• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

London Midland 321s/319s discussion

Status
Not open for further replies.

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
104,696
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
That's excellent. I wonder which subclass they'll come from. Probably all three judging by the ones we've got so far!

Hopefully a full set of 319/2s! :)

I can't see them wanting many of the ones without First Class, though - the one unit of that class they have will I expect end up dedicated to the St Albans branch where it is a good fit. (LM, how about a dedicated livery?)
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

A0

On Moderation
Joined
19 Jan 2008
Messages
7,751
Hopefully a full set of 319/2s! :)

I can't see them wanting many of the ones without First Class, though - the one unit of that class they have will I expect end up dedicated to the St Albans branch where it is a good fit. (LM, how about a dedicated livery?)

Given the pressure to provide seats, I'd expect LM to ensure that any loss of seating by moving to the 319s from the 321s is kept to an absolute minimum - and that may mean re-seating them to 3+2.

As for a 'dedicated livery' - why on earth would LM want to waste money doing that? They have a perfectly good livery which looks smart and seems to weather reasonably well.

If you put a dedicated livery for one line (St Albans Abbey branch) you then have the challenge of ensuring the unit stays there - same problem many of the bus operators have when they do 'route specific' liveries.

Hopefully the 319s are only a stop-gap in any case and LM will find a way to off-load them for something else (which is what they'd hoped to do with the 321s when they received the 350s).
 

westcoaster

Established Member
Joined
4 Dec 2006
Messages
4,333
Location
DTOS A or B
319/4s have 2+1 seating in First Class too. All the 319s used to have dividing doors to the First Class accommodation but they are being removed as the units go for PRM-TSI mods. 319/2s have more FC accommodation than the 319/4s, half a driving vehicle rather than just between the cab and the first set of doors on 319/4s.

This has now been changed 319220 has lost the small first class section, and is now the same layout as the 319/4's.
 

DarloRich

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
31,211
Location
Fenny Stratford
Given the pressure to provide seats, I'd expect LM to ensure that any loss of seating by moving to the 319s from the 321s is kept to an absolute minimum - and that may mean re-seating them to 3+2.

As for a 'dedicated livery' - why on earth would LM want to waste money doing that? They have a perfectly good livery which looks smart and seems to weather reasonably well.

If you put a dedicated livery for one line (St Albans Abbey branch) you then have the challenge of ensuring the unit stays there - same problem many of the bus operators have when they do 'route specific' liveries.

Hopefully the 319s are only a stop-gap in any case and LM will find a way to off-load them for something else (which is what they'd hoped to do with the 321s when they received the 350s).

So you suggest spend money fiddling on with the interior while not spending money on the exterior. I would suggest LM they will spend nothing on them at all! I would suggest it is more likely FC provision will be reduced.
 
Last edited:

A0

On Moderation
Joined
19 Jan 2008
Messages
7,751
So you suggest spend money fiddling on with the interior while not spending money on the exterior. I would LM they will spend nothing on them at all! I would suggest it is more likely FC provision will be reduced.

Not quite - I'm suggesting that the interior may need refurbishment anyway, in which case standardising them as 3+2 standard class, 2+2 first class in the way the 321s were would make most sense (much as Neil Williams will hate that idea - so it has at least one merit).

On the exterior if they need re-painting, then it only makes sense to put them in the standard LM livery - there's no point in developing a specific livery either for the 319s as a class nor for the St Albans Abbey branch - which let's be honest is a pretty insignificant part of LM's operations - it'd be a bit like suggesting a dedicated livery for the Bedford - Bletchley line......
 

DarloRich

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
31,211
Location
Fenny Stratford
Not quite - I'm suggesting that the interior may need refurbishment anyway, in which case standardising them as 3+2 standard class, 2+2 first class in the way the 321s were would make most sense (much as Neil Williams will hate that idea - so it has at least one merit).

On the exterior if they need re-painting, then it only makes sense to put them in the standard LM livery - there's no point in developing a specific livery either for the 319s as a class nor for the St Albans Abbey branch - which let's be honest is a pretty insignificant part of LM's operations - it'd be a bit like suggesting a dedicated livery for the Bedford - Bletchley line......

They did nothing with the 321's so i bet they do nothing with the 319's ;)

Agree there is no point liverying ( is that a word) them up. LM have painted one white and stuck some stickers on. That will do it. Although a Marston Vale specific livery is interesting...............
 

zn1

Member
Joined
3 Sep 2011
Messages
435
London Midland did nothing to sort out the interior of their 321 fleet, having used one on a late nighter from Wolverton to northampton, I jumped on one these old friends and was dismayed to see the state of her, threadbare seats, ripped carpet, doors in a vile state, other passengers even asked what my problem was and I told them im surprised its allowed to run in this state as she was well overdue a Code 6, Recommended this to London Midland who fobbed me off. Personally I hope they Take better care of the 319's they are taking on, if they can look after them, then the crews will take care of em, and the passengers will like them..I suspect as such a small sub fleet the LM 321s had become a pain and were being run in to the ground with abs min maintenance until they could hand them back...that seems now to have happened....I hope that Scotrail look after em better than London Midland did..
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
104,696
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
As for a 'dedicated livery' - why on earth would LM want to waste money doing that?

It's quite a good sales pitch and looks better than all over white!

If you put a dedicated livery for one line (St Albans Abbey branch) you then have the challenge of ensuring the unit stays there

Unless more of the same subclass are obtained, it will, as it makes no sense putting a unit without first class on the mainline.

Hopefully the 319s are only a stop-gap in any case and LM will find a way to off-load them for something else (which is what they'd hoped to do with the 321s when they received the 350s).

Logic would be the 350/4s, with those replaced by something a bit less suburban EMU, but the delay to TPE electrification and various other factors have made that much less likely.
 

DarloRich

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
31,211
Location
Fenny Stratford
350 on the 0714 from Beltcho this morning
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
EDIT - the rumoured reason being that the Abbey line 319 is U/S with wheelflats
 

A0

On Moderation
Joined
19 Jan 2008
Messages
7,751
It's quite a good sales pitch and looks better than all over white!

Which as a concept is fine - but we're talking about a 6.5 mile branch line which runs to the secondary station in St Albans.

The line isn't visible from roadside for virtually all of its length and the units which work it aren't visible at Watford Junc owing to the platform it uses - so who would actually see this 'sales pitch' other than people who already use the line?

All over white makes perfect sense - grey would be the alternative - as they are sensible 'base' coats over which different colours or vinyls could be applied.


Logic would be the 350/4s, with those replaced by something a bit less suburban EMU, but the delay to TPE electrification and various other factors have made that much less likely.

For a change, I agree with you on the 350/4s to LM.

Not sure that your logic that TPE warrants something different to the 350s - given the stopping patterns they have, the units need to balance the long-distance nature of the route with the ability to have short dwell times where there are regular stops. It's the same issue XC has with some of their services or, for that matter, LM have with their London - Crewe service.
 

plastictaffy

Member
Joined
18 Nov 2012
Messages
1,104
Location
Unfortunately, Maps has stopped.
So you suggest spend money fiddling on with the interior while not spending money on the exterior. I would suggest LM they will spend nothing on them at all! I would suggest it is more likely FC provision will be reduced.

I would suggest spending some money on getting the damn things working properly first!!!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
All over white makes perfect sense - grey would be the alternative - as they are sensible 'base' coats over which different colours or vinyls could be applied.

Those units will probably stay as they are until either LM give the franchise back or they manage to palm off the woefully crap 319's to another TOC.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
104,696
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Not sure that your logic that TPE warrants something different to the 350s - given the stopping patterns they have, the units need to balance the long-distance nature of the route with the ability to have short dwell times where there are regular stops. It's the same issue XC has with some of their services or, for that matter, LM have with their London - Crewe service.

The stopping pattern of the Scottish services is InterCity - Manchester Picc, Manchester Oxford Road (ICs never used to stop, but that was I think platform length), Wigan NW, Preston, Lancaster, Oxenholme, Penrith, Carlisle, Lockerbie, Haymarket, Edinburgh. That isn't a regional express, it's InterCity, and is broadly the same as the VTs.

Something like a "Class 344", preferably 5 or 6x23m, would be ideal for these services. Perhaps Siemens might consider making an end-doored version of the new-generation Desiro? I saw some for the first time in Edinburgh last week, and the massive windows in the central section must make them feel lovely and airy. But preferably with the super-sized Desiro luggage racks remaining - my very large (but not overly heavy) case fitted nicely above my head.

Notably, the 1612 EDB-MIA yesterday, which I was on throughout except the last bit to t'Airport, suffered serious overcrowding as ever - but only from Lancaster to Preston. Time for more local services on this stretch perhaps?
 
Last edited:

fgwrich

Established Member
Joined
15 Apr 2009
Messages
9,861
Location
Hampshire

MK Tom

Established Member
Joined
31 Aug 2011
Messages
2,439
Location
Milton Keynes
It's Network South East seating. 321413 went from NSE to Silverlink to LM and now Overground and has kept the same seating throughout.
 

causton

Established Member
Joined
4 Aug 2010
Messages
5,504
Location
Somewhere between WY372 and MV7
It's Network South East seating. 321413 went from NSE to Silverlink to LM and now Overground and has kept the same seating throughout.

Except the photo shows otherwise...?!?!?

Those were probably the seats that had big slashes through them that I noticed on the last week of 413 on the Abbey line, didn't notice they had been recovered though!
 

87015

Established Member
Joined
3 Mar 2006
Messages
4,987
Location
GEML/WCML/SR
Except the photo shows otherwise...?!?!?

Those were probably the seats that had big slashes through them that I noticed on the last week of 413 on the Abbey line, didn't notice they had been recovered though!

Correct, LM declined to repair / replace them prior to sending them off lease. Just like they didn't remove their branding and a few other bits they should have done. True LM fashion, don't do it if it might cost more than 5p...
 

causton

Established Member
Joined
4 Aug 2010
Messages
5,504
Location
Somewhere between WY372 and MV7
We don't even have enough seat covers to do the new 319s in, let alone repair trains that we're sending away! ;)

They weren't exactly kept in pristine condition so I doubt they really cared about how they were sending them away, to be reformed or just to go to Ilford!
 

ChiefPlanner

Established Member
Joined
6 Sep 2011
Messages
8,083
Location
Herts
Correct, LM declined to repair / replace them prior to sending them off lease. Just like they didn't remove their branding and a few other bits they should have done. True LM fashion, don't do it if it might cost more than 5p...


Anyone would think LM was trying to keep costs down - the Abbey units had Silverlink era Network maps in existance only 6 weeks ago...poor show. (and I hope passengers were not misled by this over the years):roll:
 

MK Tom

Established Member
Joined
31 Aug 2011
Messages
2,439
Location
Milton Keynes
Well yeah the LM covers being on a few of them was pretty shocking hence why I photoed it, but the fact it retains virtually full NSE interior after three operators and two decades is pretty incredible.
 

RPM

Established Member
Joined
24 Sep 2009
Messages
1,499
Location
Buckinghamshire
Well yeah the LM covers being on a few of them was pretty shocking hence why I photoed it, but the fact it retains virtually full NSE interior after three operators and two decades is pretty incredible.

Whilst it is the case that LM did precisely nothing with the 321 interiors during their tenure, it isn't actually true that they retain NSE interiors. They do indeed have NSE moquette on the seats (fairly remarkable in itself) but, seat covers notwithstanding, they were refurbished by Silverlink. In NSE days they had unpainted silver grab handles and Edward Pond murals on the end bulkheads.
 

causton

Established Member
Joined
4 Aug 2010
Messages
5,504
Location
Somewhere between WY372 and MV7
Well yeah the LM covers being on a few of them was pretty shocking hence why I photoed it, but the fact it retains virtually full NSE interior after three operators and two decades is pretty incredible.

Those aren't LM covers though, as said earlier (which I presume is correct!) it is First Great Eastern style seating moquette! The LM one is just like the Desiros, a brighter green with the white and green circles. LM just sent them straight over without doing anything and I guess when Abellio/LOROL got the train they decided they had to fix it up before it went in service!

It is even worse now re: out of date maps as many of the patches covering up Silverlink have been removed!
 

MK Tom

Established Member
Joined
31 Aug 2011
Messages
2,439
Location
Milton Keynes
Oh I see! That makes more sense now, I'm guessing they're spare seats from GA 321s then. Now you say it I can see the difference.
 

Bungle965

Established Member
Associate Staff
Buses & Coaches
Joined
2 Jul 2014
Messages
3,172
Location
Calder Valley
18:10 and 18:32 return has been cancelled this on the Abbey line evening due to a train defect. Road transport ordered.
Oh dear.
Sam
 

causton

Established Member
Joined
4 Aug 2010
Messages
5,504
Location
Somewhere between WY372 and MV7
Was on it earlier in the afternoon when it had a interlock/brake release problem, did an emergency stop outside Park Street and stopped at How Wood for 8 minutes while they checked all the alarms were still sealed/doors weren't obstructed... no surprise it has been cancelled tonight... not the most reliable introduction of trains!

Don't think there will be a new diagram set quite yet with the failure rate, probably at the moment 2 on the peak BLY workings, 1 Abbey and 1 spare. Any more and you'd just have even more cancellations :o
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
104,696
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Whilst it is the case that LM did precisely nothing with the 321 interiors during their tenure, it isn't actually true that they retain NSE interiors. They do indeed have NSE moquette on the seats (fairly remarkable in itself) but, seat covers notwithstanding, they were refurbished by Silverlink. In NSE days they had unpainted silver grab handles and Edward Pond murals on the end bulkheads.

Given that the Silverlink refurb was very comprehensive (new tables, repanelling inside, repainting metal, new light diffusers, carpets etc) it was very surprising they didn't do the seats (and they didn't do them at all - it wasn't even redone with the ex-NSE fabric, the seats are the originals except for a few that were replaced due to being in particularly poor condition).

I do rue the passing of the NSE murals, though - I thought they were a very nice touch.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top