You mean from Bedford St. Johns? Would it not be reasonable to use Bedford?
No, for example for a journey such Lidlington - Hampstead Heath via West Hampstead.
You mean from Bedford St. Johns? Would it not be reasonable to use Bedford?
Care to try it?
Why would I want to visit Leicester?
Why would I want to visit Leicester?
Only you could know, the 0732 is from Luton.
Are they? All I see is a list of what is valid, nothing to say what isn't valid. By what you have said, you must agree that any train before 0914 is as valid as any after that because they are not explicitly prohibited.
So are you actually saying that was isn't explicitly prohibited may, or may not, be permitted depending on what agenda you have?
The text states that travel from Bedford, Luton, and other stations is permitted after a certain time. Therefore travel from those stations is not permitted before that time....
....There is nothing stated about other stations, not in the list....
....According to some people in this thread, we should calculate the time that those trains pass the station on the restriction, although whether we should use the origin station of the ticket, or all times on the restriction, or something else, has not been clearly explained.....
....Furthermore, some tickets with this restriction will not involve travel via any of the stations on the list. For these tickets, there are no grounds to pick an arbitrary 'not valid before' time, and nobody has attempted to explain what restriction, if any, should apply to these routes....
My view is that per consumer contract law, where there is any ambiguity in the contract, it should be interpreted in favour of the consumer. You obviously have a different view.
So there is nothing to say that it is valid at all then?
There are loads of restrictions like this, just look for a journey to, from or via London and see how many have restrictions not just from London but stations outside of London, no-one argues about those.
The restriction says when the ticket is valid, you do the maths. You have an issue with those restrictions I suggest you contact the TOC concerned so that they can alter them.
Okay, so why can't I use the 0732 from Luton on that ticket? If you are right about what is not explicitly prohibited, and there is NOTHING to explicitly prohibit it, why would it not be permitted?
it is unreasonable to read any further restrictions beyond those plainly stated.
Again, that's just one opinion. I think it's perfectly reasonable to interpret it as restricting travel via those routes at earlier times; even if the train doesn't stop.
I think that it would be extremely naive (and that's being kind!) for anyone to deliberately risk putting themselves in front of a magistrate with that argument - I really don't think it would end well.
Obviously that's assuming you don't pay the excess. If you would pay the excess anyway when you inevitably get challenged, what's the point of arguing about it?The appropriate 'penalty' if travelling during peak times on an off-peak ticket is an excess to an anytime ticket. Not a trip to the magistrates court.
Obviously that's assuming you don't pay the excess. If you would pay the excess anyway when you inevitably get challenged, what's the point of arguing about it?
....But there isn't NOTHING to say it is not permitted. It is stated that trains from those stations are permitted after those times....
....The corollary of that statement is that trains from those stations are not permitted before those times...
....Otherwise they might as well replace the text with 'ooga booga bish bash bosh', because it would be equally meaningless....
The restriction states a train on which the ticket is valid, yes? And it states that all later trains are valid, yes? So where does it say that earlier trains are not valid? It doesn't.
Ah, so you think that because it IMPLIES that it is prohibited, it is prohibited. even though it is not explicitly prohibited? Perhaps now we are getting somewhere.
Given that the ticket has no validity north of Luton, that it originates at Luton, that the restriction code states that trains at or after 0914 are valid and that you seem now to believe trains before 0914 are not valid, how can a ticket not valid before 0914 be used before 0914?
It is necessary that they are prohibited from these stations, otherwise the text has no meaning, and clearly that is not a reasonable argument....
....It is not necessary that trains not calling at those stations be prohibited....
....Further, nobody in this thread has explained what the validity of these tickets should be when the origin is not one of the named stations....
....Such tickets can be used before 0914, according to NRE, on journeys that do not call at one of the named stations....
....The restriction applies to the named stations before the named times....
....Seems simple enough to me, there is no need to try and calculate passing times, or imagine words that aren't there.
Please explain? How can we know that a ticket, not valid before 0914, is valid if we do not know when the train passes? Also, given that there is no distinction between passing and stopping trains in the restriction code, the only way to believe passing trains are fine at all times is to believe that the restriction only applies to stopping trains. There are no words in the restriction code to support this theory, so who is imagining words that aren't there?
The restriction - "valid on the train shown and all later services" - clearly lists departures of trains. A train cannot depart a station if it does not stop there. Therefore the restriction "valid on 0914 train and all later services" does not apply to a train that does not stop at Luton. This does not require a leap of logic. This does not require inserting words that aren't there, or ignoring words that are there. It is a twist of logic to claim that the words 'train' and 'service' do not actually refer to departures but simply to an arbitrary point in time.
The restriction - "valid on the train shown and all later services" - clearly lists departures of trains. A train cannot depart a station if it does not stop there.
I've resisted wading into this discussion until now, but...
I think the only way that makes any sense to interpret these rules with split tickets is that a train still departs from a station even if it does not call there. In the electronic timetables, there is a timing point at most stations that are passed through which I would class as the departure time.
I've resisted wading into this discussion until now, but...
I think the only way that makes any sense to interpret these rules with split tickets is that a train still departs from a station even if it does not call there. In the electronic timetables, there is a timing point at most stations that are passed through which I would class as the departure time.