Low Adhesion

[Saltleyman]

Now is the time of year when drivers encounter the worst railhead conditions.
In AB signalling areas a gradient profile is included on the signalbox diagram board so the signaller knows where gradients exist and there steepness.
And as a retired driver I wondered if signallers in IECC/PSBs have access to gradient profiles for the sections they control?
My reason for asking this is the times I have been stopped on a steeply rising gradient to be told of poor railhead conditions and have had great difficulty restarting a heavy train when the previous controlled signal was on a falling or less restrictive gradient and common sensew would have been to stop me at that signal ?

 

[seventh-heaven]

Now is the time of year when drivers encounter the worst railhead conditions.
In AB signalling areas a gradient profile is included on the signalbox diagram board so the signaller knows where gradients exist and there steepness.
And as a retired driver I wondered if signallers in IECC/PSBs have access to gradient profiles for the sections they control?
My reason for asking this is the times I have been stopped on a steeply rising gradient to be told of poor railhead conditions and have had great difficulty restarting a heavy train when the previous controlled signal was on a falling or less restrictive gradient and common sensew would have been to stop me at that signal ?

Why are we stopping trains at all to inform them of low adhesion - there were SPADS last year as a result of trains not being able to stop at signal to be informed! Surely better to use the general broadcast facility on the radio systems where that exists?

 

[GB]

If low adhesion is reported to the signallers then they are duty bound to report it to following services. If it ever turned out that they knew about a slippery area but didnt report it, their heads would be on a chopping block if there was an incident.

Now the question is what is the best means to contact a train in each circumstance? Radios are all well and good but messages do not always get through and can be affected by black spots and weather.

Stopping a train at a controlled signal someway off the affected area is probably the best way but I imagine this is not always possible.

I know on the GEML that down road freight services are regulated at Illford to give them the best chance to get up brentwood bank.

 

[Old Timer]

In an ideal situation trains would be stopped well back before entering the affected area, however there may be a variety of reasons as to why this may not be the case.

There could be internediate jcts, stopping trains in rear may affect other trains, or possibly T2 work.

The preferrable location may well be on an adjoining panel, which is in effect treated as another signabox under the Rules and there are workloads on that or aother adjoining panels to consider.

In the old days every PSB that I was ever involved with did have a gradient diagram provided. Nowadays of course with the removal of unbraked trains, this sort of information is less relevant to the Signalman, and in all probability it no longer forms part of their panel knowledge anyway.

I can understand the frustration on the part of Salteyman, and from my own personal experience we were very very loathe indeed to stop or slow down a freight approaching a rising gradient. In those days we would probably have tried to get a message to the Driver in other ways, however times have moved on and sadly the application of common sense and personal judgement by the Signalman has been largely taken away into the realm of deskbound "experts" who probably have little if any worthwhile experience and will knee-jerk to the safest option at all times. When eventually it dawns on them that the only way to remove all risk is to stop operating, I am sure that this will be the next step.

This over emphasis on absolute Railway safety over and above all else is quite frankly the result of an uneducated media who wish to reduce even the most complex subject into a 60 second soundbite, aided and abetted by Politicians who in the past have cynically used major incidents to score cheap Political points to the detriment of both safety and Society as a whole.

We saw this after Clapham and Purley especially, the outcome of which was to actually make the Railway less safe intrinsically, simply to satisfy a few publicity hungry Opposition MPs and sales seeking newspapers.

 

[O L Leigh]

I have a particular bugbear relating to signallers route knowledge with specific regard to certain CCTV crossings, so I expect that their route knowledge does not extend to an appreciation of the gradients on any given line. I have a feeling that they know where the big hills are, but then it's not just the hills that are a problem as we can experience some horrendous adhesion problems even on the flat at certain locations.

Frankly I find this practice of stopping trains to advise of poor railhead conditions slightly worrying. It's not happened to me yet, but I can see why this is a risky strategy. I'm not sure what the answer is because drivers need to be made aware of exceptionally poor conditions and a general call is not always reliable.

O L Leigh

 

[Saltleyman]

When I was driving I had no problem with being stopped to be advised of "bad railhead conditions " my main concern was the locale sometimes used to advise you,sometimes all it required was a little thought by the "siggie" as to where he stopped you to do so.

 

[TDK]

When I was driving I had no problem with being stopped to be advised of "bad railhead conditions " my main concern was the locale sometimes used to advise you,sometimes all it required was a little thought by the "siggie" as to where he stopped you to do so.

I feel it is bad practise stopping any train during the leaf fall period to inform the driver of low adhesion conditions, I was stopped between Shrewsbury and Wolves to be told although my train was not stopping in the location where the adhesion problems were,a train had over run the platform at a non stopping station for my service, I managed to stop at the signal however it did not do the wheel sets any good at all with the set being taken out for wheel turning that day. I think the general broadcast method should be adopted with the head code of the train announced and the exact location with the driver acknowleging the broadcast, if the broadcast is not acknowledged then maybe they should be stopped.

 

[O L Leigh]

I agree that the general call facility could be better used for this, as it informs all drivers in the area. However, it is not completely reliable as not all drivers will hear it. Some may miss it due to being in the wrong signalling area, others will have just booked-on or come back off their breaks and yet others will have been changing ends and therefore be away from the cab. It's a good idea sure, but there are too many holes and the risks of a driver legitmately not hearing the information are too great.

Generally I agree with Saltleyman that there is no problem in being stopped and told of poor adhesion provided that it is done sensibly. It's not always possible, but it would be an idea to make the call to coincide with a station stop. While conditions in platforms are not always ideal, locations where lots of trains are braking and accelerating tend to give better grip than those where trains are just coasting because the additional forces of braking and accelerating on the rail tend to cut through the contamination. It's getting stopped out in the back of beyond under a huge stand of mature trees where hardly anyone stops in the normal course of events that causes the problems, irrespective of the gradient.

O L Leigh

 

[starrymarkb]

Maybe motorway style hazard warning boards might be a good idea. I know there is one near Brum on the approach from Cheltenham

 

[73110]

Maybe motorway style hazard warning boards might be a good idea. I know there is one near Brum on the approach from Cheltenham

They trailed that on the MML. I think there are 4 of them between London and Bedford.

They used to work. I think they were connected to a centre in Derby. Not seen one working for years now.

 

[westcoaster]

The one on the approach th ST Albans was working last year but only on real bad days,

 

[TDK]

The one on the approach th ST Albans was working last year but only on real bad days,

There is also one between Madeley Junction and Oxley but I was still stopped as the boards were not working