Lothian Group discussion (Lothian City, Lothian Country Bus and East Coast Buses)

[Graham Alexand]

This is on topic but it isn't got anything to do with the current discussion.

For those of you that dont know, you can access both the old Lothian Country and East Coast Buses websites.

These are links to the most up-to-date versions of them before they were redirected to Lothian Buses main website.

Lothian Country.

Lothian Country – Lothian Country

East Coast Buses.

East Coast Buses – Connecting communities throughout East Lothian

To get other versions of these go to web.archive.org and type in "www.lothiancountry.co.uk" or "www.eastcoastbuses.co.uk".

It is the same for the Lothian Buses website type in "www.lothianbuses.com" to view most versions of it .

 

[TheEastCoaster]

This is on topic but it isn't got anything to do with the current discussion.

For those of you that dont know, you can access both the old Lothian Country and East Coast Buses websites.

These are links to the most up-to-date versions of them before they were redirected to Lothian Buses main website.

Lothian Country.

Lothian Country – Lothian Country

East Coast Buses.

East Coast Buses – Connecting communities throughout East Lothian

To get other versions of these go to web.archive.org and type in "www.lothiancountry.co.uk" or "www.eastcoastbuses.co.uk".

It is the same for the Lothian Buses website type in "www.lothianbuses.com" to view most versions of it .

Wonder if in longterm after this pandemic is over they will use the separate websites again? Because tbh having it all under Lothians website makes it easier and less confusing, especially if they are trying to market they are all one big Lothian family

 

[Graham Alexand]

Wonder if in longterm after this pandemic is over they will use the separate websites again? Because tbh having it all under Lothians website makes it easier and less confusing, especially if they are trying to market they are all one big Lothian family

Yea, I think it will probably stay as is, separate sites would be great for local areas such as West Lothian and East Lothian but apart from that the main website is more convenient overall.

 

[takno]

Yea, I think it will probably stay as is, separate sites would be great for local areas such as West Lothian and East Lothian but apart from that the main website is more convenient overall.

I find the combined Stagecoach and Firstbus sites confusing because they're trying to impose the same structure on half the country, and it's difficult to understand local fare structures etc. With the Lothian Group Companies the fare structure is more consistent across the group, and it's still small enough to find what you need.

 

[Siemens Trains]

I find the combined Stagecoach and Firstbus sites confusing because they're trying to impose the same structure on half the country, and it's difficult to understand local fare structures etc. With the Lothian Group Companies the fare structure is more consistent across the group, and it's still small enough to find what you need.

I tend to agree. There's quite a strong case to put all the Lothian websites together as they run across a common area and it helps with integration. Nearly all their routes go into the main Lothian city area, so it seems to make sense.

Like you I also find First and Stagecoach pages rather challenging. There's a limit to how general you should make these things and they've probably tried to go too far.

 

[cnjb8]

I find the combined Stagecoach and Firstbus sites confusing because they're trying to impose the same structure on half the country, and it's difficult to understand local fare structures etc. With the Lothian Group Companies the fare structure is more consistent across the group, and it's still small enough to find what you need.

Exactly, if they want a unified website then there will need to be better advertisement for it. Will an East Coast passenger know to visit the Lothian site for info

 

[OmniCity999]

Exactly, if they want a unified website then there will need to be better advertisement for it. Will an East Coast passenger know to visit the Lothian site for info

An East Coast passenger can visit EastCoastbuses.co.uk which redirects to the Lothian site. Likewise, if said passenger were to use a search engine to find info on an EastCoastbuses service, it will redirect them to the Lothian site. Likewise for Lothiancountry.

There would be little confusion in either instance as the landing page holds all relevant information about every East Coast service, including route maps, ticketing and journey planner - available through the wider website. Exactly the same for Lothiancountry. Said journey planner works across Lothian, EastCoastbuses and Lothiancountry - including connections between brands

The roadworks and planned diversions page also includes detailed information for EastCoastbuses, Lothiancountry, Lothian and Edinburgh Bus Tours. As does the News pages.

Each brands social media accounts are still regularly active and are advertised on the sub-web pages on the Lothian website or were so until recently.

at the bottom of each sub page on Lothians site the following is shown:

Lothiancity, Airlink, Skylink, EastCoastbuses, Lothiancountry, Edinburgh Bus Tours and Lothian Motorcoaches - All part of the Lothian Group.

All above board, all clear and concise - strictly speaking, an EastCoast or Lothiancountry passenger wouldnt need to know to goto the Lothian Buses website, their just redirected there. Regardless of visiting Lothiancountry.co.uk, EastCoastbuses.co.uk or using a search engine.

 

[cnjb8]

An East Coast passenger can visit EastCoastbuses.co.uk which redirects to the Lothian site. Likewise, if said passenger were to use a search engine to find info on an EastCoastbuses service, it will redirect them to the Lothian site. Likewise for Lothiancountry.

There would be little confusion in either instance as the landing page holds all relevant information about every East Coast service, including route maps, ticketing and journey planner - available through the wider website. Exactly the same for Lothiancountry. Said journey planner works across Lothian, EastCoastbuses and Lothiancountry - including connections between brands

The roadworks and planned diversions page also includes detailed information for EastCoastbuses, Lothiancountry, Lothian and Edinburgh Bus Tours. As does the News pages.

Each brands social media accounts are still regularly active and are advertised on the sub-web pages on the Lothian website or were so until recently.

at the bottom of each sub page on Lothians site the following is shown:

Lothiancity, Airlink, Skylink, EastCoastbuses, Lothiancountry, Edinburgh Bus Tours and Lothian Motorcoaches - All part of the Lothian Group.

All above board, all clear and concise - strictly speaking, an EastCoast or Lothiancountry passenger wouldnt need to know to goto the Lothian Buses website, their just redirected there. Regardless of visiting Lothiancountry.co.uk, EastCoastbuses.co.uk or using a search engine.

Fair enough then

 

[route101]

Why is East Coast buses not Lothian Country?

 

[OmniCity999]

Why is East Coast buses not Lothian Country?

This has been covered before.

First we need to distinguish between Lothian Country Buses and Lothiancountry, then we can discuss why EastCoastbuses isn't Lothian Country Buses or Lothiancountry.

East Coast buses was set up to take over First East Lothian routes and the previous Lothian Country Buses routes. Now, previous Lothian Country Buses was just a small (2 routes, no depots of their own) brand operated on its own license, which for sometime hadn't operated on its own license. There's a bit of a grey area there I don't know the full ins and outs.

East Coast buses was set up as a new company and was given a dormant operators license, which Lothian used to use for another brand, maybe the Airport shuttle transits, I can't remember.

To appear above board etc, East Coast buses had to be somewhat distant from Lothian buses. Hence it being a new company on a dormant license. At first East Coast only ran routes like the X7, 124 and schools. It very quickly gained the 104 and 113 after an investigation. Other routes were added and taken away through the companies growth. Merger and takeover complete.

Once the 104 and 113 transferred from Lothian Country Buses, the brand was dead.

When the 43 started, it ran on the Lothian buses license. This allowed management to keep a close eye on the service, from Central and give it a distinct brand - it would also mean if any Lothian buses vehicles had to cover any services, they wouldn't necessarily need to display "on hire" notices. It also cut down on dead running.

Whilst this was going on, a new company was set up called Lothiancountry, serving West Lothian, sharing the same livery as used on the 43. The 43 remained on the Lothian Buses license for some time, remained at Central and utilised Lothian Buses drivers.

Once Lothiancountry got its own depot, all their services moved from Longstone to Livingston, as did the 43 from Central, which at this point transferred license.

Long story short. Lothiancountry as is, could still hang in the balance, there are after all two larger operators in West Lothian now.

Pre covid, East Coast buses made good profit. Why taint an operator thats making good profit with potentially services that could plumit? If Lothiancountry services go down, they could have taken East Coast services with them. Services that provide vital connections for people in distant areas.

Besides, East Coast buses regularly visit the coast, hence the name East Coast. None of the Lothiancountry services go near the coast.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

This has been covered before.

First we need to distinguish between Lothian Country Buses and Lothiancountry, then we can discuss why EastCoastbuses isn't Lothian Country Buses or Lothiancountry.

East Coast buses was set up to take over First East Lothian routes and the previous Lothian Country Buses routes. Now, previous Lothian Country Buses was just a small (2 routes, no depots of their own) brand operated on its own license, which for sometime hadn't operated on its own license. There's a bit of a grey area there I don't know the full ins and outs.

East Coast buses was set up as a new company and was given a dormant operators license, which Lothian used to use for another brand, maybe the Airport shuttle transits, I can't remember.

To appear above board etc, East Coast buses had to be somewhat distant from Lothian buses. Hence it being a new company on a dormant license. At first East Coast only ran routes like the X7, 124 and schools. It very quickly gained the 104 and 113 after an investigation. Other routes were added and taken away through the companies growth. Merger and takeover complete.

Once the 104 and 113 transferred from Lothian Country Buses, the brand was dead.

When the 43 started, it ran on the Lothian buses license. This allowed management to keep a close eye on the service, from Central and give it a distinct brand - it would also mean if any Lothian buses vehicles had to cover any services, they wouldn't necessarily need to display "on hire" notices. It also cut down on dead running.

Whilst this was going on, a new company was set up called Lothiancountry, serving West Lothian, sharing the same livery as used on the 43. The 43 remained on the Lothian Buses license for some time, remained at Central and utilised Lothian Buses drivers.

Once Lothiancountry got its own depot, all their services moved from Longstone to Livingston, as did the 43 from Central, which at this point transferred license.

Long story short. Lothiancountry as is, could still hang in the balance, there are after all two larger operators in West Lothian now.

Pre covid, East Coast buses made good profit. Why taint an operator thats making good profit with potentially services that could plumit? If Lothiancountry services go down, they could have taken East Coast services with them. Services that provide vital connections for people in distant areas.

Besides, East Coast buses regularly visit the coast, hence the name East Coast. None of the Lothiancountry services go near the coast.

IIRC East Lothian Buses when it started back in 2012 with the white tridents registered as Edinburgh Shuttle Limited, which I think was the reused Ford transit brand. It later became Lothian Country Buses - sometime in early 2014 I believe and then as you say was merged into East Coast not too long after that operation started.


For those wondering East Lothian Buses started as an hourly service 113 between the Western General and Pencaitland using tridents 635-639 to replace the Lothian 44 (which had been scaled back to Tranent to allow this to start) and the First 44B I believe after First closed Dalkeith and scaled back Musselburgh, a few W reg tridents were later added when it went up to I think every 40 minutes? 552 I’m sure was one of them. 104 came in September 2014 and then the brand was integrated after that.

 

[Avenger20]

Besides, East Coast buses regularly visit the coast, hence the name East Coast. None of the Lothiancountry services go near the coast.

Being pedantic, you could argue that the 43 goes to a coast!

 

[OmniCity999]

Being pedantic, you could argue that the 43 goes to a coast!

touché!

Point i was making was coastal services are the core operation of East Coast, 9 services out of 13 serve the coastal towns of East Lothian: X5, X7, X24, 106, 124, 125, 126, 127, 128 All of which are high passenger turnover routes (most are also financially aided by the council too), in terms of East Coast services. Not saying the Haddington, Ormiston or Midlothian services arent as important, but the company is more focussed on coastal services

Lothiancountry's costal services are the 43, X43 and N43

Both companies have different goals is the point im getting at, one was set up to save services, the other to ruffle feathers

 

[TheEastCoaster]

touché!

Point i was making was coastal services are the core operation of East Coast, 9 services out of 13 serve the coastal towns of East Lothian: X5, X7, X24, 106, 124, 125, 126, 127, 128 All of which are high passenger turnover routes (most are also financially aided by the council too), in terms of East Coast services. Not saying the Haddington, Ormiston or Midlothian services arent as important, but the company is more focussed on coastal services

Lothiancountry's costal services are the 43, X43 and N43

Both companies have different goals is the point im getting at, one was set up to save services, the other to ruffle feathers

Not to be pedantic but ECB dont run a 128 I think that was the Haddington - RIE service Eve used to run which the 118 now currently covers partially

i think East Coast Buses have made an impact in the past almost 5 years since its inception, the 124 linking Portobello to North Berwick, 106 running Dunbar to Fort Kinnaird with the X7, I can only wonder what else ECB can do in the future!

another route? expand into areas not covered like East Saulton or Gifford? The part of Wallyford that has no bus yet! Who knows.

 

[OmniCity999]

Not to be pedantic but ECB dont run a 128 I think that was the Haddington - RIE service Eve used to run which the 118 now currently covers partially

i think East Coast Buses have made an impact in the past almost 5 years since its inception, the 124 linking Portobello to North Berwick, 106 running Dunbar to Fort Kinnaird with the X7, I can only wonder what else ECB can do in the future!

another route? expand into areas not covered like East Saulton or Gifford? The part of Wallyford that has no bus yet! Who knows.

Yes they do! Longniddry to Preston Lodge. A short service, but a service nonetheless.

Any new route alterations are likely to be into the bit of Wallyford. i dont think the company would go any more rural than they currently do, unfortunately. The market is small and the smaller towns/villages do have a service from other operators. If Eve or Prentice go bust, i cant imagine East Coast will take over service, its most likely to be the other party. i.e. if Eve go bust, Prentice would likely take the work load. the type of work these companies do is very small vehicles on very rural services. None of the Lothian subsidiaries have vehicles considered small enough.

Never say never though. Short Enviro 200's would be great.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Not to be pedantic but ECB dont run a 128 I think that was the Haddington - RIE service Eve used to run which the 118 now currently covers partially

i think East Coast Buses have made an impact in the past almost 5 years since its inception, the 124 linking Portobello to North Berwick, 106 running Dunbar to Fort Kinnaird with the X7, I can only wonder what else ECB can do in the future!

another route? expand into areas not covered like East Saulton or Gifford? The part of Wallyford that has no bus yet! Who knows.

I’m afraid that’s not correct, ECB do run a 128. It is the old Preston Lodge to Longniddry 124 school run that was renumbered into its own sometime last year.

As for any further expansions it would be nice, can’t help but think something will change when East Linton railway station opens in the future, possibly a case of the 106 running to Dunbar all the time with only every second X7 going to Dunbar, the Borders Buses 253 seems more likely to change, possibly reduce back down to a 2 hourly or a few times a day service but that’s off topic.

Best chance of expansion are through contracts, and I’m not sure ECB have the right sort of vehicles for them, Eclipses just seem to large for something like the 111, for capacity and also fitting up smaller streets. The 111 is in my view the best of the contracts to go for but Prentice and Eve do a great job with the ones they run and so it’d be sad to see routes taken away from the independents. I’m not saying ECB would do a bad job it’s just good for the smaller companies to have a share of the market. The majority of the contracts focus on Haddington/Dunbar so North Berwick would need to take things on, again that probably logistically wouldn’t work and a new depot for new contracts and the 104, 106 and X7 probably isn’t viable.

 

[OmniCity999]

I’m afraid that’s not correct, ECB do run a 128. It is the old Preston Lodge to Longniddry 124 school run that was renumbered into its own sometime last year.

As for any further expansions it would be nice, can’t help but think something will change when East Linton railway station opens in the future, possibly a case of the 106 running to Dunbar all the time with only every second X7 going to Dunbar, the Borders Buses 253 seems more likely to change, possibly reduce back down to a 2 hourly or a few times a day service but that’s off topic.

Best chance of expansion are through contracts, and I’m not sure ECB have the right sort of vehicles for them, Eclipses just seem to large for something like the 111, for capacity and also fitting up smaller streets. That’s the best of the contracts to go for but Prentice and Eve do a great job with the ones they run and so it’d be sad to see routes taken away from the independents. I’m not saying ECB would do a bad job it’s just good for the smaller companies to have a share of the market. The majority of the contracts focus on Haddington/Dunbar so North Berwick would need to take things on, again that probably logistically wouldn’t work and a new depot for new contracts and the 104, 106 and X7 proannlh isn’t viable.

Smaller vehicles would need to be sourced, Lothian would need to shake their obsession with Volvo Engine/Chassis as the smallest service vehicle that can be bodied onto a Volvo is an eVoRa.

a load of battery Enviro200's or battery Mellors would be interesting and would look good for the company in terms of going electric etc.

Sure the 104 is entirely commercial? the 106 Haddington to Fort Kinnaird section is commercial i believe too. not 100% sure.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Smaller vehicles would need to be sourced, Lothian would need to shake their obsession with Volvo Engine/Chassis as the smallest thing that can be bodied onto a Volvo is an eVoRa.

a load of battery Enviro200's or battery Mellors would be interesting and would look good for the company in terms of going electric etc.

Certainly would be, I’ve always been a fan of the Enviro200’s that Prentice have and while they’re of a dealer spec internally do look tidy so ECB would in my view need something like that. I wonder what the shortest length of Volvo chassis that could be used is though? Probably at least 11m which is still too long.

BYD Enviro200mmc’s if the planned E400City versions do arrive are probably something I’d say could work, but are they too long? Probably for what they’d be used on. Had things like the 6 and 61 still existed you could argue there’s probably a market for getting them but now that they’re well gone I can’t see it ever happening now. And the StreetAir’s aren’t exactly the most reliable of buses, maybe even possibly a candidate for the most unreliable we’ve ever had in the city?

 

[OmniCity999]

Certainly would be, I’ve always been a fan of the Enviro200’s that Prentice have and while they’re of a dealer spec internally do look tidy so ECB would in my view need something like that. I wonder what the shortest length of Volvo chassis that could be used is though? Probably at least 11m which is still too long.

BYD Enviro200mmc’s if the planned E400City versions do arrive are probably something I’d say could work, but are they too long? Probably for what they’d be used on. Had things like the 6 and 61 still existed you could argue there’s probably a market for getting them but now that they’re well gone I can’t see it ever happening now. And the StreetAir’s aren’t exactly the most reliable of buses, maybe even possibly a candidate for the most unreliable we’ve ever had in the city?

Volvo could make a shorter chassis, they just chose not to. Its out of market trend to do so.

A "heavyweight" short wheelbase chassis doesnt make sense, thats exactly why the short Enviro200's, Solo's and Mellors do make sense.

The idea of a body-over-chassis design is fleet uniformity (specifically for fleets with lots of Volvos), strength and longevity - hence why Lothian buy bodied Volvo's, they know they can get up to 20 years out of them, not that we still do... (its often more cost effective to sell when they are younger). The idea of an integral chassis/body is that its generally lightweight and low cost.

The Mercedes Sprinter City's that have 15 or so seats are just under 8m, Eve recently bought one of these second hand. The average length for a service vehicle for an East Lothian independent operator is 7.5m-11m.

The shortest BYD Enviro200 is 9.6m, i'd say this is a good size for the majority of the rural East Lothian bus routes. There arent many where this is too long, width may be an issue - but a little bit of foliage management will sort that. Height on the other hand...

 

[TheEastCoaster]

Yes they do! Longniddry to Preston Lodge. A short service, but a service nonetheless.

Any new route alterations are likely to be into the bit of Wallyford. i dont think the company would go any more rural than they currently do, unfortunately. The market is small and the smaller towns/villages do have a service from other operators. If Eve or Prentice go bust, i cant imagine East Coast will take over service, its most likely to be the other party. i.e. if Eve go bust, Prentice would likely take the work load. the type of work these companies do is very small vehicles on very rural services. None of the Lothian subsidiaries have vehicles considered small enough.

Never say never though. Short Enviro 200's would be great.

Oh my bad I must of completely forgot about that, I thought it was a short running 124 that used to do that run!

All things considered if the 44 doesn’t extend into that bit maybe the X44/104 will!

I mean that’ll make sense, Prentice and eve do operate some good services, the 111 and 123 are great to run on.

I brought this up ages and ages ago but for the sake of on topic conversation, I think ECB should personally modify the 139/140 fare structure and bring all of Midlothian (outside edinburgh) into Zone B, if they marketed it where if you spend £5 on the 140 from Penicuik or Dalkeith and switch in Musselburgh to Haddington or North Berwick it would be a bargain.

or extend the 140 to ocean terminal

 

[Siemens Trains]

I brought this up ages and ages ago but for the sake of on topic conversation, I think ECB should personally modify the 139/140 fare structure and bring all of Midlothian (outside edinburgh) into Zone B, if they marketed it where if you spend £5 on the 140 from Penicuik or Dalkeith and switch in Musselburgh to Haddington or North Berwick it would be a bargain.

Would the 139 and 140 be viable services in normal times?

 

[TheEastCoaster]

Would the 139 and 140 be viable services in normal times?

I can’t speak for the 139 but I imagine it’s viable for the community hospital, and the 140 is the only bus that links Penicuik-Dalkeith and Musselburgh together so I would think they would be well used services!

 

[ScotRail158725]

Noticed both 446 and 452 with new offside radiator grills, any idea as to why? (damage replacement panels can be ruled out

 

[route101]

Not to be pedantic but ECB dont run a 128 I think that was the Haddington - RIE service Eve used to run which the 118 now currently covers partially

i think East Coast Buses have made an impact in the past almost 5 years since its inception, the 124 linking Portobello to North Berwick, 106 running Dunbar to Fort Kinnaird with the X7, I can only wonder what else ECB can do in the future!

another route? expand into areas not covered like East Saulton or Gifford? The part of Wallyford that has no bus yet! Who knows.

I know Eve operates Dunbar to North Berwick, wonder if ECB will consider that route?

 

[TheEastCoaster]

I know Eve operates Dunbar to North Berwick, wonder if ECB will consider that route?

I remember saying that also if Eve decide to drop the route, especially since in terms of ECB, travel between those two places is time consuming with the 124-104/106 and then X7.

Who knows but I wish Eve all the best with the route

 

[CN04NRJ]

Noticed both 446 and 452 with new offside radiator grills, any idea as to why? (damage replacement panels can be ruled out

What was different about them? Just replacements or different design?

 

[Edirim]

120 / 121 / 123 are all East Lothian Council tenders I'm pretty sure?
Plus Eve's only just bought new buses for them so can't see them getting rid anytime soon.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

120 / 121 / 123 are all East Lothian Council tenders I'm pretty sure?
Plus Eve's only just bought new buses for them so can't see them getting rid anytime soon.

Agreed, the tenders aren’t due for a while and both Prentice and Eve have replaced the buses they use on the contract work in the last year. Service offered is more than acceptable, it’s excellent so I’m quite happy if it stays like that.

 

[Volvodart]

It could be 2025 before the routes are out to tender again.

 

[ScotRail158725]

What was different about them? Just replacements or different design?

I have not got a picture but it looks like the offside radiator grill of a B9TL and it's black instead of having the livery through it. 407 has it as well so its not limited to one batch.