Lumo - new Open Access operator on the East Coast Main Line

[High Dyke]

It's the other thing you can specialise in, apart from brain science.

 

[Strat-tastic]

It's the other thing you can specialise in, apart from brain science.

Or a Dave Gorman Catphrase

 

[Starmill]

Nothing like trying to work constructively with a new provider before it’s even started to iron out any teething troubles.

Refusing to carry a customer (if that were indeed what happened, obviously I wasn't there when the booking request was made) because they needed to use the wheelchair space would be unlawful.

If the operator didn't want to comply with the law from day one, they were of course free to delay the beginning of their service.

 

[Ianno87]

Refusing to carry a customer (if that were indeed what happened, obviously I wasn't there when the booking request was made) because they needed to use the wheelchair space would be unlawful.

I don't think that is the case - it's more that the user was unable to book the space (due to no booking process being in place for it). So they are not being refused travel, they are having to rely on the space not being occupied on the day of travel.

 

[JonathanH]

Worth noting that the £69 fare is actually available right up to departure.

...assuming there is space. A single fare of £79.20 is available on LNER trains (and Lumo trains for that matter) right up to departure at the times Lumo is running.

I do wonder how the loadings will be managed tomorrow if there is any element of overbooking - presumably a secondary barrier line will be in place inside the automatic gateline.

 

[Starmill]

I don't think that is the case - it's more that the user was unable to book the space (due to no booking process being in place for it). So they are not being refused travel, they are having to rely on the space not being occupied on the day of travel.

Hm that is interesting. Given that booking in advance isn't mandatory whether the customer is using the wheelchair space or not, there may not be a case that any descrimination is happening. So it then becomes a question of the "reasonable adjustment" - but simply providing the necessary spaces usually fulfills this, e.g. you cannot book any wheelchair spaces on TfL Rail trains, but they do all have them.

...assuming there is space. A single fare of £79.20 is available on LNER trains (and Lumo trains for that matter) right up to departure at the times Lumo is running.

I do wonder how the loadings will be managed tomorrow if there is any element of overbooking - presumably a secondary barrier line will be in place inside the automatic gateline.

Are they going to bother with that? Or just have people standing up?

 

[JonathanH]

Are they going to bother with that? Or just have people standing up?

What headline is more damaging? Passengers standing from London to Edinburgh or passengers turned away who had tickets?

Hm that is interesting. Given that booking in advance isn't mandatory whether the customer is using the wheelchair space or not, there may not be a case that any descrimination is happening. So it then becomes a question of the "reasonable adjustment" - but simply providing the necessary spaces usually fulfills this, e.g. you cannot book any wheelchair spaces on TfL Rail trains, but they do all have them.

There is a question of how many wheelchair spaces are available though as well. If 20 wheelchair users all tried to book on one train some of them could well have to be turned away whereas you can probably get 20 wheelchair users on a 345.

 

[Ianno87]

Hm that is interesting. Given that booking in advance isn't mandatory whether the customer is using the wheelchair space or not, there may not be a case that any descrimination is happening. So it then becomes a question of the "reasonable adjustment" - but simply providing the necessary spaces usually fulfills this, e.g. you cannot book any wheelchair spaces on TfL Rail trains, but they do all have them.

Or the "reasonable adjustment" is provision of a taxi, or permitting for travel on the next available train (of any operator) in the event the wheelchair space is occupied.

After all, lots of other services already work on the basis of first-come-first-served for the wheelchair space (though not usually long distance services, which are generally reservable)

What headline is more damaging? Passengers standing from London to Edinburgh or passengers turned away who had tickets?

Therein lies the crux of the compulsory reservations debate...

"You've sold too many tickets!" versus "I've paid £80 and they won't even let me on the train!".

 

[py_megapixel]

Or the "reasonable adjustment" is provision of a taxi, or permitting for travel on the next available train (of any operator) in the event the wheelchair space is occupied.

The former doesn't sound very "reasonable" fora 4-hour journey. Taxis don't have toilets,and will afford the passenger far less space than the train they would have been on. The latter might work though.

 

[John R]

If the easyJet flight was 93% full that might indicate quite healthy demand for the route in general. Perhaps there's a market for a Lumo equivalent running between London and Glasgow.

The former doesn't sound very "reasonable" fora 4-hour journey. Taxis don't have toilets,and will afford the passenger far less space than the train they would have been on. The latter might work though.

In this case it was actually a 15 min journey from Newcastle to Morpeth. And the request as I understand it, rather bizarrely was initially through LNER's booking system, rather than Lumo's direct. Given Lumo have been saying for some time that all reservable seats on their service in the first few weeks (and certainly on the first day) were fully booked, it's probably not a complete surprise that any wheelchair allocation was taken.

 

[Ianno87]

In this case it was actually a 15 min journey from Newcastle to Morpeth. And the request as I understand it, rather bizarrely was initially through LNER's booking system, rather than Lumo's direct. Given Lumo have been saying for some time that all reservable seats on their service in the first few weeks (and certainly on the first day) were fully booked, it's probably not a complete surprise that any wheelchair allocation was taken.

I would also challenge whether accommodating somebody in limited space on such a short journey is the best use of capacity (in effect blocking that capacity for somebdoy making a much longer journey) when there is a regular Northern service available between Newcastle and Morpeth where this would not be the case.

(As an able-bodied person I am aware of generally not having to deal with this constraint)

 

[Bletchleyite]

I see Doug Paulley has already complained to the ORR and is threatening legal action against them, because when he tried to book a wheelchair space from Newcastle to Morpeth on the first day and for some reason it’s been refused.

Nothing like trying to work constructively with a new provider before it’s even started to iron out any teething troubles.

I had the impression he was more shouting about the band equipment plonked in the wheelchair area...on a train which was not open to the public (purely a prebooked-only press run) and on which no wheelchair using member of the Press was attending.

I do support his crusade for dealing with things like e.g. some staff not correctly installing ramps (which is unnecessary risk to save 5 seconds) or the unacceptable number of assistance failures you still seem to get, but I think he sometimes overdoes it slightly.

...assuming there is space. A single fare of £79.20 is available on LNER trains (and Lumo trains for that matter) right up to departure at the times Lumo is running. .

Reservations are not compulsory on Lumo, to my great surprise. (They may have the flag on in the timetable data like LNER do, but they haven't gone fully CR, presumably for ORCATS raid reasons).

The ticket concerned is an Anytime Day Single.

I would also challenge whether accommodating somebody in limited space on such a short journey is the best use of capacity (in effect blocking that capacity for somebdoy making a much longer journey) when there is a regular Northern service available between Newcastle and Morpeth where this would not be the case.

(As an able-bodied person I am aware of generally not having to deal with this constraint)

That's a very interesting point. It isn't practical (nor in line with demand) to have lots of wheelchair spaces on long distance trains, as that would result in far fewer seats, and there are far more people who can't stand for a 4 hour journey (such as the vast majority of people over about 70 years of age) than there are wheelchair users. The situation with local trains is rather different as journeys are much shorter.

In terms of non-disabled passengers people doing the short distance runs will just be taking empty seats after people have got off at e.g. Newcastle, which is the same reason why there are Avanti Only fares for e.g. Stockport-Manchester. But short of banning carrying anyone for that journey it's impossible not to discriminate in some form there.

(New thread to discuss this more widely: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ould-a-train-of-a-given-capacity-have.223898/)

Hmm.

 

[PG]

Reservations are not compulsory on Lumo, to my great surprise. (They may have the flag on in the timetable data like LNER do, but they haven't gone fully CR, presumably for ORCATS raid reasons).

Are any of the other open access operators CR? If not what makes you think that Lumo should be?

 

[Ianno87]

Are any of the other open access operators CR? If not what makes you think that Lumo should be?

Grand Central have been operating CR since restarting after Lockdowns.

 

[SELLCPN]

Got an anytime Lumo only ticket for tomorrow morning... We have no seat reservation, and according to tweets they are sold out.

Is there a chance tomorrow's train will be over capacity due to the amount of Lumo only tickets sold, and what will they/are they required to do in this situation?

Is there also an unreserved carriage to aim for?

 

[swt_passenger]

Are any of the other open access operators CR? If not what makes you think that Lumo should be?

Well I think @Bletchleyite has been proposing that compulsory reservations would be the norm for Lumo for a couple of years, but always without any evidence…

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are any of the other open access operators CR? If not what makes you think that Lumo should be?

Because they stated that they were going to work like a low-cost airline, and I'd taken that to mean they wouldn't have an Anytime fare at all nor accept the interavailable ones, but they do both of those things.

Grand Central have been operating CR since restarting after Lockdowns.

Actual CR i.e. refusing standees (or only taking a specific number) as LNER were doing before, or just the timetable flag like LNER now but otherwise doing nothing to prevent people buying a ticket "for" another train and using it on that one?

I think they'd have to use the timetable flag thing for as long as LNER does as otherwise they could end up with a serious issue. I get the feeling (though it's anecdotal) that said flag (as Avanti are doing it as well) is causing increased use of WMT's LNR-branded trains because some Avanti trains are "full".

 

[hexagon789]

Is there also an unreserved carriage to aim for?

Coach E

 

[Ianno87]

Got an anytime Lumo only ticket for tomorrow morning... We have no seat reservation, and according to tweets they are sold out.

Is there a chance tomorrow's train will be over capacity due to the amount of Lumo only tickets sold, and what will they/are they required to do in this situation?

Is there also an unreserved carriage to aim for?

They are Tweeting that you will only be able to travel with an existing Seat Reservation: https://twitter.com/LumoTravel/status/1451568470274068490?t=9VSm47tT8NS6kak5JOXdRw&s=19

3 days to go until launch and we're completely sold out for next week. Due to the overwhelming response, you can only travel with Lumo from 25/10/21 to 01/12/21 if you have an existing seat reservation. Thanks to everyone who’s booked, we can’t wait to welcome you onboard!

 

[alistairlees]

All four Lumo trains for tomorrow (and, I assume, all other days) are in the timetable data as "Mandatory reservation".

This is sensible otherwise, when LNER are full, everyone will book on Lumo, and there will be very severe overcrowding (as Grand Central discovered when they did not "Reservations Mandatory", but LNER did).

Basically, you have to follow what the big TOC on your route does, if you want to avoid PR disasters.

 

[Starmill]

Actual CR i.e. refusing standees (or only taking a specific number) as LNER were doing before, or just the timetable flag like LNER now but otherwise doing nothing to prevent people buying a ticket "for" another train and using it on that one?

Grand Central weren't shown as being reservation compulsory on Northern's information screens recently when I saw them. It seems astonishingly unlikely that they've turned people away.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Grand Central weren't shown as being reservation compulsory ob Northern's information screens recently when I saw them. It seems astonishingly unlikely that they've turned people away.

I suspect they are probably doing as @alistairlees says, i.e. the same as LNER.

 

[Watershed]

Grand Central have been operating CR since restarting after Lockdowns.

Not anymore. And I suspect that was heavily influenced by LNER's ludicrous policy.

 

[Mainline421]

They are Tweeting that you will only be able to travel with an existing Seat Reservation: https://twitter.com/LumoTravel/status/1451568470274068490?t=9VSm47tT8NS6kak5JOXdRw&s=19

...after selling loads of Lumo-only Anytime singles without seat reservations. Are they actually going to try denying boarding!?

 

[Bletchleyite]

...after selling loads of Lumo-only Anytime singles without seat reservations. Are they actually going to try denying boarding!?

Didn't they have the CR flag set the whole time? Oops, this has the potential to be a big publicity error for them then (and potentially end them up in Court).

 

[Starmill]

All four Lumo trains for tomorrow (and, I assume, all other days) are in the timetable data as "Mandatory reservation".

It appears they're not on 30th October and perhaps afterwards.

 

[PG]

...after selling loads of Lumo-only Anytime singles without seat reservations. Are they actually going to try denying boarding!?

According to @hexagon789 Coach E is not reserveable so presumably Anytime ticket holders will be accommodated there?

 

[Starmill]

Didn't they have the CR flag set the whole time?

The 1045 from London tomorrow morning has been available to book since early September, when the news of the launch date was first publicised. The flag was Reservations Available, like most of their services. But they changed this one (and probably the others up to 29th October) to Reservations Compulsory on 17th October.

 

[Mainline421]

Didn't they have the CR flag set the whole time? Oops, this has the potential to be a big publicity error for them then (and potentially end them up in Court).

It was only added last week for the 25th, and the rest of next week wasn't set as CR until yesterday. They announced this on Twitter just before 17:00 Friday then seemingly went home for the weekend.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The 1045 from London tomorrow morning has been available to book since early September, when the news of the launch date was first publicised. The flag was Reservations Available, like most of their services. But they changed this one (and probably the others up to 29th October) to Reservations Compulsory on 17th October.

That is very, very naughty if they intend to use that to refuse boarding (as their Twitter implies) rather than just to avoid any more Anytimes being sold "for" those trains.