LONDON Routeing

[maniacmartin]

Yet another question on the minefield that is LONDON...

I have a hypothetical ticket whose mapped routes include something like
AB+LONDON+CD
(AB and CD are example names)

The Routeing Guide instructions say:

STEP 6
If the routeing code is "LONDON", for all journeys via London you will need to
cross reference routeing codes applicable "to London" with the code for the
"from London" leg of the journey.

AB includes mapped routes to several London terminals from the origin Routeing Group - lets say to London Bridge, Cannon St, Blackfriars , Waterloo East and Charing Cross

CD includes mapped routes to the destination Routeing Group - lets say from Waterloo and Victoria.

Am I obliged to use the same London terminal that they have in common (in this case Waterloo) or can I decide to enter LONDON at one terminal and depart from another? I'm assuming I can, as the NRG doesn't say otherwise, and many journeys such as Reading to Southend do this, however there a complication in that the 2 maps in my example share a London terminal in common.

If the routeing code is "LONDON", journeys include the cost of cross-London
transfer either by London Underground or Thameslink services. In all cases
the transfer points should be along the correct line of route given by the
‘permitted route’ map combinations.

The via London, Maltese Cross symbol on a ticket signifies that the ticket
may be used via London Underground or Thameslink services. Unless a ticket
specifies that the journey must be made via London, passengers are free to
use an alternative ‘permitted route’ for their journey as provided by the
Routeing Guide.

In some instances (particularly long distance cross country journeys) the
Manual will show an "any permitted" fare but without the via London, Maltese
cross symbol. Reference to Section C (the “yellow pages”) may show via
London to be a permitted route for this journey and in such instances travel
via London to include cross-London transfer would be permitted.

Choosing different London terminals would still be along the correct line of route given by 'permitted route' map combinations, so does this mean I can take the tube between my chosen London terminals even though the ticket doesn't have a maltese cross? Obvously LU gateline staff would give a lot of grief if it appears to be off-route.

 

[island]

What's the route on your ticket?

 

[yorkie]

You do not have to join the maps via 'LONDON' at any London Group station (indeed some people argue you cannot do this at certain stations - though I disagree with them!) there is absolutely no requirement whatsoever to arrive/depart at the same London Terminal!

If there was, then York to Shenfield would only be permitted via Cambridge, or York to Dover would only be permitted via Sheffield & HS1 and so on....!

 

[maniacmartin]

If this was a season ticket, would I be able to ride the appropriate LU sections as many times as I liked?

Obviously once a BoJ has happened at an LU station that isn't an appropriate London Terminal, one can't resume there, but is there anything to stop a passenger just going to another appropriate London Terminal LU station and re-entering the system?

I've never come across any season tickets with a Maltese cross, but the instructions quoted above do not say that they don't apply to seasons.

 

[Mojo]

I've never come across any season tickets with a Maltese cross, but the instructions quoted above do not say that they don't apply to seasons.

I'm sure there must be an exception; but Seasons involving travelling via different London Terminals wouldn't typically have a Maltese cross, but would be a customised season, with unlimited travel in zones 1-6. For some flows (eg. Reading to Milton Keynes) the fare is already in the system, but elsewhere the fare would be manually calculated.

 

[maniacmartin]

I think the exception may just be that flows with LU validity are not supposed to be entered into the fares database with season tickets, unless the season tickets include zonal travel or is routed LONDON NOT UND or another route that bars travel via London.

But there are a few that seem to have been forgotten about.

Some of these have Maltese crosses, but not travelcards, such as Cuffley to Brentwood 7DS; but some don't have Maltese crosses.

In the case of Cuffley to Brentwood, it has a Maltese cross so I can't see any reason why that wouldn't be valid for unlimited travel on the relevant LU sections, and for cross-less tickets ATOC's instructions say that if a ticket is routed LONDON, then the relevant LU is included anyway.

 

[Mojo]

In the case of Cuffley to Brentwood, it has a Maltese cross so I can't see any reason why that wouldn't be valid for unlimited travel on the relevant LU sections.

I agree. I cannot see why this ticket would not be valid to enter the Underground at recognised interchange stations and to exit at any station on a reasonable route.

 

[34D]

If this was a season ticket, would I be able to ride the appropriate LU sections as many times as I liked?

Obviously once a BoJ has happened at an LU station that isn't an appropriate London Terminal, one can't resume there, but is there anything to stop a passenger just going to another appropriate London Terminal LU station and re-entering the system?

I've never come across any season tickets with a Maltese cross, but the instructions quoted above do not say that they don't apply to seasons.

If there was a maltese cross season, could entry to the tube system be at any appropriate LU station, example entering at Oxford Circus on a Finsbury Park to Clapham Junction season?

Obviously we are all in agreement that this can't be done on a single/return ticket.

 

[maniacmartin]

My reading of the Routeing Guide instructions is that resuming a BoJ at a LU station that isn't where one changes between NR and LU is not permitted, and I don't see why that restriction would be waived for season tickets

 

[yorkie]

I think the exception may just be that flows with LU validity are not supposed to be entered into the fares database with season tickets, unless the season tickets include zonal travel or is routed LONDON NOT UND or another route that bars travel via London.

But there are a few that seem to have been forgotten about.

Some of these have Maltese crosses, but not travelcards, such as Cuffley to Brentwood 7DS; but some don't have Maltese crosses.

In the case of Cuffley to Brentwood, it has a Maltese cross so I can't see any reason why that wouldn't be valid for unlimited travel on the relevant LU sections, and for cross-less tickets ATOC's instructions say that if a ticket is routed LONDON, then the relevant LU is included anyway.

Agreed. It has to be valid for unlimited cross-London transfers on appropriate routes. However this particular ticket is poor value.

A custom 7Day Travelcard Season would cost:

£78.40 Brentwood - London Zones 1-6
£68.90 Cuffley - London Zones 1-6
-£53.40 in-boundary London Zones 1-6
Total: £93.90

So it seems odd that such a Season exists, and at a higher price than a more flexible Travelcard. It should be abolished.

 

[Mojo]

If there was a maltese cross season, could entry to the tube system be at any appropriate LU station, example entering at Oxford Circus on a Finsbury Park to Clapham Junction season?

No, because you are only able to enter the system at the recognised interchange stations. That is the stations listed here, plus Stratford Int'l DLR. You can also enter at the listed stations on inter-available routes.

 

[craigwilson]

I'm sure there must be an exception; but Seasons involving travelling via different London Terminals wouldn't typically have a Maltese cross, but would be a customised season, with unlimited travel in zones 1-6. For some flows (eg. Reading to Milton Keynes) the fare is already in the system, but elsewhere the fare would be manually calculated.

So effectively a 7-day (or indeed longer) Travelcard, but to a specific destination station, rather than to the general "London Zones 1-6" destination?

And in that case I'm assuming they'd have the TfL roundel printed on the top?

 

[bb21]

So effectively a 7-day (or indeed longer) Travelcard, but to a specific destination station, rather than to the general "London Zones 1-6" destination?

And in that case I'm assuming they'd have the TfL roundel printed on the top?

Not really.

For a start, it is not valid throughout all stations within Zones 1-6.

 

[maniacmartin]

Not really.

For a start, it is not valid throughout all stations within Zones 1-6.

The Cuffley to Brentwood +Any Permitted isn't, but the Reading to Milton Keynes is in BRFares as Route: London Zones 1-6. Surely that is valid throughout all Z1-6 stations?

 

[bb21]

The Cuffley to Brentwood +Any Permitted isn't, but the Reading to Milton Keynes is in BRFares as Route: London Zones 1-6. Surely that is valid throughout all Z1-6 stations?

That is a customised Travelcard. They are two completely different products.

A customised Travelcard is of course valid for unlimited travel throughout Zones 1-6.

 

[yorkie]

If origin & destination are both OUTSIDE Zones 1-6, and the passenger wishes to purchase a Season ticket for travel via Zones 1-6, then a custom Travelcard Season can be calculated as described in post #10.

There are not supposed to be any Seasons that include Travel on LU (other than certain joint routes) that are not Travelcards.

That means the Brentwood - Cuffley +Any Permitted Season should not exist. It is a mistake.

Instead a passenger should be issued with a custom Travelcard Season instead.

 

[RJ]

If origin & destination are both OUTSIDE Zones 1-6, and the passenger wishes to purchase a Season ticket for travel via Zones 1-6, then a custom Travelcard Season can be calculated as described in post #10.

There are not supposed to be any Seasons that include Travel on LU (other than certain joint routes) that are not Travelcards.

That means the Brentwood - Cuffley +Any Permitted Season should not exist. It is a mistake.

Instead a passenger should be issued with a custom Travelcard Season instead.

There are still quite a few however. Pretty sure I saw a +Not Via Clapham Junction routed season available the other day!

 

[kieron]

My reading of the Routeing Guide instructions is that resuming a BoJ at a LU station that isn't where one changes between NR and LU is not permitted, and I don't see why that restriction would be waived for season tickets

Perhaps not, but it is anyway.

"A ticket which entitles you to travel on the London Underground and/or Docklands Light Railway does not entitle you to break and resume your journey at any of the stations on these networks unless it is a Season Ticket or a Travelcard."