Manchester Metrolink master thread

[Manchester77]

Aha it's fine they're not really that similar - AC T68A motors, DC T68 motors, DDA complience on board T68As etc

It is a shame that the T68As won't be sold on but really, a microfleet of 6 trams unable to couple together. Am I right in thinking that the T69s are of a similar vintage to the T68As?

Also is it their makers (ansaldo) made a fleet (T250 or somthing?) which has been declaired unsafe or something by a national railway body as bits fell off. I know the quality of their products is a bit iffy

 

[transmanche]

Also is it their makers (ansaldo) made a fleet (T250 or somthing?) which has been declaired unsafe or something by a national railway body as bits fell off. I know the quality of their products is a bit iffy

Yes the V250, built for the Fyra high-speed service between Brussels and Amsterdam.

 

[12CSVT]

More T68s have been withdrawn and stripped for spares. M5000s still are still more reliable than T68s. Just like with any fleet replacement the new fleet won't be completely reliable, none is!! The number of delays has reduced dramatically though

Presumably in 15 to 20 years time as the M5000s get older they will probably have issues with reliability like the T68s do now ?

Everything suffers from wear and tear eventually no matter how reliable it is when new.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

T68 is sometimes used to refer to both types as they're both very similar

I did mean both T68s and T68As- should've been more clear.

Of course, the first of the old trams to be withdrawn have been sat awhile and won't be in great shape, but as other posters said, the T68As have less than 15years worth of wear and tear, and the last few to be withdrawn will presumably be runners.

In any case, it'd be nice if Beamish or the Heaton Park Tramway could get hold of one (though the high floors would mean it'd be nothing more than a static exhibit!)- they were the first 'Next Generation' trams built for a British system after all...

 

[radamfi]

How many km do M5000s do between breakdowns on average? How does that compare with tram systems in the rest of the UK/Europe?

 

[Manchester77]

The thing is the M5000s have lots of spares and are a proven design (used in Germany).

T68s and T68As are still young but you have to remember metrolink has been under funded with the trams over worked. From the turn of the century until 2007/8 there was a lot of dithering with the funding with new lines meaning that any additional funding for new trams, additional spares etc were held off.

 

[radamfi]

Could it be possible that maintenance is done differently in Manchester, leading to more breakdowns than in other places which use the same trams? They have similar trams in Croydon, albeit low floor, but they seem incredibly reliable. Maybe tram breakdowns in Croydon are not so newsworthy for some reason, so that is why I would like to see distances travelled between breakdowns.

 

[Manchester77]

Which type are you talking about?
The M5000s are 4 times more reliable as has been said.
The T68/As are quite poor really. They are very similar to heavy rail vehicles which has meant that the salt used on the roads during the winter has caused more corrosion than what would be expected of a LRV. The units never had many spares and as said have been very intensively used due to the lack of them.

Also take into consideration that midland metros ansaldo built T69 units (sisters of the T68 family) are being replaced too and it's not just due to the fact that they can't operate the new street extension, each of those trams has its own unique electrical system because they've have to be rewired. 2001 and 2006 here in Manchester were out of service for quite some time as they were rewired and yet 2006 is still on death row!

 

[radamfi]

Which type are you talking about?
The M5000s are 4 times more reliable as has been said.

I'm talking about M5000s. They may be 4 times more reliable, but the old trams are very unreliable, so 4 times as reliable may still be a lot worse than Croydon, for example.

 

[Manchester77]

The last M5000 that failed was a few days ago on the Rochdale line. Tell me the last time you saw a banana in the milgate siding because it failed in the city or in the Timperly centre siding because it failed, the last time I saw anything like this was a double T68 in Timperly a few days ago having failed on service.

 

[WatcherZero]

The 2011 reliability figures which were published in TfGM minutes use hours between service affecting failures rather than km/miles used in the heavy rail industry, T68's had around 5,000-7,500 hours between service affecting failures depending on their age and level of mid life refurb. The M5000's have 20,000 hours between service affecting failures.

 

[edwin_m]

That can be converted approximately into km per failure by assuming that each hour in service they travel around 20km. That would put the M5000s at 400,000km between failures, or about six times better than the best EMU. However they do have fewer things to go wrong - no AWS or TPWS, only eight sets of doors vice 16, etc.

Beware also that this figure may only count failures that were down to the tram itself, with other causes including vandalism, road traffic accidents etc.

 

[radamfi]

If a M5000 is 6 times more reliable than the best EMU, and a M5000 is 4 times as reliable than a T68, then a T68 is 1.5 more reliable than the best EMU. Can that be right?

 

[edwin_m]

That was one reason I was a bit doubtful about the hours per causalty figure.

 

[WatcherZero]

Trams do tend to be more intensivley used than heavy rail rolling stock and wear out faster but I think your being optimistic on their mileage per hour, considering dwell and low speed operations along with other uses its probably half what your estimating if not less.

When the operation were being provided exclusively by the T68's there was on average 2 breakdowns a week, now with their more limited use and despite the much larger number of trams in service breakdowns are roughly once, sometimes twice a month though of course there can be a run of breakdowns in a short period. Weather also playing a part with the older models having a tendency to overheat in hot weather and when operating on gritted roads get shorts in their motors from salt water while the M5000's initially had a tendency to accumulate snow behind the coupler cover.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I thought I would mention an episode at East Didsbury metrolink stop this morning as a friend drove me there so I could take my first journey from there. A double M5000 unit arrived but we were told there would be a slight delay whilst both of these units were split, but there seemed to be a difficulty in doing this.

Can I ask if there is normally a problem with the splitting of double M5000 units and if so, what is it ?

 

[edwin_m]

Trams do tend to be more intensivley used than heavy rail rolling stock and wear out faster but I think your being optimistic on their mileage per hour, considering dwell and low speed operations along with other uses its probably half what your estimating if not less.

Piccadilly Gardens to Altrincham is 26min according to the journey planner and 16.8km according to the Quail map, so the commercial speed is 38km/h including intermediate dwell times as well as travel times. To get a distance travelled per hour in service you need to add a bit for turnaround time, and routes with more street running will be slower (not on my Quail map so I can't check these), but based on this my suggestion of 20km per hour in service is in the right ball park.

 

[radamfi]

Distances for the whole network are here:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=79057

Eccles - Piccadilly 9.5 km (in 35 mins, 16.3 km/h)
Altrincham - Piccadilly 14.1 km (in 29 mins, 29.2 km/h)
East Didsbury - Victoria 12.1 km (in 31 mins, 23.4 km/h)
Rochdale - Victoria 24.2 km (in 47 mins, 30.1 km/h)
Bury - Piccadilly 17.4 km (in 31 mins, 33.7 km/h)
Ashton - Piccadilly 10.0 km (Droylsden - Piccadilly 6.3 km in 20 mins, 18.9 km/h)

 

[Manchester77]

Can I ask if there is normally a problem with the splitting of double M5000 units and if so, what is it ?

There isn't normally perhaps it was having an off day but normally they have no issue splitting at East Didsbury in service.

I know when double M5000s first started running they had issues with trams being equipped with different types of signalling systems. So I think 3005 + 3031 failed because 3005 the has the german factory fitted ATS equipment whereas 3031 has ATS equipment from T68s. This resulted in failures. However this has been rectified and is no longer an issue.

 

[edwin_m]

Distances for the whole network are here:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=79057

Eccles - Piccadilly 9.5 km (in 35 mins, 16.3 km/h)
Altrincham - Piccadilly 14.1 km (in 29 mins, 29.2 km/h)
East Didsbury - Victoria 12.1 km (in 31 mins, 23.4 km/h)
Rochdale - Victoria 24.2 km (in 47 mins, 30.1 km/h)
Bury - Piccadilly 17.4 km (in 31 mins, 33.7 km/h)
Ashton - Piccadilly 10.0 km (Droylsden - Piccadilly 6.3 km in 20 mins, 18.9 km/h)

Thanks for these - 20km/h average still looks about right. Going back to the reliability figures an hour of heavy rail time will usually be a greater distance travelled than an hour of tram time, which is another reason for the disparity in reliability figures per distance travelled. (at least I think it's that way round!)

 

[notadriver]

Can anyone tell me which is faster! Rochdale to Manchester (Victoria) all stations by train or the Tram?

 

[radamfi]

Can anyone tell me which is faster! Rochdale to Manchester (Victoria) all stations by train or the Tram?

The all stations train service is much quicker, about 21 vs 46 mins timetabled (although in my experience the tram usually takes about 40 mins, although that will probably be more like 46 when the Oldham town centre line opens).

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The all stations train service is much quicker, about 21 vs 46 mins timetabled (although in my experience the tram usually takes about 40 mins, although that will probably be more like 46 when the Oldham town centre line opens).

That heavy-rail journey you describe (via Moston) was obviously quicker even in the days when the Oldham Loop Line heavy rail route (now the Manchester Metrolink route) was open, for passengers wishing to travel direct from Rochdale to Manchester, but the Oldham Loop line was built to give rail connections from either Manchester Victoria or from Rochdale to all the settlements via Oldham that required a rail service, not to give a competing time related journey from Rochdale to Manchester.

 

[familyguy99]

Here some picture in Rochdale that I took this afternoon for the Rochdale Town Centre line.


Metrolink line on Maclure Road (Rochdale)

I wonder how many people will still drive they car onto line here knowing the put this down?


Tram Only sign on Maclure Road (Rochdale)


Metrolink line for Rochdale 3B line

Drake Street is lot better with fences have been took away now and road is fully open after two years of closed.


Metrolink line running on Drake Street (Rochdale)


Metrolink line running on Drake Street (Rochdale) 3

I bet you still got people driving down Drake Street knowing they put this down on road.


Tram Only sign on road on Drake Street

Rochdale Town Centre stop


Metrolink totems at Rochdale Town Centre stop


Rochdale Town Centre stop

Metrolink tram racing Class 144016 Northern Rail train at Rochdale.


Class 144016 Northernrail train

For past three maybe four months trams on Oldham/Rochdale line have been terminate at Central Park due to roof work at Victoria stop.


Metrolink 3034 tram

 

[edwin_m]

Thanks for these photos familyguy.

You'd be surprised how many people manage to drive along tram only roads including continuing onto sections where the rails are no longer flush with the surface and the car drops into the gap. Those yellow bollards have appeared all over the network following several such incidents. Sometimes I think a sight test is no longer necessary for driving!

 

[Manchester77]

Looking at recent pictures of the Ashton stretch of the EML there's large parts of the road painted a strong red and as you say lots of those yellow bollards to try and stop people driving on the track.

At the Eccles underpass there is a no entry sign as well as the standard tram only signage perhaps these could be used at the EML underpass under Great Ancotes Street and other places?

 

[radamfi]

That heavy-rail journey you describe (via Moston) was obviously quicker even in the days when the Oldham Loop Line heavy rail route (now the Manchester Metrolink route) was open, for passengers wishing to travel direct from Rochdale to Manchester, but the Oldham Loop line was built to give rail connections from either Manchester Victoria or from Rochdale to all the settlements via Oldham that required a rail service, not to give a competing time related journey from Rochdale to Manchester.

It was sometimes quicker to get the next train via Oldham than to wait for the next direct train when the Rochdale via Oldham train used to run non-stop between Oldham Mumps and Victoria and not stop at Derker.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It was sometimes quicker to get the next train via Oldham than to wait for the next direct train when the Rochdale via Oldham train used to run non-stop between Oldham Mumps and Victoria and not stop at Derker.

Not all services from Oldham Mumps, by any means, used to miss out Oldham Werneth, Hollinwood, Failsworth and Dean Lane.

How often did these non-stop Oldham Mumps to Manchester Victoria services run ?

 

[radamfi]

Not all services from Oldham Mumps, by any means, used to miss out Oldham Werneth, Hollinwood, Failsworth and Dean Lane.

How often did these non-stop Oldham Mumps to Manchester Victoria services run ?

Off-peak, the service pattern was every half hour Victoria non-stop to Oldham then Shaw, Newhey, Milnrow then Rochdale, and every half hour all stops between Victoria and Shaw. So in the off-peak, all trains from Rochdale to Victoria via Oldham went non-stop from Oldham Mumps. You had to change at Oldham Mumps for intermediate stations.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Were there not services at one time which ran Wigan Wallgate-Manchester Victoria- Rochdale- Oldham Mumps - Manchester Victoria that terminated in the bay platforms there ?