Luton: Why does it feel like a rundown Northern ex-mill town but is 45 minutes from London?

[fowler9]

And I could easily say I found greater ignorance in the north when I lived up near Chester (Shotton) for a few years. However upon growing up I realised that ignorance isn't a North v South thing. It's about how accepting an area is of outsiders. IE I liked Manchester (didn't like Liverpool though), found the locals generally to be very nice, although it maybe because I have family there so I'm somewhat biased.

I don't understand why so many people get so offended by their home towns being called dumps. Grow up!
To be honest when my hometown of Reading got listed in crap towns a while ago it installed a sense of pride. I come from a dump and proud, I currently live in Aldershot, which I like as it reminds me of Reading 10 years ago. The missus is trying to drag me out to Alton, but I can't think of anything worse than living in some semi-rural, cliquey middle class, Georgian market town.

I also go to South Bank Uni in Elephant and Castle and have friends in Grove Park South London, so all I've known all my life are places that are pretty ugly. To be honest I like Elephant and Castle for it's grit factor. You meet far more interesting people in dumps, I'd rather be talking to the local spiceheads about new world order conspiracy theorys, than middle managers about house prices.

Disappointed you didn't find Liverpool very welcoming, not disappointed in you but in the people you met. I'm proud of my city and hope I am always welcoming, I am more than aware though that there is a reasonable size of the population of our city who think we are all friendly and absolutely hilarious without actually being personally willing to be so themselves.

 

[muddythefish]

are there run down ex-mill towns in the north? yes
does Luton feel like one of those same towns? yes

leading to the question... why is that?

I can't see what's so offensive about that, but of course some people just like to get offended for the sake of it don't they?

Are there run down towns in the south? Yes
Does Luton feel like another one of those towns? Yes

So why compare it to the north unless you have an agenda / are prejudiced or both

 

[muddythefish]

Have you ever been here?

Yes, which is why I said it. MK is so awful I'd rather live in Luton

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, which is why I said it. MK is so awful I'd rather live in Luton

I can't help but find that entertaining. The centre is a bit rubbish (but so's Luton) but the rest of it is beautifully green, low density, easy to get around (even the bus service is now vaguely decent) and with lots of parks and similar areas to enjoy.

 

[nlogax]

Yes, which is why I said it. MK is so awful I'd rather live in Luton

Yeahhh.. not sure where you're getting that impression. Once you get out of the commercial grid MK becomes a (relatively) green and pleasant place to live. Especially good for families.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yeahhh.. not sure where you're getting that impression. Once you get out of the commercial grid MK becomes a (relatively) green and pleasant place to live. Especially good for families.

Agreed. It might not offer a lot for twentysomethings (though London is pretty easy to get to), but it is near perfect as a place to bring up kids, particularly teenagers who can, using the Redway cycle and footpath network, roam near enough the entire town (the size of the main city area of Liverpool) on foot and by bicycle in a very high level of safety barely having to cross anything bigger than a small residential street.

(This does have the downside that MK kids have no road sense, but on a day to day basis it's really quite good)

 

[gazthomas]

We should have a "crap towns" thread like the books of the same name!

I never thought I'd say this but the middle of Luton is nicer than the middle of Hatfield!

 

[class387]

We should have a "crap towns" thread like the books of the same name!

I never thought I'd say this but the middle of Luton is nicer than the middle of Hatfield!

Hatfield town centre is disgusting. As a resident of Hatfield I am generally happy with the town, but it really needs a proper high street and centre. Parkhouse Court could have been it but is now even worse than the centre.

Yes, Luton is aesthetically nicer, but I still hate it more given the unsafe and threatening atmosphere that is prevalent.

 

[AlterEgo]

Yeahhh.. not sure where you're getting that impression. Once you get out of the commercial grid MK becomes a (relatively) green and pleasant place to live. Especially good for families.

I wouldn’t bother. He’s just wound himself up because he can’t admit there are higher levels of deprivation in the North. It’s been quite funny, and sweet.

 

[jon0844]

Hatfield town centre is disgusting. As a resident of Hatfield I am generally happy with the town I am generally happy with it, but it really needs a proper high street and centre. Parkhouse Court could have been it but is now even worse than the centre.

Yes, Luton is aesthetically nicer, but I still hate it more given the unsafe and threatening atmosphere that is prevalent.

Hatfield town centre will be getting some more investment soon, but they can't seem to get the alcohol ban back in place, and they don't enforce littering or cycling or begging - or anything in fact. It's a mess, but one that could be fixed relatively easily with a few more police/warden patrols. At the moment they actively avoid the town centre.

Parkhouse Court was a ghetto from day one. The bus station was a joke and now used as a car park. It basically has an Aldi and Wetherspoons, both of which are the only reasons to go there and ideally by car so you can get away quick.

That said, I've never really felt unsafe in all my time living in Hatfield - but I don't spend much time in the town centre. That's perhaps the problem. Nobody goes there, so it is left to rot and retailers have little chance of making any money.

 

[AM9]

Yes, which is why I said it. MK is so awful I'd rather live in Luton

That's because it is more like a northern town.

 

[AlterEgo]

That's because it is more like a northern town.

Touché.

 

[radamfi]

Is it actually so great to live in a "posh" town anyway? For example, Guildford is ludicrously expensive, but what are you actually paying for? There are still large areas of social housing so you aren't avoiding poorer people by moving to Guildford.

 

[AM9]

Is it actually so great to live in a "posh" town anyway? For example, Guildford is ludicrously expensive, but what are you actually paying for? There are still large areas of social housing so you aren't avoiding poorer people by moving to Guildford.

Well I can't speak for Guildford but all 'proper' towns/cities* have social housing provisions in order that local employers can recruit a workforce. I've never seen 'poorer people' as the problem, indeed, poorly behaved people with too much time and money are a much bigger problem.
However, at some of these settlements, the social housing is in part 'sink estates' which can bring problems that affect a greater area. I have been told that there is an area within Winchester that has issues which can at times affect the city as a whole. Having lived in St Albans for over 25 years, I've yet to see a housing locality that I'd be afraid to walk down any time of day or night, but the city centre can get a little wild on Friday and Saturday evenings when visiting drinkers from neighbouring towns inhabit the streets. They presumably have money to fund their habit.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Well I can't speak for Guildford but all 'proper' towns/cities* have social housing provisions in order that local employers can recruit a workforce. I've never seen 'poorer people' as the problem, indeed, poorly behaved people with too much time and money are a much bigger problem.
However, at some of these settlements, the social housing is in part 'sink estates' which can bring problems that affect a greater area. I have been told that there is an area within Winchester that has issues which can at times affect the city as a whole. Having lived in St Albans for over 25 years, I've yet to see a housing locality that I'd be afraid to walk down any time of day or night, but the city centre can get a little wild on Friday and Saturday evenings when visiting drinkers from neighbouring towns inhabit the streets. They presumably have money to fund their habit.

Have you observed the Friday and Saturday night security guards at the City station ? - clearly there to support the staff - you really would not want to tangle with them. They are there for the reason to reassure the public and deal with inwards drinkers.

 

[AM9]

Have you observed the Friday and Saturday night security guards at the City station ? - clearly there to support the staff - you really would not want to tangle with them. They are there for the reason to reassure the public and deal with inwards drinkers.

Wow, that is news to me although I rarely travel back from London that late.
Having said that, there was a drunk joining the train that I had just got off (after midnight) on returning from the Rolling Stones gig at the London Stadium. I seem to remember that there were a couple of uniformed security guards hovering in the booking hall. A downside of living in a city that is the home of CAMRA and has a good selection of restaurants and drinking establishments.

 

[Bromley boy]

Is it actually so great to live in a "posh" town anyway? For example, Guildford is ludicrously expensive, but what are you actually paying for? There are still large areas of social housing so you aren't avoiding poorer people by moving to Guildford.

Nope.

Towns I have personal experience of which are “posh”, at least in parts: Bromley, Epsom, Kingston, Sevenoaks. All of which have a seemy underbelly.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Wow, that is news to me although I rarely travel back from London that late.
Having said that, there was a drunk joining the train that I had just got off (after midnight) on returning from the Rolling Stones gig at the London Stadium. I seem to remember that there were a couple of uniformed security guards hovering in the booking hall. A downside of living in a city that is the home of CAMRA and has a good selection of restaurants and drinking establishments.

In nearly 30 years of travelling on the line - at all hours etc , I cannot say I have seen a really disturbing issue ......(same goes for the city actually) - yes - assaulted by some commuters in disruption etc , assisted to detain a petty thief in the market , but OK.

Re social housing and slightly"iffy" areas - they are everywhere - unless we all want to live in exclusive and very secure gated communities - we should recall the Haussman principle in 1840s Paris where all ranks of societies lived in the same block. I think they call it social cohesion. A certain ex Prime Minister mentioned that "we are all in this together" ..

 

[Dentonian]

Luton feels like a northern mill town because of ethnic tensions between white people and second and third generation Islamic immigrants. It’s a dreadful place.

I would stick to your plastic cows if I was you. There are ethnic/religious tensions in Oldham, but the likes of south Manchester are worse than Ashton or Bolton. You wouldn't describe Longsight as a mill town, would you?

 

[AlterEgo]

I would stick to your plastic cows if I was you. There are ethnic/religious tensions in Oldham, but the likes of south Manchester are worse than Ashton or Bolton. You wouldn't describe Longsight as a mill town, would you?

I’ve never been to Longsight so I’ve no idea.

 

[muddythefish]

I’ve never been to Longsight so I’ve no idea.

You're right, you've no idea.

 

[muddythefish]

I would stick to your plastic cows if I was you. There are ethnic/religious tensions in Oldham, but the likes of south Manchester are worse than Ashton or Bolton. You wouldn't describe Longsight as a mill town, would you?

Milton Keynes is a soulless place on the lines of an American city; it doesn't feel like being in England at all.

 

[muddythefish]

That's because it is more like a northern town.

....because it has a sense of identity and community. Living in St Albans you wouldn't know.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Milton Keynes is a soulless place on the lines of an American city; it doesn't feel like being in England at all.

I find walking out of the station feels like a German city because of the large Bahnhofsvorplatz with a big clock on it and a load of buses right there providing an actual good quality interchange (which is also quite foreign to the UK). Add some trams and it'd be even more Germanic.

The rest of it is like a load of Barratt's estates, but it's all very green, low density, easy to drive around etc. And there are the "hidden gems" - the old villages - earlier on I had a pint outside a pub in a 16th century village (the Barge in Woughton on the Green, a really nice pub) which elsewhere would be spoilt by traffic but in MK isn't because it's all on the grid.

I find most people who do it down have just visited the fairly average shopping centre, or the office areas which are just like a fairly average business park. Unlike most places you can't see what it's really like from the main roads, you have to get off them and explore.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would stick to your plastic cows if I was you. There are ethnic/religious tensions in Oldham, but the likes of south Manchester are worse than Ashton or Bolton. You wouldn't describe Longsight as a mill town, would you?

When I lived in South Manchester in the late 90s/early 2000s it was all quite well integrated unlike the mill towns; you were certainly not going to be threatened[1] if you walk through Longsight with white skin, say, or through other areas with Asian/black skin. Has it got worse since?

[1] Other than by the scallies who might want your wallet.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I find walking out of the station feels like a German city because of the large Bahnhofsvorplatz with a big clock on it and a load of buses right there providing an actual good quality interchange (which is also quite foreign to the UK). Add some trams and it'd be even more Germanic.

The rest of it is like a load of Barratt's estates, but it's all very green, low density, easy to drive around etc. And there are the "hidden gems" - the old villages - earlier on I had a pint outside a pub in a 16th century village (the Barge in Woughton on the Green, a really nice pub) which elsewhere would be spoilt by traffic but in MK isn't because it's all on the grid.

I find most people who do it down have just visited the fairly average shopping centre, or the office areas which are just like a fairly average business park. Unlike most places you can't see what it's really like from the main roads, you have to get off them and explore.

No great fan of what you see outside the station at MK , but it seems to tick a lot of boxes for those who live there , with solid loyalty - therefore they should be the judge of the City.

 

[muddythefish]

No great fan of what you see outside the station at MK , but it seems to tick a lot of boxes for those who live there , with solid loyalty - therefore they should be the judge of the City.

And so should those who live in "northern mill towns", especially when they come under attack from southerners.

Hence the objection to the title of the thread.

 

[Bromley boy]

And so should those who live in "northern mill towns", especially when they come under attack from southerners.

Hence the objection to the title of the thread.

Your stance is utterly bizarre. You appear to be obsessed with “northerners versus southerners”.

You do realise this thread includes contributions from northerners, all of whom appear to recognise the description of northern mill towns? The only person getting offended is you.

What does that tell you?

 

[nlogax]

Milton Keynes is a soulless place on the lines of an American city; it doesn't feel like being in England at all.

So you've not gone beyond the middle bit. I see. Don't let the facts get in the way of your weird argument, eh?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

We should have a "crap towns" thread like the books of the same name!

I never thought I'd say this but the middle of Luton is nicer than the middle of Hatfield!

Speaking of crap towns, yesterday I noticed hoardings up outside the (still open) pub at Dewsbury station with posters detailing the upcoming "gateway" improvements. On these posters is a section which claims the station at present offers no real sense of arrival to the town (the exact wording is different, but that's the gist). However anyone who has visited Dewsbury will know that despite some lovely architecture among the carbuncles, it is pretty much a ghost town. Even without the proposed improvements to the station environment, if you arrive by train it's all downhill from there, both topographically and figuratively!