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Looking down on people paying to travel 1st class: Why?

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extendedpaul

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Now I have a senior railcard I will book first class wherever possible for long journeys as there can be sone very attractive advance fares when my "old fart's discount" is applied. More legroom, slightly wider seats and less crowded. Sometimes the difference in fare is minimal. One one trip from Stevenage to Darlington the discounted advance 1st fare was just £2 more than standard.
I did exactly that when I first qualified for senior railcard. Trips from London to Inverness, Edinburgh, Glasgow and Cardiff became a bit special.

The gap between standard and first class fares on most routes I use has widened since then, but I recently booked first class Leicester to London which cost a pound less than standard class on the same train.

I'm unconvinced that people do have any sort of general downer on first class travellers anyway. Where's the evidence ? For most it's either paid for by employers or tax-deductible.
 
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Bletchleyite

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Indeed but, in keeping with the title of this thread, it provides on opportunity for some people to look down on them.

It does, to be fair, show a lack of effort into presenting yourself in public. Which is not dissimilar to not caring that you stink of sweat when you have had an opportunity to wash (note that I'm not talking down to people who can't have done, either those who have just done a sporting activity at somewhere there is no shower facility, or those who are homeless, just those who are too bone-idle or inconsiderate of others that they choose not to).
 
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Bald Rick

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I had no idea that ‘looking down’ on people in first class was a thing. I’ve certainly never experienced it from either side of the equation. Indeed, I rather think one is ‘looked up’ to when in first.
 

DerekC

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I think the problem arises (as far as there is one) when Standard Class is full and there are empty seats in First. It gets worse when the Standard Class aisles and vestibules are full as well and First Class passengers object to people standing in their accommodation. (I appreciate that they are within their rights, but it does seem a bit "dog in the manger").
 

Jonny

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I had no idea that ‘looking down’ on people in first class was a thing. I’ve certainly never experienced it from either side of the equation. Indeed, I rather think one is ‘looked up’ to when in first.

Mostly from people who cannot afford to express their snobbery by travelling first class. You could call it "inverse snobbery".
 

sprunt

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It does, to be fair, show a lack of effort into presenting yourself in public. Which is not dissimilar to not caring that you stink of sweat when you have had an opportunity to wash (note that I'm not talking down to people who can't have done, either those who have just done a sporting activity at somewhere there is no shower facility, or those who are homeless, just those who are too bone-idle or inconsiderate of others that they choose not to).

It is dissimilar - if someone is smelly they make a shared space genuinely and unavoidably unpleasant to be in for all the other people there. What they are wearing is just a matter of aesthetics.
 

Cuboid

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When I've travelled 1st Class (for leisure since work won't authorise 1st for travelling) I've thoroughtly enjoyed my time in there (only TOCs I've been 1st Class with are LNER & TPE).

I prefer the space & the general ambience (plus the additional bonus goodies of food/drink) and the amount of solo seats (since I'm both tall & fat).

However, whether in Standard or 1st Class there are types of people I find irritating:
  • People with laptops/paperwork that use more of the table than they should be using.
  • People having loud conversations on the phone/in person in the carriage. (I shouldn't be able to hear what your doing at work, what's wrong with your dog nor your bank details when you pay by card over the phone). I'm not expecting silence, just normal volume conversations.
  • Those (when sat at a table) people who think your legroom space is theirs.
  • Those (when sat side-by-side) people who think your elbow/shoulder room is theirs. I'm a big bloke so do tend to sit closer to the aisle (when in an aisle seat) to give people a bit more room but some people take the mickey.
  • Luggage/bags on/under the table, or on seats when it should be overhead or in the luggage racks. Small handbag/laptop case fine, but not your full rucksack.
I think the problem arises (as far as there is one) when Standard Class is full and there are empty seats in First. It gets worse when the Standard Class aisles and vestibules are full as well and First Class passengers object to people standing in their accommodation. (I appreciate that they are within their rights, but it does seem a bit "dog in the manger").

The last bit here about 1st Class passengers objecting I can understand. It's with the TOCs to ensure that the right size/capacity train is used on the right routes (coughcough Northern coughcough). However, good luck to TPE trying to enforce penalties on the busy afternoon Manchester > Leeds services when it's so packed on that 1st/Standard carriage that people have to stand in 1st Class for safety/comfort.
 

trainophile

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It is dissimilar - if someone is smelly they make a shared space genuinely and unavoidably unpleasant to be in for all the other people there. What they are wearing is just a matter of aesthetics.

Where do you draw the line? Builders bums? I can’t imagine anyone likes seeing that, especially as the culprit is usually about 20 stone!
 

sprunt

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Where do you draw the line? Builders bums? I can’t imagine anyone likes seeing that, especially as the culprit is usually about 20 stone!

Well, my first post on this made reference to avoiding indecent exposure. I'll leave it to the courts to decide where the line is with that...
 

47360

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I don't get to travel much these days by rail these days, but the other day I needed to get a ticket from Edinburgh to Darlo.
Being a bit skint I went for the cheapest option and as a first class ticket was two quid cheaper than standard I went for that.
When I travel I'll do my best not to lower the tone too much in Coach D but I'm not promising anything.
 

Butts

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I don't get to travel much these days by rail these days, but the other day I needed to get a ticket from Edinburgh to Darlo.
Being a bit skint I went for the cheapest option and as a first class ticket was two quid cheaper than standard I went for that.
When I travel I'll do my best not to lower the tone too much in Coach D but I'm not promising anything.

Coach D ???

Is it an Azuma ? .....if so tough luck !!!
 

ChiefPlanner

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A couple of observations - around 1980 I commuted in from Bromley South on an SED 4 Vep , I was entitled to free 1st class residential travel so I went into the compartment 1st , there was a "builder" in there - and there were some caustic looks from the other passengers. Cue a (rare) ticket check from the conducter guard , who happily checked the builders 1st class season - when the C/R had departed , said builder said out loud "see - I am legal - might be a working man , but I pay my way"

Another one , trains with 1st class in the peaks - never, ever , stopped at Wimbledon (where I lived then) , one morning another VEP did , so I dived into the 1st and took the last center seat - some serious frowns from the gathered Telegraph readers , and noting the guard was only a few feet away in the van - kindly asked him to do a check (I was 25 or so) - and slightly put off by one of them saying to me "you do not belong here) - anyway this excellent guard did a brisk check , said "thank you Guv" to me and promptly excessed a full Guildford to Waterloo single on no less than 4 of the other 5 in the compartment , including "Mr Awkward" - a glorious moment but I did not hang around.

When my no 2 son was a student - travelling from Manchester - and being a bit unkempt - and sitting in the 1st (quite legally as the son of a Senior Officer) - he was often targeted - but generally treated very well.
 

yorksrob

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A couple of observations - around 1980 I commuted in from Bromley South on an SED 4 Vep , I was entitled to free 1st class residential travel so I went into the compartment 1st , there was a "builder" in there - and there were some caustic looks from the other passengers. Cue a (rare) ticket check from the conducter guard , who happily checked the builders 1st class season - when the C/R had departed , said builder said out loud "see - I am legal - might be a working man , but I pay my way"

Another one , trains with 1st class in the peaks - never, ever , stopped at Wimbledon (where I lived then) , one morning another VEP did , so I dived into the 1st and took the last center seat - some serious frowns from the gathered Telegraph readers , and noting the guard was only a few feet away in the van - kindly asked him to do a check (I was 25 or so) - and slightly put off by one of them saying to me "you do not belong here) - anyway this excellent guard did a brisk check , said "thank you Guv" to me and promptly excessed a full Guildford to Waterloo single on no less than 4 of the other 5 in the compartment , including "Mr Awkward" - a glorious moment but I did not hang around.

When my no 2 son was a student - travelling from Manchester - and being a bit unkempt - and sitting in the 1st (quite legally as the son of a Senior Officer) - he was often targeted - but generally treated very well.

The Guildford story gave me a good chuckle :lol:
 

ChiefPlanner

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The Guildford story gave me a good chuckle :lol:

Priceless - the Evening Standard asked for contributions on "commuting life" , so I did a pen portrait of "Guildford via Cobham" commuter man -which they published - (a noteably awkward group of "riders") - my reward was a couple of (free) bottles of decent white wine. Delivered. The sub-editor of the then ES commented to me in writing that I had clearly touched a nerve ,as correspondance indicated that the writer of said piece deserved a period of stone breaking in a custodial environment.

In my experience - Berkhampstead , Harpenden or Cobham commuters aligned nicely as "awkward" ...
 

Bald Rick

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I was waiting for that Wimbledon anecdote to come out again - an all time favourite :)

Not long after I got my first class pass, (aged about 25), I’d had a huge night out in Keighley with not much sleep, but was in a hurry to get back to Wolverhampton for the footy. Got in an XC at Leeds ( a Leeds starter), settled down in first wearing essentially what I had on the previous evening with a Wolves shirt on top. I must have looked a state, and given I was still ‘enjoying’ the prodigious quantity of Taylor’s Landlord from the previous evening, probably smelt it too. The Senior conductor was by my side within a fraction of a second of my bum touching the seat. ‘Thank you sir, have a good trip’. ;)
 

yorksrob

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Priceless - the Evening Standard asked for contributions on "commuting life" , so I did a pen portrait of "Guildford via Cobham" commuter man -which they published - (a noteably awkward group of "riders") - my reward was a couple of (free) bottles of decent white wine. Delivered. The sub-editor of the then ES commented to me in writing that I had clearly touched a nerve ,as correspondance indicated that the writer of said piece deserved a period of stone breaking in a custodial environment.

In my experience - Berkhampstead , Harpenden or Cobham commuters aligned nicely as "awkward" ...

Definitely deserving a couple of decent bottles of plonk !

Fortunately we're all equal on my commute (apart from the fact that too many get on at Barnsley taking all the seats grrrrrr !)
 

ChiefPlanner

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I was waiting for that Wimbledon anecdote to come out again - an all time favourite :)

Not long after I got my first class pass, (aged about 25), I’d had a huge night out in Keighley with not much sleep, but was in a hurry to get back to Wolverhampton for the footy. Got in an XC at Leeds ( a Leeds starter), settled down in first wearing essentially what I had on the previous evening with a Wolves shirt on top. I must have looked a state, and given I was still ‘enjoying’ the prodigious quantity of Taylor’s Landlord from the previous evening, probably smelt it too. The Senior conductor was by my side within a fraction of a second of my bum touching the seat. ‘Thank you sir, have a good trip’. ;)

You did well to get up and make the train......hope it was worth it....:E
 

Hadders

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Another one , trains with 1st class in the peaks - never, ever , stopped at Wimbledon (where I lived then) , one morning another VEP did , so I dived into the 1st and took the last center seat - some serious frowns from the gathered Telegraph readers , and noting the guard was only a few feet away in the van - kindly asked him to do a check (I was 25 or so) - and slightly put off by one of them saying to me "you do not belong here) - anyway this excellent guard did a brisk check , said "thank you Guv" to me and promptly excessed a full Guildford to Waterloo single on no less than 4 of the other 5 in the compartment , including "Mr Awkward" - a glorious moment but I did not hang around.

Not long after I got my first class pass, (aged about 25), I’d had a huge night out in Keighley with not much sleep, but was in a hurry to get back to Wolverhampton for the footy. Got in an XC at Leeds ( a Leeds starter), settled down in first wearing essentially what I had on the previous evening with a Wolves shirt on top. I must have looked a state, and given I was still ‘enjoying’ the prodigious quantity of Taylor’s Landlord from the previous evening, probably smelt it too. The Senior conductor was by my side within a fraction of a second of my bum touching the seat. ‘Thank you sir, have a good trip’. ;)

Gents, I look forward to reading your long awaited memoires. Where can I pre-order copies?
 

ChiefPlanner

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Gents, I look forward to reading your long awaited memoires. Where can I pre-order copies?

Thank you so much - one of us has to retire first. !

(I have yet to recount the winter of 1987 and how I got a C69 LT train out of trouble , which had stalled on the approach to Wimbledon due to severe icing and snow..) - just a bit dodgy but people got home ...
 

Mark62

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I always travel long distance in first class because I don't want to travel in cattle trains.
 

yorksrob

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I was waiting for that Wimbledon anecdote to come out again - an all time favourite :)

Not long after I got my first class pass, (aged about 25), I’d had a huge night out in Keighley with not much sleep, but was in a hurry to get back to Wolverhampton for the footy. Got in an XC at Leeds ( a Leeds starter), settled down in first wearing essentially what I had on the previous evening with a Wolves shirt on top. I must have looked a state, and given I was still ‘enjoying’ the prodigious quantity of Taylor’s Landlord from the previous evening, probably smelt it too. The Senior conductor was by my side within a fraction of a second of my bum touching the seat. ‘Thank you sir, have a good trip’. ;)

Can't blame anyone for getting a bit carried away on the old TT Landlord :lol:
 

matt_world2004

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I had someone give me grief because I was sitting in "first class" with a hivi . It had been permanently declassified
 

dcsprior

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Ultimately if I want to go to the pub, I don’t see why work should pay for it.

Because your work is probably paying you for a nominal 7 or 8 hours per day. By being away on business you're giving up the opportunity to spend the other ~16 hours/day (~8 if you don't count the time you're asleep) doing whatever you want, with whoever you want. So often the most attractive option for evening entertainment is to go out for a pint with your colleagues who're also miles from home unable to spend their evening as they would choose... having your work pay for this does actually seem fair to me.


Similarly I don't mind Premier Inns, Ibises etc (indeed those are my preferred chains if booking for myself - the former in the UK, the latter outside), but if you want me to go away on business a Travelodge is just not acceptable. They are dirty, poorly maintained and uncomfortable. If the accommodation is of a lower standard than an average house, it is unacceptable to require it.

The problem with Travelodges isn't that every one (or perhaps even the average one) is rubbish; it's that they're not of a consistent standard. Premier Inn have far less variance between different ones.

Do any TOCs still offer a reduced First Class service to those travelling on Advance tickets? A long time back (pre-National Express) I was denied access to the First Class lounge at Waverley before a journey to London because I had an Advance ticket.

You don't have to go back that far for this - East Coast (pre-Virgin) had the same rule, though possibly only at Kings Cross 'cos the old lounge lacked capacity. I'm not aware of this anywhere today though.

Anyway, back to the original topic, my feelings on this can be summed up by this post from a few years ago:

Consider the Edinburgh-London journey (one I used to make very frequently by train): having two classes allows rail to compete with both of the main competitors competitors - coaches/std (rail slightly dearer but a lot faster and similar comfort) and air/1st (rail similarly priced and slower, but a lot more comfortable and better freebies).

On commuter routes I'd agree that no-one should pay more for a better service when there are others who don't receive the basics, but the problem is that most 'commuter' services are also providing a longer distance service for some passengers.

P.S. the reason I no longer travel EDB-KGX very frequently by rail is that in the early days of VTEC, they moved away from 1st in the train being prices in line with flying+transfers.
 
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