Manchester - Liverpool Electrification

[Class377/5]

This needs publicising as many railway pundits and commentators are talking about the North having basket case 319s.

Its known within industry but it hardly helps the screaming headlines some publications like to produce.

No matter what state the /3s are in, they aren't as good as promise which is the main reason people are unhappy.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

For some to say that the Class 319 should be accepted in whatsoever unrefurbished state they are offered strikes me as being utter desperation borne out of years of Northern Rail being recipients of Class 142 Pacers from other regions.

 

[DJH1971]

For some to say that the Class 319 should be accepted in whatsoever unrefurbished state they are offered strikes me as being utter desperation borne out of years of Northern Rail being recipients of Class 142 Pacers from other regions.

Well, anything else has to be better than the nodding donkeys!

 

[GRALISTAIR]

For some to say that the Class 319 should be accepted in whatsoever unrefurbished state they are offered strikes me as being utter desperation borne out of years of Northern Rail being recipients of Class 142 Pacers from other regions.

I understand where you are coming from. I am a northerner born and bred but educated in London. It seems that the north always loses out. However, I take a slightly different view. Lets get the bloody thing electrified and worry about the rolling stock later.

 

[Wavertreelad]

I understand where you are coming from. I am a northerner born and bred but educated in London. It seems that the north always loses out. However, I take a slightly different view. Lets get the bloody thing electrified and worry about the rolling stock later.

I tend to agree, whatever comes north as long as it is capable of movement, gets a good internal clean then put it in to service. The vast majority of the public I suspect will not be too interested in mod cons, if they can get a seat, read their paper, or use their mobile for much of the journey. Engineering and electrical faults might keep the maintenance departments busy but they will learn and develop solutions which can then be incorporated into refurbishments. Lets gets bums on seats should be message, having spent all that taxpayers money putting up the wires.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

For some to say that the Class 319 should be accepted in whatsoever unrefurbished state they are offered strikes me as being utter desperation borne out of years of Northern Rail being recipients of Class 142 Pacers from other regions.

Tbf, Northern will get stick whichever way it goes. Refurbish first and it's "diesels under the wire", "lack of stock", "no forward planning", etc, etc. If they put them straight into service it's "crappy old units", "not what we were promised", "should have been refurbished first", etc, etc.

To be blunt, right now Northern needs stock in service more than it needs the units to be refurbished.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Let's get bums on seats should be the message, having spent all that taxpayers money putting up the wires.

Perhaps some would also wish for a poorer-quality electrification "taxpayers expenditure" on the infrastructure for electrification to go along with the "taxpayers" second-rate rolling stock that will be using this...

 

[deltic08]

Its known within industry but it hardly helps the screaming headlines some publications like to produce.

No matter what state the /3s are in, they aren't as good as promise which is the main reason people are unhappy.

I agree.

 

[edwin_m]

Do we know whether the /3s are to be transferred to Northern long-term?

or as short-term cover while other sub-fleets of 319 receive a refurbishment to replace them at Northern later?

or will Northern get some refurbished 319s later, allowing the /3s to go for refurbishment then return to Northern?

or some other arrangement?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Do we know whether the /3s are to be transferred to Northern long-term?
or as short-term cover while other sub-fleets of 319 receive a refurbishment to replace them at Northern later?
or will Northern get some refurbished 319s later, allowing the /3s to go for refurbishment then return to Northern?
or some other arrangement?

We'll have to wait until Porterbrook show the new lease end dates.
Northern won't have signed up beyond 2016, but maybe the DfT has done a Section 54 agreement to a later date.
Until all the 319 units have a new home it won't be clear what their long-term future is, together with any upgrade plans.
The lease end for all the 319s with FCC is shown currently as 14 Sept 2014.

 

[nw-sparks]

The lines between Liverpool Lime Street and St Helens Junction and St Helens Central will be closed from Saturday 5th July till Monday 14th July and trains will be replaced with coaches supplied by First Rail Support coaches will run all stations and also fast between Lime Street, Wavertree Tech park, Lea Green and St Helens Jct and fast between Lime st, Huyton and St Helens Central.

The timetable changes have now appeared in the database, and I note they currently show normal service on Saturday 12th and Sunday 13th.

Not sure if the works have been shortened or there are more updates to come.

Phil

 

[Wavertreelad]

Tbf, Northern will get stick whichever way it goes. Refurbish first and it's "diesels under the wire", "lack of stock", "no forward planning", etc, etc. If they put them straight into service it's "crappy old units", "not what we were promised", "should have been refurbished first", etc, etc.

To be blunt, right now Northern needs stock in service more than it needs the units to be refurbished.

Absolutely!

 

[DJH1971]

The timetable changes have now appeared in the database, and I note they currently show normal service on Saturday 12th and Sunday 13th.

Not sure if the works have been shortened or there are more updates to come.

Phil

Looks like I won't be needing the car then! ????????????

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Perhaps some would also wish for a poorer-quality electrification "taxpayers expenditure" on the infrastructure for electrification to go along with ---

With all due respect I did not say that nor am I trying to imply it.

 

[Wavertreelad]

With all due respect I did not say that nor am I trying to imply it.

But I did

Quote:
Originally Posted by GRALISTAIR View Post
I understand where you are coming from. I am a northerner born and bred but educated in London. It seems that the north always loses out. However, I take a slightly different view. Lets get the bloody thing electrified and worry about the rolling stock later. Unquote

My response - Quote
I tend to agree, whatever comes north as long as it is capable of movement, gets a good internal clean then put it in to service. The vast majority of the public I suspect will not be too interested in mod cons, if they can get a seat, read their paper, or use their mobile for much of the journey. Engineering and electrical faults might keep the maintenance departments busy but they will learn and develop solutions which can then be incorporated into refurbishments. Lets gets bums on seats should be message, having spent all that taxpayers money putting up the wires. Unquote

As a UK taxpayer I welcome the electrification of the network and the huge capital outlay involved. Yes it would be nice for the newly electrified routes to receive brand new trains, but we still live in challenging financial times and this has just not been possible. The next option is receiving cascaded units from another operator, now again in an ideal world and assuming there was a long term plan, the units could be refreshed or re-engineered if necessary as long the cost of the investment could be recovered within the lifetime of the contract. Sadly for reasons we all now are aware of, by the time the wires go live there will be no long term plan because there is no long term contract. That's another issue altogether.

So what is the alternative? Leave the wires live for the occasional diversion from the WCML or accept stock that may not be perfect, but at least help to overcome the current overcrowding on services, whilst making a positive contribution to the revenue of the franchise.

As a result vital assets are not left in sidings to rot while those taxpayers endure crowded diesel trains running until heavy under utilised and expensive (the quality is not in question) OHLE. The media would have a field day, and perhaps a few heads might roll, but it still would not solve the problem.

I'm sure the vast number of passengers using Northern have no idea how old the train they board everyday is, and most probably don't care as long as it gets them to and from the destination safely, on time and that it is clean and at least up to the standard of units the "new" units are replacing.

It's not perfect, but then we don't live in a perfect world.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

But I did
Quote: Originally Posted by GRALISTAIR View Post
I understand where you are coming from. I am a northerner born and bred but educated in London. It seems that the north always loses out. However, I take a slightly different view. Lets get the bloody thing electrified and worry about the rolling stock later. Unquote

My response - Quote
I tend to agree, whatever comes north as long as it is capable of movement, gets a good internal clean then put it in to service. The vast majority of the public I suspect will not be too interested in mod cons, if they can get a seat, read their paper, or use their mobile for much of the journey. Engineering and electrical faults might keep the maintenance departments busy but they will learn and develop solutions which can then be incorporated into refurbishments. Lets gets bums on seats should be message, having spent all that taxpayers money putting up the wires. Unquote

As a UK taxpayer I welcome the electrification of the network and the huge capital outlay involved. Yes it would be nice for the newly electrified routes to receive brand new trains, but we still live in challenging financial times and this has just not been possible. The next option is receiving cascaded units from another operator, now again in an ideal world and assuming there was a long term plan, the units could be refreshed or re-engineered if necessary as long the cost of the investment could be recovered within the lifetime of the contract. Sadly for reasons we all now are aware of, by the time the wires go live there will be no long term plan because there is no long term contract. That's another issue altogether.

So what is the alternative? Leave the wires live for the occasional diversion from the WCML or accept stock that may not be perfect, but at least help to overcome the current overcrowding on services, whilst making a positive contribution to the revenue of the franchise.

As a result vital assets are not left in sidings to rot while those taxpayers endure crowded diesel trains running until heavy under utilised and expensive (the quality is not in question) OHLE. The media would have a field day, and perhaps a few heads might roll, but it still would not solve the problem.

I'm sure the vast number of passengers using Northern have no idea how old the train they board everyday is, and most probably don't care as long as it gets them to and from the destination safely, on time and that it is clean and at least up to the standard of units the "new" units are replacing.

It's not perfect, but then we don't live in a perfect world.

I think we are both singing from the same hymn sheet.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

With all due respect I did not say that nor am I trying to imply it.

Let us draw a different hypothetical transport-based comparison. Stagecoach decide that new buses would be needed for their transport operations in the north of England but are told that all of the new buses of the type they require are solely reserved for area use by operators in the south of England, but once those new buses are then supplied to those southern operations, Stagecoach can receive cascaded used bus fleets in the north of England from those southern areas.

You would say that this was totally out of order and that no-one would expect this to happen. So why would this seem acceptable, some might even say logical, in the matter of rail transportation units ?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm sure the vast number of passengers using Northern have no idea how old the train they board everyday is, and most probably don't care as long as it gets them to and from the destination safely, on time and that it is clean and at least up to the standard of units the "new" units are replacing. It's not perfect, but then we don't live in a perfect world.

After years of being weaned upon such offerings of second-rate rail transportation modes, is it any wonder why such a view as that you state should now be seen to prevail amongst the ranks of the long suffering Northern Rail passengers...

 

[Wavertreelad]

Let us draw a different hypothetical transport-based comparison. Stagecoach decide that new buses would be needed for their transport operations in the north of England but are told that all of the new buses of the type they require are solely reserved for area use by operators in the south of England, but once those new buses are then supplied to those southern operations, Stagecoach can receive cascaded used bus fleets in the north of England from those southern areas.

You would say that this was totally out of order and that no-one would expect this to happen. So why would this seem acceptable, some might even say logical, in the matter of rail transportation units ?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


After years of being weaned upon such offerings of second-rate rail transportation modes, is it any wonder why such a view as that you state should now be seen to prevail amongst the ranks of the long suffering Northern Rail passengers...

Strangely enough I was only thinking along the same lines about the buses. Taking the example in Liverpool the MPTE was forced to sell off the fleet to a private operator in 1985/1986 and eventually Merseybus was born. By the time MTL took control in 1996 the fleet in Liverpool was very old. To overcome the problem the company purchased a large number of mid-life surplus London buses as it had now expanded it's operation to the capital and elsewhere. MTL/Merseybus gave buses moved north a lick of paint an put them into service, before rebuilding most of them to single entrance vehicles. The passengers still travelled on them and the company prospered, so much that it was it was eventually bought by Arriva in 2000. Today, Arriva after investing in many new buses for Liverpool in recent years, has now reverted back to a policy of cascading 10 year old London buses to Liverpool after a coat of paint and brush up because low emission vehicles can only be used in London.

Whilst the average life of a bus in mainline public service is about 15 years, many are resold to other operators for use with on subsidised or private hire services often with a just branding changed and minimal further investment. However, the big difference between bus and rail is that the operator of the former, apart from garaging and maintenance facilities, has to make little in the way of investment to run the fleet as road network is already in place. Once the maintenance on the bus becomes too expensive, the operator can easily sell the vehicle for scrap if necessary and replace it with a newer unit. All this of this is simply with rail, simply because of the greater regulation, the lack of long term franchises and so many different operators using the same infrastructure with differing types of trains and traction.

Sadly in 2014 we live in a disposable age when we are as society used to throwing away our used or broken TV's, computers, and trading in our cars for the latest version after three years and some expect the railway to follow a similar policy. This is simply not going to happen in the present economic climate, and whilst I am sure we all agree that the next Northern franchise agreement will need to tackle this problem.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Not much to report from a Phase 2 tour today.
Masts are mostly up between Salford Central and the old Exchange site.
Signs of preparations for mast bases at Earlestown (between Sankey Viaduct and the station).
More masts Sankey Viaduct-Rainhill.
Switchgear equipment going in at Huyton Quarry.
Lineside signalling cabinets (for axle counters?) going in on the south side along most of the main line.
The new Up Fast is continuous from Huyton signal box to the site of the new junction (some of it under ballast).
No work done yet on Huyton/Roby P2 reconstruction, maybe the new P3s will be brought into service first in August, with P2s upgraded afterwards.
Nothing new that I could see on the Wigan branch.
All quiet at Edge Hill electrification depot - Easter break perhaps?

 

[DJH1971]

And the Balfour Beatty train was seen near St Helens Junction again yesterday.

 

[LDECRexile]

I did my monthly tour today, observations below.


Structures visible from trains on stated date
Mast= upright steelwork. An arch counts as two
Base= concrete ground structure on which a mast will be placed
Scrape= preliminary groundwork where a base will be built
mbs= collective term for masts, bases and scrapes

Edge Hill to Huyton 08/01/14 29/01/14 24/02/14 17/03/14 14/04/14
Edge Hill to Wavertree Tech Park
Masts 0 0 0 3 3
Bases 2 5 7 5 7
Scrapes 3 2 1 0 2
Wavertree Tech Park to Broad Green
Masts 0 0 32 34 35
Bases 21 29 3 6 9
Scrapes 0 0 0 0 0
Broad Green to Roby
Masts 0 0 15 20 22
Bases 17 21 5 7 11
Scrapes 1 3 4 9 6
Roby to Huyton
Masts 0 0 0 0 0
Bases 0 0 0 0 6
Scrapes 0 0 0 11 5
Edge Hill to Huyton Total Masts 0 0 47 57 60
Edge Hill to Huyton Total Bases 40 55 15 18 33
Edge Hill to Huyton Total Scrapes 4 5 5 20 13

Huyton to Earlestown 29/01/14 24/02/14 17/03/14 14/04/14
Huyton to Whiston
Masts 0 0 0 0
Bases 6 45 50 59
Scrapes 21 15 10 2
Whiston to Rainhill
Masts 0 0 0 0
Bases 51 63 63 63
Scrapes 6 2 2 2
Rainhill to Lea Green
Masts 0 0 11 50
Bases 78 95 85 46
Scrapes 18 3 2 2
Lea Green to St Helens Junction
Masts 0 0 29 46
Bases 53 62 34 17
Scrapes 8 1 0 0
St Helens Junction to Earlestown
Masts 0 0 20 37
Bases 80 100 93 78
Scrapes 22 3 2 10
Huyton to Earlestown Total Masts 0 0 60 133
Huyton to Earlestown Total Bases 268 365 325 263
Huyton to Earlestown Total Scrapes 75 24 16 16

Huyton to Wigan NW 08/01/14 29/01/14 24/02/14 17/03/14 14/04/14
Huyton to Prescot
Masts 58 58 60 61 61
Bases 2 3 3 19 22
Scrapes 2 1 0 0 0
Prescot to Eccleston Park
Masts 40 44 46 46 47
Bases 3 3 2 2 1
Scrapes 1 0 0 0 0
Eccleston Park to Thatto Heath
Masts 19 19 21 26 26
Bases 4 5 3 4 4
Scrapes 2 1 2 1 1
Thatto Heath to St Helens Central
Masts 51 71 75 75 76
Bases 21 7 6 6 9
Scrapes 0 1 1 1 1
St Helens Central to Garswood
Masts 116 127 137 151 161
Bases 50 42 50 52 54
Scrapes 15 16 10 4 6
Garswood to Bryn
Masts 37 46 52 52 52
Bases 10 7 2 2 4
Scrapes 6 8 10 10 10
Bryn to Wigan North Western
Masts 32 32 39 54 55
Bases 7 51 56 56 58
Scrapes 45 10 17 3 0
Huyton to Wigan NW Total Masts 353 397 430 465 478
Huyton to Wigan NW Total Bases 97 118 122 141 152
Huyton to Wigan NW Total Scrapes 71 37 40 19 18

Overall Totals 29/01/14 24/02/14 17/03/14 14/04/14
Overall Total Masts 397 477 582 671
Overall Total Bases 441 502 484 448
Overall Total Scrapes 117 69 55 47

Notes: Electrification
Edge Hill to Wavertree only new mbs shown, older masts also exist
Bryn to Wigan NW only new mbs shown, older masts also exist
Ince Moss branch bases visible
mbs in stations not shown, eg Prescot has two large "arch" masts
The rock 'canyon' N of Eccleston Pk will have side fixings, not mbs
Now ten scrapes east of Sankey viaduct, north of tracks
Lineside equipment installed (signalling?) Edge Hill-Broad Green
Work on northbound platform at Bryn
Lineside equipment installed (signalling?) Bryn-Wigan
Lineside equipment installed (signalling?) Huyton-Whiston
Base for electrical gear being laid at Huyton Quarry


Notes: Re-quadrupling Roby Jct-to-be to Huyton Jct
Third line in position from west of Roby to Huyton Stn
Extensive platform edging changes at Roby and Huyton
3rd & 4th platform edges largely in place at both Roby & Huyton
Lots of progress on lift shafts at Roby
Even more lift shaft progress at Huyton, 2 of 3 lift towers up
Foundation work in progress immediately north east of Huyton Stn
Conversation with workers, both said things progressing well
Lots of ballast tipped on 3rd trackbed between Huyton Stn & Jct
New building erected immediately west of Roby Stn bridge
Greaser at Earlestown definitely on back of flange against checkrail

 

[8A Rail]

Just uploaded four more images - https://picasaweb.google.com/104517932653927762904/LMElectrificationWorkMerseyside2014 - taken yesterday from Church Road Bridge, over looking Roby Station east and west showing current progress.

 

[DJH1971]

Just uploaded four more images - https://picasaweb.google.com/104517932653927762904/LMElectrificationWorkMerseyside2014 - taken yesterday from Church Road Bridge, over looking Roby Station east and west showing current progress.

Coming along nicely now!

 

[Wavertreelad]

A couple of quickie pictures from last Saturday taken from Mill Lane Bridge looking East and West down Olive Mount Cutting.

 

[Class 170101]

I am surprised those masts don't have a stanchion on the other side of the track as well for better support.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I am surprised those masts don't have a stanchion on the other side of the track as well for better support.

OHLE is not heavy, very easy structurally to cantilever it out if required. Which it is here. But they have to be more robust where as supports on both sides make it quite slimline. They will only do cantilever supports if cheaper (cheaper includes less possession in railways whereas it might not in other construction types)

 

[TheKnightWho]

Seems a bit short-sighted not to allow for future 4 tracking. Would have thought that would be relatively simple by just putting a beam across attached to the cutting faces.

 

[Ploughman]

Seems a bit short-sighted not to allow for future 4 tracking. Would have thought that would be relatively simple by just putting a beam across attached to the cutting faces.

Do you really mean reinstating what was there previously?
Cannot be that long since there where 4 tracks through there.

 

[mr_jrt]

Seems a bit short-sighted not to allow for future 4 tracking. Would have thought that would be relatively simple by just putting a beam across attached to the cutting faces.

No sense risking destabilising the cutting walls if you don't have to...

 

[L+Y]

Do you really mean reinstating what was there previously?
Cannot be that long since there where 4 tracks through there.

There've not been four tracks since the 1970s, I don't think.

Reinstating four tracks now would entail significant redevelopment of the M62 "entrance" at Broad Green, as well as perhaps the partial demolition of Wavertree station. I don't see it happening for a generation at least.