London Terminals - has something changed?

mailman

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I purchased my usual ticket from Peterborough to London this morning but got stopped at the barrier to the underground saying London Terminals no longer meant Moorgate??

Has something changed in the last couple weeks where you can now no longer travel between Kings Cross and Moorgate??

A chap with a season ticket also got stopped from entering the underground, and quite rightly so he was really miffed (so would I have I had forked out 5 big ones for a season ticket that no longer works to where I need to go!).

Thanks in advance.

Regards

Mailman
 
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maniacmartin

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It sounds like whoever stopped you has got confused between the validity of London Terminals tickets (no change that I am aware of), and London Thameslink tickets (valid through the Thameslink core to Elephant & Castle or London Bridge but not to Moorgate as far as I know).
 

mailman

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Its a bit more of a problem than that as it was the barrier that didn't open and only after asking the man to let me through did I get the "London Terminals no longer includes Moorgate". This is when the season ticket holder got stopped and he demanded the station manager come down to explain why this change had taken place when no commination had been shared with commuters.
 

Haywain

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It sounds like whoever stopped you has got confused between the validity of London Terminals tickets (no change that I am aware of), and London Thameslink tickets (valid through the Thameslink core to Elephant & Castle or London Bridge but not to Moorgate as far as I know).
This is spot on. London Thameslink does not include Moorgate (I don't think it ever did).
 

rdwarr

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Twitter is full of this today. LU staff are not accepting London Terminals tickets from King's X to Moorgate on the basis that they are 'No longer valid from 4th September'.

I don't think it's related to the London Thameslink confusion due to the use of the phrase 'no longer'.
 

Haywain

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Sorry for being slow...but is Great Northern and Thameslink the same train company?
They are brands operated by Govia Thameslink Railway, so yes. However, a ticket from Peterborough to London could be issued with a destination of either London Terminals or London Thameslink. This doesn't matter if you are only travelling to Kings Cross or St Pancras, but is very relevant if you are going to Moorgate or to Farringdon and beyond.
 

maniacmartin

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Possibly of interest, National Rail's London Terminals page looks to have recently been updated to include some maps, and the LU connection is absent. Given the apparent change in gateline programming, and this specific mention of a 4th September date, I wonder if it's worth contacting LU and/or submitting a new FoI request to TfL to see if there have been any alterations to the Through Ticketing (Non-Travelcard) Agreement?

Either way, it seems poor practice to apply a detrimental change to existing season tickets that have already been sold before the change was announced.
 
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Bletchleyite

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Either way, I seems poor practice to apply a detrimental change to existing season tickets that have already been sold before the change was announced.
Potentially, in the circumstances, actually a breach of contract? And if so, I'm sure the City contains quite a few people who work in the legal profession who might well seek to mount a challenge to it for existing season tickets, as the upgrade to a Travelcard is quite a substantial sum on a new annual ticket.

Edit: or not. Ref this thread:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/london-thameslink-stations.32707/

When the Thameslink route still served them, tickets were issued to 'Barbican Und' and 'Moorgate Und' and 'London Thameslink' tickets were not valid there. I believe the agreement was that TfL would carry passengers (via LU) with tickets to either of these two destinations for 2 years after the branch shut.
 

mailman

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So Great Northern, through twitter is saying London Terminal tickets are valid to Moorgate while London Thameslink is not BUT yeah...not helped by everyone being lumped in together by LU and being stopped getting through the gates to begin with.
 

Bletchleyite

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So Great Northern, through twitter is saying London Terminal tickets are valid to Moorgate while London Thameslink is not BUT yeah...not helped by everyone being lumped in together by LU and being stopped getting through the gates to begin with.
London *Terminals* to Moorgate are presumably valid via the Great Northern trains and not LU though?
 

deltic

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Were these easements in place for the London Bridge works which are now finished and hence removed?
 

westv

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The Kings X to Moorgate/Old Street easement for tickets issue on the ECML to London terminals has been in place for many years.
 

mailman

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Bletchleyite, this is where Im getting confused. Ive always been able to use the LU between Kings Cross and Moorgate (until this morning that is) and I was travelling on a London Terminals ticket to boot.
 

Bletchleyite

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The Kings X to Moorgate/Old Street easement for tickets issue on the ECML to London terminals has been in place for many years.
Ah, here's a reference on that one:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ection-7-integrated-fares.70022/#post-1315636

If a National Rail ticket, with a destination/origin of London Terminals is valid into/out of King's Cross, then it is also valid for travel for a direct journey between King's Cross St. Pancras and either Old Street or Moorgate only. Break of journey is not permitted.
Did this perhaps date back to when the Moorgate direct service was peak only?
 

jon0844

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There definitely needs to be clarification because the interavailable routing has been around for many, many years. To suddenly lose the ability to use the tube to Old Street and Moorgate (or Highbury & Islington) would be a major change.

Presumably whenever there's disruption ticket acceptance would kick in, but that wouldn't be any good for when there are simply large gaps in service or one single train cancelled or delayed - and someone decides to use the tube instead.
 

Haywain

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Did this perhaps date back to when the Moorgate direct service was peak only?
The thing that has changed fairly recently is that GN services to Moorgate are now operating 7 days a week and into the late evenings. In some ways it can seem anomalous to continue the ticket acceptance on LU with the improvement to GN services. However, it would be reasonable to expect that an end to the arrangement would be publicised some time in advance of coming into effect.
 

mailman

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Mystery just gets more mysterier :)

Great Northern saying ticket is still valid between Kings Cross and Moorgate and has asked their ticketing team to investigate.
 

deltic

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The Kings X to Moorgate/Old Street easement for tickets issue on the ECML to London terminals has been in place for many years.
Not listed on the official routing guide easements which I see was updated on 30th August
 

westv

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If it has changed it wouldn't be the first time a detrimental change has been hidden from passengers until it's already in place.
 

Haywain

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Not listed on the official routing guide easements which I see was updated on 30th August
I don't think that's relevant as both are considered "London" for journey planning purposes and London Terminals for ticketing purposes.
 

sharpley

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There was a TfL fare revision last weekend. All TfL gates and ticket machines updated in the early hours of Sunday to the new fare tables. No idea what changes were made to pricings or routing info but I guess this was one.
 

furlong

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It's not the routeing guide, but the Through Ticketing Agreement (Schedule 3) that would have to have been updated to remove this, as maniacmartin says.

7. FINSBURY PARK – KINGS CROSS/MOORGATE
Interavailability
Ticket type: Single, return and season tickets
Valid for travel: Between Finsbury Park or Highbury & Islington and King’s Cross or Old Street or Moorgate
Available: By London Underground to King’s Cross (and intermediately only at Highbury & Islington) and by London Underground via King’s Cross to Old Street or Moorgate (not intermediately) and by Railway Services
 

furlong

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(The TTA sets out how revenue is apportioned, and Peterborough is mentioned in that section, so I can't see an argument that it wasn't expected to cover such tickets.)
 
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The 'internal' NRE page about inter-available journeys still says this about National Rail tickets which include validity Between Finsbury Park and London Terminals:

[...] are also valid on LU/DLR services between Finsbury Park and Kings Cross/St Pancras Und. but intermediately at Highbury & Islington only (Victoria Line/Piccadilly Line) and also between Kings Cross/St Pancras Und. and Moorgate (via Circle, Metropolitan, Hammersmith & City and Northern Lines, but intermediately at Old Street ONLY

I don't think that there has been any change, and therefore LUL are incorrect.
 

rebmcr

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Given that a season ticket holder finding themselves in this position could take the following route otherwise unchallenged, perhaps LU are incentivised to carry out some RPI stings:

Exit KX NR gateline — Enter StPan Low Level gateline (as if validly starting a Northbound journey) — travel on Thameslink to Farringdon — stay within the Farringdon gatelines — travel on LU Circle to Moorgate — Exit Moorgate gateline (as if validly alighting a GN service from Finsbury Park).

The parts in red are of course not permissible on such a ticket!
 

t0ffeeman

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Given that a season ticket holder finding themselves in this position could take the following route otherwise unchallenged, perhaps LU are incentivised to carry out some RPI stings:

Exit KX NR gateline — Enter StPan Low Level gateline (as if validly starting a Northbound journey) — travel on Thameslink to Farringdon — stay within the Farringdon gatelines — travel on LU Circle to Moorgate — Exit Moorgate gateline (as if validly alighting a GN service from Finsbury Park).

The parts in red are of course not permissible on such a ticket!
There are two sets of gates at Moorgate and you will be exiting from the wrong set. I always wondered why they had two!!
 

yorkie

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It's not the first time unknowledgeable staff have made false allegations that a customer's valid ticket is no valid at Moorgate, and it won't be the last.

Peterborough to London Terminals is valid to Moorgate, and you may use LU between Finsbury Park and Moorgate, as well as between King's Cross and Moorgate, as per the inter-availability rules.
Not listed on the official routing guide easements which I see was updated on 30th August
Inter-availability is different; there is no easement required.
Not even when Thameslink went to Moorgate?
Was London Thameslink a thing back then?
 

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