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Lothian Buses and ECB Discussion

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overthewater

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Wonder how that will do ?

Think 35 going over to 300 and higher fares is silly , is a slow service

Since most passengers are getting return tickets from Glasgow. If you buy a single on this overnight service it will cost: £11.20 while the normal Airlink is £11.60.

It would seem ALL Overnight journeys are charged at the higher rate of £11.20.
 
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NotATrainspott

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The 35 needed a new fleet of buses at the same time as the 200 needed double deckers. I don't think it's unreasonable that the fare will be going up.

Airports are one of the few places a bus company can charge extra for without it being unfair and damaging. Airport buses are used by two types of people: people going to go fly somewhere, and people who work at the airport. It's easy to handle the latter category with season tickets or special fares for airport pass holders. The former are people for whom an extra few pounds on their ticket is irrelevant. If you're going to be flying somewhere to go on holiday, an extra few pounds to get to/from the airport is never going to be problem for you. Compared to the cost of flights and the higher costs of things at the airport and beyond security, the bus fare is irrelevant.

If Lothian weren't allowed to charge more for airport travellers, their costs wouldn't decrease, and they would have to make up the difference by charging more for normal people going about their daily business. Going up to a £1.70 single fare is going to harm a lot more people by a lot more than a £5 airport fare you might pay once or twice a year.
 

takno

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The 35 needed a new fleet of buses at the same time as the 200 needed double deckers. I don't think it's unreasonable that the fare will be going up.

Airports are one of the few places a bus company can charge extra for without it being unfair and damaging. Airport buses are used by two types of people: people going to go fly somewhere, and people who work at the airport. It's easy to handle the latter category with season tickets or special fares for airport pass holders. The former are people for whom an extra few pounds on their ticket is irrelevant. If you're going to be flying somewhere to go on holiday, an extra few pounds to get to/from the airport is never going to be problem for you. Compared to the cost of flights and the higher costs of things at the airport and beyond security, the bus fare is irrelevant.

If Lothian weren't allowed to charge more for airport travellers, their costs wouldn't decrease, and they would have to make up the difference by charging more for normal people going about their daily business. Going up to a £1.70 single fare is going to harm a lot more people by a lot more than a £5 airport fare you might pay once or twice a year.

Given that I use the plane to get around the UK I think I paid the extra around 12 times last year, which will have added at least 5% to the cost of the flights, so it is a significant cost. In the end though it just means the airlines cut their fares by paying lower airport fees, and the airport made their money from the bus company instead. I'd rather that wasn't allowed to happen, but since it is, I'd rather the bus company didn't make everyone else subsidize air travel by swallowing the cost.

As to the 35, I've only used once or twice it because it's so painfully slow. If I was that intent on saving a couple of quid I'd just get the tram to the park and ride and walk less than a mile from there. Obviously that isn't very practical with luggage, but a faintly threatening sign telling you there isn't a pavement is literally the only thing blocking the pavement all the way.
 

berneyarms

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The 35 needed a new fleet of buses at the same time as the 200 needed double deckers. I don't think it's unreasonable that the fare will be going up.

Airports are one of the few places a bus company can charge extra for without it being unfair and damaging. Airport buses are used by two types of people: people going to go fly somewhere, and people who work at the airport. It's easy to handle the latter category with season tickets or special fares for airport pass holders. The former are people for whom an extra few pounds on their ticket is irrelevant. If you're going to be flying somewhere to go on holiday, an extra few pounds to get to/from the airport is never going to be problem for you. Compared to the cost of flights and the higher costs of things at the airport and beyond security, the bus fare is irrelevant.

If Lothian weren't allowed to charge more for airport travellers, their costs wouldn't decrease, and they would have to make up the difference by charging more for normal people going about their daily business. Going up to a £1.70 single fare is going to harm a lot more people by a lot more than a £5 airport fare you might pay once or twice a year.

You could make the opening paragraph argument about any route that a bus company has.

They've rolled out new buses across all of their operations and those fares haven't jumped up by this scale.

The 35/300 is a normal bus route - nothing special about it.

I've no issue with charging a higher fare on limited stop routes, but charging extra to go to the airport on a normal stopping bus route and to prove it the same as on an express is taking the proverbial.
 

NotATrainspott

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Given that I use the plane to get around the UK I think I paid the extra around 12 times last year, which will have added at least 5% to the cost of the flights, so it is a significant cost. In the end though it just means the airlines cut their fares by paying lower airport fees, and the airport made their money from the bus company instead. I'd rather that wasn't allowed to happen, but since it is, I'd rather the bus company didn't make everyone else subsidize air travel by swallowing the cost.

As to the 35, I've only used once or twice it because it's so painfully slow. If I was that intent on saving a couple of quid I'd just get the tram to the park and ride and walk less than a mile from there. Obviously that isn't very practical with luggage, but a faintly threatening sign telling you there isn't a pavement is literally the only thing blocking the pavement all the way.

Flying is an activity done by people who have money to spare. It's not a life-essential thing, while normal everyday bus travel is for a lot of people. As various governments have found out, the airport has an electorate of zero, so it's politically entirely viable to treat it unlike any other area of the country. Adding 5% to the cost of a flight is pretty much irrelevant anyway.

You could make the opening paragraph argument about any route that a bus company has.

They've rolled out new buses across all of their operations and those fares haven't jumped up by this scale.

The 35/300 is a normal bus route - nothing special about it.

I've no issue with charging a higher fare on limited stop routes, but charging extra to go to the airport on a normal stopping bus route and to prove it the same as on an express is taking the proverbial.


They needed to buy new double deckers for the 35 at the same time as they were going to double deckers on the 200. It seems like an opportune moment to make the two share the same fleet. But, that means you need to have a consistent fare policy across the two. Alternatively, if you start with the need to increase the airport fare, it seems quite reasonable to brand the 35 as a Skylink service and have it be somewhat equivalent to the 200.
 

takno

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They needed to buy new double deckers for the 35 at the same time as they were going to double deckers on the 200. It seems like an opportune moment to make the two share the same fleet. But, that means you need to have a consistent fare policy across the two. Alternatively, if you start with the need to increase the airport fare, it seems quite reasonable to brand the 35 as a Skylink service and have it be somewhat equivalent to the 200.

That doesn't mean that they're going to run a fleet with large luggage racks on the 35 does it? The proportion of traffic on that bus that is going anywhere near the airport is tiny, and it can be absolutely rammed at other points - filling it with pointless racks isn't going to go down well.
 

Blindtraveler

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Nowhere near enough to a Pacer :(
Not yet - I'm not driving the single decks anymore.

I'm going to try and get type trained on them in the next few weeks and see about getting a shift or two at some point.
I did wonder as hadnt caught up with you in a while despite several journeys on the 24, previously a good place to find you. Double's at Central now I assume?
 

route101

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Not yet - I'm not driving the single decks anymore.

I'm going to try and get type trained on them in the next few weeks and see about getting a shift or two at some point.

A few questions for you , if you dont mind .
Do you know other depots routes ?
Do you cover at other depots?
 

90019

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I did wonder as hadnt caught up with you in a while despite several journeys on the 24, previously a good place to find you. Double's at Central now I assume?
Yeah, driving double decks instead, mostly to get away from the 1, but the shorter days are nice.

A few questions for you , if you dont mind .
Do you know other depots routes ?
I know a few of them, mostly ones that used to be at my depot with a few I've either travelled on enough times or figured out the route myself.
I've not been trained on any other depots routes.

Do you cover at other depots?
I don't, no.
Some drivers do, but it's generally voluntary as overtime shifts.

Occasionally a driver on standby can be sent with a bus to cover part of another depot's route, but it seems to be a fairly rare occurrence in my experience.
 

route101

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Yeah, driving double decks instead, mostly to get away from the 1, but the shorter days are nice.


I know a few of them, mostly ones that used to be at my depot with a few I've either travelled on enough times or figured out the route myself.
I've not been trained on any other depots routes.


I don't, no.
Some drivers do, but it's generally voluntary as overtime shifts.

Occasionally a driver on standby can be sent with a bus to cover part of another depot's route, but it seems to be a fairly rare occurrence in my experience.

Thanks for answering . In Glasgow the biggest depot has 3 sets of drivers that do separate routes !
 

ejstubbs

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I had another boneshaking ride down Lothian Road on the number 11 this morning. I know the road surface there isn't great but one model of bus that they use on that service seems to be the absolute worst for ride comfort in the whole fleet. They're the ones with what looks like formica interior panelling - which adds the the fun on rough surfaces because it creaks and clatters like billy-o.

The model of bus concerned has a squarer roof profile from the front than the other double deckers they use on that route (the ones with the blue interior panelling). They also seem to have a bigger glass area in front of the driver. I think they are used on the 25 as well. Anyone know what make/model they are? And are they due to be replaced any time soon? (The risk of LB being sued to cover passengers' chiropractic bills might be an inducement to change!)
 

ejstubbs

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-40866842
A Copy of this is in the Edinburgh Tram thread, the link is here for ref:

If I was Lothian buses, I would start looking at new bus routes if this get the go ahead, Since it would affect the 22 and 25, plus the 10 and 16.

Personnel I would start looking for other ideas and route to complement the trams were trying to get new customers, with the amount of traffic that wouldnt be to hard.

IIRC, it was always the intention way back in the early noughties that the tram would take passengers from the 22, and other routes serving Leith/Newhaven/Granton. I remember arguments along the lines of: residential developments at the waterfront -> population the size of Dundee but everyone will want to work in the city centre or the Gyle and the buses can't cope. (Remember when the 22 was a single decker running ~every two minutes?) That need seemed to become less pressing when a lot of development plans were put on hold as a result of financial crisis (which also put paid to Caltongate Mk 1).

If they were looking for another route to put a tram along I'd nominate the 44: that is phenomenally busy at peak times, there is more and more new residential development going up around Currie/Balerno, and dwell times on Princes Street are getting longer and longer (I speak as someone who frequently has to wait for a 44/X44 to clear the stop before I can board a 4 in the evening).

I bet that running trams along the Water of Leith Walkway (ex Caledonian Railway Balerno Branch) would not be at all popular, though - just look at the row that blew up around Line 1b of the original proposal, that was going to run along the old Caley line to Leith, now the NEPN.
 

ejstubbs

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I grew up near Stirling. There, if a bus arrived at a stop that already had a bus at it, people would be able to board both buses at once. In Edinburgh, buses wait until they're first in the queue before they lot people board. I think this is a significant factor in the slowness, to an extent that I'd say it outweighs the time saved by the exact fare system.

It can also negatively impact other traffic. Today I was driving into Edinburgh and was held up for almost 5 minutes behind buses at just one bus stop (a traffic island and some other road features meant a safe overtake wasn't possible). If the buses had boarded 2 or 3 at a time, there would've been a lot less time queuing.

Given that changing this would seem to be a win-win, I presume there's a strong reason for not doing it.

I think one good reason is a combination of busy bus stops and inconsistent/unpredictable dwell times. If you have three or four buses waiting to pull up to a stop (as frequently happens on Princes Street of an evening) and the buses behind start loading, once the first bus has gone it's difficult and potentially dangerous for them all to shuffle up part-way through the loading procedure. Then more buses come along and have to tag on to the end of the queue (which is further back than it would actually need to be if the buses could all pull forward) which could in turn cause the inside lane to be occupied far further back than would be the case if the buses took it in turn to load - thus potentially blocking other bus stops, and/or junctions.

Also, on Princes Street at least, there is the tram line down the outside lane which reduces the opportunities for/advisability of buses ducking in and out of fragmented queues (it does happen, but not nearly as much as if the queues of buses weren't as orderly as they are now).

Blindtraveler's point about partially sighted users not having to wonder where the bus is actually going to stop to let them on is also a good one. Similarly, it means that people of limited mobility don't need to struggle up and down a line of buses to get on the one they want - it will eventually come to them.

Something else that could be done during the festival and other times that see a lot of tourists or infrequent bus users on the bus is having people at bus stops to guide passengers to actually get the correct bus and understand how payment works, rather than have them get on a bus and only then find out what they need to do, at the cost of the driver spending valuable time explaining this to them, or get the correct bus but attempt to get change of £10. This could be temporary staff or people who for the rest of year carry out other roles within Lothian Buses/TfE or the council.

That would certainly be helpful. They could also encourage the tourists to wait in an orderly fashion, in a way that doesn't block the pavement for other people - rather than hanging around in confused-looking clumps getting in everyone's way, as seems to be the usual practice! (I do wonder at people who fiddle around with Facebook and Twitter on the latest shiny smartphone while waiting at a stop, then when a bus arrives they have to engage the driver in a protracted conversation to find out something that Google or the LB app could have told them while they were waiting. Sigh...)
 

takno

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(I do wonder at people who fiddle around with Facebook and Twitter on the latest shiny smartphone while waiting at a stop, then when a bus arrives they have to engage the driver in a protracted conversation to find out something that Google or the LB app could have told them while they were waiting. Sigh...)
Half the time the information is written right there on the stop. People used to read it from sheer boredom. Too many distractions these days ;)
 

alexf380

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I had another boneshaking ride down Lothian Road on the number 11 this morning. I know the road surface there isn't great but one model of bus that they use on that service seems to be the absolute worst for ride comfort in the whole fleet. They're the ones with what looks like formica interior panelling - which adds the the fun on rough surfaces because it creaks and clatters like billy-o.

The model of bus concerned has a squarer roof profile from the front than the other double deckers they use on that route (the ones with the blue interior panelling). They also seem to have a bigger glass area in front of the driver. I think they are used on the 25 as well. Anyone know what make/model they are? And are they due to be replaced any time soon? (The risk of LB being sued to cover passengers' chiropractic bills might be an inducement to change!)
Believe it or not, these could well be the newest buses in the fleet. Some route 11 journeys are worked by Marine garage so a few of the 17 plate dealers can escape onto that route from time to time. They aren't the best at all.
 

ejstubbs

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The bus this morning had an 04 plate. Here's a photo of it after I'd alighted:

37139541533_a319ef5381_o.jpg


I'll keep a wary eye out for any 17 plate buses!

(The single deckers that sometimes run on that route aren't too bad IMO.)
 

oldman

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It is, apparently, a Dennis Trident/Plaxton President. Their demise cannot be far away. The good thing about them is the generous seat spacing upstairs, unlike the newest buses which are designed for midgets. The same is true for the latest Airlink coaches, oblivious to the fact that people going to airports often have cabin bags and would like somewhere to put them apart from the racks which are full of suitcases. Unfortunately, they are more interested in liveries than passenger comfort. Their efforts at bus-stop information are another example of their loss of focus.

Incidentally the people standing around in random clumps are just as likely to be locals; we like to indulge in after-you-no-after-you rituals to delay boarding further.
 

takno

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Incidentally the people standing around in random clumps are just as likely to be locals; we like to indulge in after-you-no-after-you rituals to delay boarding further.
In 15 years I still haven't got the hang of those. Somebody says "after you" to me I say thank you and get on. Invariably seems to be followed by dagger stares...
 

alexf380

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Yes that is indeed a Dennis Trident, very close to being withdrawn completely in Edinburgh so you shan't have to suffer them much longer. Theyve been worked hard and not looked after.
 

route101

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Yes that is indeed a Dennis Trident, very close to being withdrawn completely in Edinburgh so you shan't have to suffer them much longer. Theyve been worked hard and not looked after.

The Lothian ones are spartan compared to first ones , in Glasgow most are short wheelbase with hard seats and manky .
 

route101

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I had another boneshaking ride down Lothian Road on the number 11 this morning. I know the road surface there isn't great but one model of bus that they use on that service seems to be the absolute worst for ride comfort in the whole fleet. They're the ones with what looks like formica interior panelling - which adds the the fun on rough surfaces because it creaks and clatters like billy-o.

The model of bus concerned has a squarer roof profile from the front than the other double deckers they use on that route (the ones with the blue interior panelling). They also seem to have a bigger glass area in front of the driver. I think they are used on the 25 as well. Anyone know what make/model they are? And are they due to be replaced any time soon? (The risk of LB being sued to cover passengers' chiropractic bills might be an inducement to change!)

Coming from Glasgow the Lothian ones are in immaculate condition , just wait to you try a First Glasgow TRIDENT ...
 

overthewater

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If they were looking for another route to put a tram along I'd nominate the 44: that is phenomenally busy at peak times, there is more and more new residential development going up around Currie/Balerno, and dwell times on Princes Street are getting longer and longer (I speak as someone who frequently has to wait for a 44/X44 to clear the stop before I can board a 4 in the evening).

I bet that running trams along the Water of Leith Walkway (ex Caledonian Railway Balerno Branch) would not be at all popular, though - just look at the row that blew up around Line 1b of the original proposal, that was going to run along the old Caley line to Leith, now the NEPN.

The only two routes that are planned for the next 50 years is to complete the cirular from Leith - Granton - Craigleith - haymarket, or to the Royal hospital. the 44 route will never give it.
 
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