London Terminals - has something changed?

[Surreytraveller]

Not listed on the official routing guide easements which I see was updated on 30th August

Its not an 'easement' as such, it is dual availability - which has existed since long before the concept of easements came about.

 

[OwenB]

It's not the first time unknowledgeable staff have made false allegations that a customer's valid ticket is no valid at Moorgate, and it won't be the last.

Peterborough to London Terminals is valid to Moorgate, and you may use LU between Finsbury Park and Moorgate, as well as between King's Cross and Moorgate, as per the inter-availability rules.

Inter-availability is different; there is no easement required.

Was London Thameslink a thing back then?

It sounds like the gates have been reprogrammed not to accept the tickets, from what I can make out, would that have been done from "above" rather than the man on the gate?

 

[Surreytraveller]

Was London Thameslink a thing back then?

I seem to recollect being able to bring the destination of 'London Thameslink' up on APTIS machines, but being employed south of the Thames, it wasn't a destination we used - it was something for people north of the Thames. If a passenger wanted a destination north of City Thameslink (which was the furthest London BR was valid), it was issued to 'Farringdon UND', or 'Kings Cross Thameslink' as a point to point for us southerners (or equally 'Zone U1' was valid on Thameslink too).

 

[rebmcr]

There are two sets of gates at Moorgate and you will be exiting from the wrong set. I always wondered why they had two!!

There are stairs connecting at least the LU Northern and GTR Northern City platforms, I believed? I'm not 100% sure where that surfaces any more after the remodelling.

 

[westv]

There are two sets of gates at Moorgate and you will be exiting from the wrong set. I always wondered why they had two!!

There's also an exit with no gates - or there was when I last went that way earlier in the year.

 

[Hadders]

Tickets to London Thameslink are not valid to Moorgate.

Tickets to London Terminals with validity into Kings Cross are also valid to Moorgate via the Underground. This is a long standing (40+ year)inter-availability agreement and has nothing to do with temporary easements as a result of the Thameslink shambles.

This was all publicised by GTR just before 20th May - I’ll see if I can find a copy of the leaflet.

Total incompetence on the part of LU here by the looks of things.

 

[Bletchleyite]

LU not accepting tickets that they should accept is nothing new. They were meant to accept First Class Caledonian Sleeper tickets in ScotRail days for a single journey in zone 1, and when I told Euston ticket office of their refusal to do so it was met with a sigh of it being about the 250th time they had been told they were not doing as they were meant to do - and even a telephone call to the gateline was met with flat refusal, the only solution being to purchase a single ticket and reclaim it from ScotRail (who did cough up, so must also have known of the issue).

The only solution in the end was to withdraw that acceptance; LU staff simply wouldn't be told.

 

[greyman42]

There's also an exit with no gates - or there was when I last went that way earlier in the year.

That was still the case a few weeks ago. It is the one most people use coming off the Circle/Metropolitan line.

 

[Surreytraveller]

The only solution in the end was to withdraw that acceptance; LU staff simply wouldn't be told.

With LU you need to keep things simple. Zones are simple. Things like 1st Class Caledonian Sleeper tickets are complicated - how would LU recognise that?

 

[yorkie]

LU not accepting tickets that they should accept is nothing new. They were meant to accept First Class Caledonian Sleeper tickets in ScotRail days for a single journey in zone 1, and when I told Euston ticket office of their refusal to do so it was met with a sigh of it being about the 250th time they had been told they were not doing as they were meant to do - and even a telephone call to the gateline was met with flat refusal, the only solution being to purchase a single ticket and reclaim it from ScotRail (who did cough up, so must also have known of the issue).

The only solution in the end was to withdraw that acceptance; LU staff simply wouldn't be told.

Yes. It's a big problem with all sorts of tickets.

I don't think the problem of non-compliance by LU gateline assistants will ever be solved.

I have my thoughts on why that may be the case but I'd perhaps best not post them here, as it risks going off-topic.

Suffice to say they'd not get away with such behaviour in our jobs!

 

[OwenB]

This was about London Terminals tickets no longer going through the gates at Moorgate and the member of staff subsequently not letting them through. Judging by Twitter this has happened to a few people specifically in the last few days. This is a long standing ticket validity, so something must have changed (whether erroneously or not) for the gates to no longer automatically let you through.

 

[Bletchleyite]

With LU you need to keep things simple. Zones are simple. Things like 1st Class Caledonian Sleeper tickets are complicated - how would LU recognise that?

Given that I believe this validity was only available on arrival at Euston, briefing the gateline staff at one station and for them to remember this between about 0700 and 0900 is hardly the proverbial rocket science.

 

[jon0844]

Seems people on Twitter are being told GTR is investigating, with the belief tickets are still valid as they always were. That said in the past even GTR has said they aren't. It's only really since May they recognised the validity.

Do people still want TfL to take over?!

 

[Hadders]

There really isn't anything to investigate. Surely all that needs to happen is an appropriate manager at GTR contacts an appropriate manager at TfL. They look it up in their Ticketing and Revenue Manual (if they don't already know) and issue an instruction to Kings Cross St Pancras, Finsbury Park, Highbury & Islington, Old Street and Moorgate.

Why is this so hard now that we have electronic communication.

I wonder is TfL have removed other inter-available routes in error.

 

[mmh]

It did for a period of time after Moorgate closed to Thameslink services. However I think that is long gone.

"London Thameslink" was only created this year. When Thameslink stopped serving Barbican and Moorgate, which had long been an inter-available LU/BR route, they continued to allow London Terminals tickets on the Underground between King's Cross and them

 

[swt_passenger]

It did for a period of time after Moorgate closed to Thameslink services. However I think that is long gone.

Fares from the MML to Moorgate had to be issued to the named station, and they indeed had a short term validity on LU following the closure procedure. Moorgate was never a part of the London Thameslink fares group.

 

[BluePenguin]

This is spot on. London Thameslink does not include Moorgate (I don't think it ever did).

Yes it did, but long ago

 

[Hadders]

"London Thameslink" was only created this year. When Thameslink stopped serving Barbican and Moorgate, which had long been an inter-available LU/BR route, they continued to allow London Terminals tickets on the Underground between King's Cross and them

This is incorrect. London Thameslink has been a destination from stations on the Midland Mainline between Kentish Town/Bedford and London for many years (probably from 1989 when Thameslink services started). I'm not sure what the ticketing arrangements were for Barbican and Moorgate were when they were served by direct Thameslink trains.

London Thameslink was set up as a destination earlier this year from Great Northern stations and from Southern Thameslink served stations.

The inter-availability issue being discussed here dates back to the closure of the hotel curve in 1976. It is an important inter-availability and is needed now more than ever, particularly for passengers travelling from stations on the Hertford loop to Kings Cross at weekends. TfL are refusing valid tickets without good reason.

 

[swt_passenger]

This is incorrect. London Thameslink has been a destination from stations on the Midland Mainline between Kentish Town/Bedford and London for many years (probably from 1989 when Thameslink services started). I'm not sure what the ticketing arrangements were for Barbican and Moorgate were when they were served by direct Thameslink trains.
.

Yes it did, but long ago

You needed a ticket to Barbican or Moorgate. Back in the days of paper NFMs they included a route diagram showing the coverage of London Thameslink, and Moorgate and Barbican were ‘outside the box’...

I’ll try and find a quote from it later today...

 

[furlong]

It's all in the TTA.

9. KENTISH TOWN - KING’S CROSS - MOORGATE
FARRINGDON - LONDON BRIDGE/ELEPHANT & CASTLE

Thameslink Interavailable Route means the route(s) between Kentish Town, King’s Cross/King’s Cross Thameslink, Farringdon, Barbican, Moorgate, City Thameslink, Blackfriars, London Bridge, Elephant & Castle

Ticket type: Single and return tickets

Valid for travel: by Railway Services to/from “London Thameslink”
Also Available: By London Underground between Kentish Town, King’s Cross, Farringdon, Barbican, Moorgate, Blackfriars, London Bridge and Elephant & Castle but NOT VALID AT ANY OTHER LUL STATION

Valid for travel: by Railway Services via Kentish Town to/from “London Terminals”
Also Available: by London Underground between Kentish Town and King’s Cross

Valid for travel: by Railway Services to/from any Thameslink Interavailable Route stations
Also Available: by London Underground between those Thameslink Interavailable Route stations for which the ticket is valid by Railway Services (except as below - see note3)

3 Operator-issued Point-to-Point tickets for journeys locally between Thameslink Interavailable Route stations are not valid by London Underground, nor are any tickets bearing the route “Thameslink Only” or “Not Underground” or “London Not Underground”, nor are any tickets issued to “London Terminals” from stations south of the Thameslink Interavailable Route.


Ticket type: Season tickets4

Valid for travel:between King’s Cross and Kentish Town, regardless of issuing point
Also Available: by London Underground and Railway Services between King’s Cross and Kentish Town

Valid for travel: by Railway Services to/from Thameslink Interavailable Route stations via Kentish Town
Also Available: by London Underground between those stations for which the ticket is valid by Railway Services

4 Operator-issued Season tickets for journeys locally between Thameslink Interavailable Route stations are not valid by London Underground

 

[MikeWh]

I think I know what has happened. This is from a FOI request in the summer and is an extract of the "Ask Olly" page in the internal Ticketing and Revenue publication by TfL.

Ask Olly

• MikeWh
• 5 Aug 2018

 

[furlong]

So there you are! Someone didn't do their bedtime reading!

No change to validity, merely a switch to manual intervention to confirm each passenger's destination. Let's hope they put up one of their large posters shortly reminding people of the validity to Moorgate and telling people affected how to obtain compensation for the contractual breach. Or the relevant TOCs could write to affected season ticket holders and bill LU for the cost?

 

[OwenB]

Great info, that sounds like the reason. It is going to be a bit of a pain in the backside for people who do this journey every day. I guess needs must if people are using the tickets to other stations, whether accidentally or not. Very important that the gateline staff are reminded of ticket availability prior to the gate settings being changed and sounds like LU have fallen down in this respect.

 

[Hadders]

I think I know what has happened. This is from a FOI request in the summer and is an extract of the "Ask Olly" page in the internal Ticketing and Revenue publication by TfL.

Ask Olly

• MikeWh
• 5 Aug 2018

So TfL do half a job. They reprogram the barriers but fail to tell their staff that they need to manually allow passengers with valid tickets through.

Absolutely typical and slaps of TfL trying to withdraw the inter-availability by stealth.

I'm in London later this afternoon, if I have time I might try a bit of mystery shopping.

 

[island]

Given that I believe this validity was only available on arrival at Euston, briefing the gateline staff at one station and for them to remember this between about 0700 and 0900 is hardly the proverbial rocket science.

It’s not that simple really, as they could want to exit anywhere.

 

[OwenB]

Absolutely typical and slaps of TfL trying to withdraw the inter-availability by stealth.

I'm going to be livid if they do, our offices are moving to Moorgate in November.

 

[Surreytraveller]

So TfL do half a job. They reprogram the barriers but fail to tell their staff that they need to manually allow passengers with valid tickets through.

Absolutely typical and slaps of TfL trying to withdraw the inter-availability by stealth.

I'm in London later this afternoon, if I have time I might try a bit of mystery shopping.

Some 20 year-old manager with a diploma has probably gone around and told the staff London Terminals tickets are no longer valid, without having any knowledge of the long-standing Kings Cross/Finsbury Park/Moorgate interavailability, and none of the staff have pulled him up on it.

 

[jon0844]

Some 20 year-old manager with a diploma has probably gone around and told the staff London Terminals tickets are no longer valid, without having any knowledge of the long-standing Kings Cross/Finsbury Park/Moorgate interavailability, and none of the staff have pulled him up on it.

Reminds me of the fun trying to get home from Highbury & Islington once as I couldn't get in with a London Terminals ticket with staff claiming I had to have traveled from Moorgate. Eventually a supervisor let me through but it felt like they were doing it as a favour.

The barrier rejected the ticket and clearly that made staff jump to the conclusion it was invalid, despite it clearly being a break in journey.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Reminds me of the fun trying to get home from Highbury & Islington once as I couldn't get in with a London Terminals ticket with staff claiming I had to have traveled from Moorgate. Eventually a supervisor let me through but it felt like they were doing it as a favour.

The barrier rejected the ticket and clearly that made staff jump to the conclusion it was invalid, despite it clearly being a break in journey.

I think it is said upthread that this easement does not allow break of journey in any form (unlike a cross London transfer where starting or ending short is allowed but break and resume is not).

 

[Bletchleyite]

It’s not that simple really, as they could want to exit anywhere.

Fair point. I was surprised they didn't just issue the ticket to Zone U1 Londn which would have solved the problem including opening the barriers.