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Manea Fail to Call?

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Juniper Driver

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Of course it doesn't. Not sure why it was brought up in a 'fail to call' discussion? Suppose many people don't understand railway operations.

I can actually understand how people see it different to when you are actually doing the job and realise how easy an error it is to make of missing a station.No driver I have ever talked to has been proud of this "achievement".I think they probably do their best to ensure it doesn't happen again.

Of course action plans and grief with your manager comes into play.;)
 
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dk1

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I can actually understand how people see it different to when you are actually doing the job and realise how easy an error it is to make of missing a station.No driver I have ever talked to has been proud of this "achievement".I think they probably do their best to ensure it doesn't happen again.

At the end of the day it can be your career at stake should a driver already have a poor record. Nobody wants to have such incidents but we are only human & have some erratic stopping patterns. Also as I said earlier, driving trains can be very mundane & boring.
 

Trainfan344

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That was a different matter where (allegedly) it spadded 2 signals?

Of course it doesn't. Not sure why it was brought up in a 'fail to call' discussion? Suppose many people don't understand railway operations.


The post I quoted stated "probably one of the most serious things that can happen" I thought this would be more serious, that was the reason I brought it up...
 

Darandio

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haha without flashing yellow's? 125mph points - show me where..certainly not near Manea..

Well, there's Colton Jcn of course, but not really relevant to the discussion. :)

Saying that, there was no relevance from the poster you quoted as well, it was just astonishing. :shock:
 

Juniper Driver

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The post I quoted stated "probably one of the most serious things that can happen" I thought this would be more serious, that was the reason I brought it up...

I wasn't questioning it.Sorry for any offence caused.;)

At the end of the day it can be your career at stake should a driver already have a poor record. Nobody wants to have such incidents but we are only human & have some erratic stopping patterns. Also as I said earlier, driving trains can be very mundane & boring.

How very true.Even if you have a good record it gets you noticed.
 
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devinier

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I am utterly astounded to see what I presume are qualified railway workers saying there is no safety risk from a train failing to call at a station. As I have said on previous threads, whilst I am not a train driver, I am however in safety-critical railway employment... and consider this to be a quite inexcusable point of view.

As above, passengers should not need to expect a train which is advertised and booked to stop at a station to come flying through at whatever speed beyond that which it would normally enter the platform when stopping. Just because passengers "should" stand behind the yellow line (where there is one - see also major stations such as East Croydon as one example) does not mean they always will - indeed, we are all human and we certainly are not blessed with the ability to randomly work out whether a train driver has forgotten to stop today.


Passengers cant be expected to randomly work out whether a train is stopping, or the driver has forgotten to call, hence they should stand in a safe position on the platform. What about an empty stock train, freight, network rail or other working which may pass through. If I approach a station I sound the horn if I perceive passengers are too close to the edge, whether I'm stopping or "flying through".

As A-driver has said it isn't a safety issue as the driver would be driving at line speed obeying signals.

I am a relatively new driver and can see how easily that a fail to call can happen. I personally have adopted a couple of techniques from experienced drivers to try and prevent this happening to me.
 
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Juniper Driver

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I can understand where tsr is coming from and hitting a station at warp speed is not so good when you are booked to call there and also could be dodgy for the unaware.
 
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Scott M

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haha without flashing yellow's? 125mph points - show me where..certainly not near Manea..

I meant points that you would go across at say 40mph, but if you weren't expecting to go across them (e.g. if you didn't realise you were calling at a station and so weren't expecting to leave the mainline), you'd go across them at 125mph and end up derailing.

Couldn't Dunbar be a potential example of this? IIRC.

But it's apparently a load of rubbish anyway as I gather from other posters that if you were going to cross a set of points with a much lower speed limit than the line speed, you'd get caution signals which would force you to slow down. :p

That really is an outsiders view mate & im not being rude. I take it you have no knowledge of signalling at all?

No offence taken mate. My signalling knowledge is limited to green/double amber/amber/red, and a white 'arrow' if you're gonna turn off the line. :p
 

A-driver

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I am utterly astounded to see what I presume are qualified railway workers saying there is no safety risk from a train failing to call at a station. As I have said on previous threads, whilst I am not a train driver, I am however in safety-critical railway employment... and consider this to be a quite inexcusable point of view.

As above, passengers should not need to expect a train which is advertised and booked to stop at a station to come flying through at whatever speed beyond that which it would normally enter the platform when stopping. Just because passengers "should" stand behind the yellow line (where there is one - see also major stations such as East Croydon as one example) does not mean they always will - indeed, we are all human and we certainly are not blessed with the ability to randomly work out whether a train driver has forgotten to stop today.

And how about those people onboard the train? You approach a station, getting ready to alight, and it doesn't slow down and zooms past the platform. "How weird" you or I on this forum might think. But "Oh [insert choice of swear word]" is what a 'normal' might think, and pull the green handle. Or the red one. Or any of the ones which jams on the brakes and possibly opens the doors. People do not take kindly to missing their stops when they have made the effort to get off, and rather more worryingly, they do not find it amusing when they think their driver is incompetent or unconscious - even if they are not, and they are just not educated on the intricacies of the railways. Not to say that the Manea situation wasn't mitigated (maybe by an immediate announcement) but some such situations may not be.

As railway professionals we must consider the reason we run the railway, which is for the customer (passenger or freight) and not our own convenience and amusement, and thus it is very serious if one of the passengers on what would otherwise be our very own train set come within inches of a train flying through a station where it could otherwise be reasonably expected to call. And for that matter, I (and my employers) also regard PIS errors to be extremely serious and a reportable matter where they do not indicate non-stop trains.

I know it is hard to concentrate at all times - I have been up at 0315 examining the line for people's electrocuted bodies, crossed virtually unlit third rail track in the pouring rain, dispatched trains during thick snowfall, you name it - the distractions are all there, and we can succumb at any point, but that does not mean that making some sort of mental error should not be examined and double-checked in case it could be prevented again. If it can't be, than fair enough. Someone who has marginally slipped up against an excellent safety record may just need to be regarded as having had "one of those days" and maybe there should be no disciplinary action. On the other hand, I have it on good authority that drivers have been fired due to trying to blag their way out of failing to call somewhere. There are massive differences per situation and unusual calling patterns can influence bad behaviour unwittingly, so I'm sure there could be a perfectly reasonable explanation for the Manea incident. But that does not mean it was safe.



Fortunately that particular point is very much an outsider's point of view. If the points had that severe a restriction over them, either speed limits or the signalling system (or other local instructions) would check down the speed of the train. (As above!)


Well I can only disagree with what you say. I'm not going to repeat myself but I stand by all my previous posts.

As for things like pulling egress handles etc-I would say that I don't know of any safety incidents which have occurred due to a fail to call-I don't know of any passengers who have fallen out of a 100mph train which flew through their station now anyone coming close to being hit on the platform and FTCs are far from rare so I can't really agree with those points you made.

As I say, FTCs are not something considered dangerous in the industry and few TOCs count them as safety issues.
 

A-driver

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I meant points that you would go across at say 40mph, but if you weren't expecting to go across them (e.g. if you didn't realise you were calling at a station and so weren't expecting to leave the mainline), you'd go across them at 125mph and end up derailing.



Couldn't Dunbar be a potential example of this? IIRC.



But it's apparently a load of rubbish anyway as I gather from other posters that if you were going to cross a set of points with a much lower speed limit than the line speed, you'd get caution signals which would force you to slow down. :p







No offence taken mate. My signalling knowledge is limited to green/double amber/amber/red, and a white 'arrow' if you're gonna turn off the line. :p


Points are to do with signalling, not station stops. If you are approaching a low speed set of points on a higher speed line the signalling checks you down and warns you that you are being routed over points (probably making a FTC less likely anyway). So speeding over the points would be nothing to do with a FTC. Take somewhere like peterborough or Doncaster-there is nothing stopping a fast non stop train from being run through the platforms. The driver would perhaps expect to keep going on the 100mph+ through road but could still be routed over 30mph points. The signalling system would slow him down and indicate he is running over points.
 

Scott M

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Well I can only disagree with what you say. I'm not going to repeat myself but I stand by all my previous posts.

As for things like pulling egress handles etc-I would say that I don't know of any safety incidents which have occurred due to a fail to call-I don't know of any passengers who have fallen out of a 100mph train which flew through their station now anyone coming close to being hit on the platform and FTCs are far from rare so I can't really agree with those points you made.

As I say, FTCs are not something considered dangerous in the industry and few TOCs count them as safety issues.

I would have thought a railway worker would appreciate the danger of a train whizzing through a station at 50+ mph with a line of passengers close to the yellow line due to expecting it to stop.

I bet you'd get mad if a train spotter was standing right up at the yellow line when you were flying through a station you're not scheduled to stop at? The safety-based reason you'd be angry at them for is the exact same safety risk that you're happily ridiculing right now. :p

Also just because an accident hasn't occurred because of a certain reason before, doesn't mean it is ok to asssume it won't in the future. You know what they say about 'assume'...
 

A-driver

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I would have thought a railway worker would appreciate the danger of a train whizzing through a station at 50+ mph with a line of passengers close to the yellow line due to expecting it to stop.

I bet you'd get mad if a train spotter was standing right up at the yellow line when you were flying through a station you're not scheduled to stop at? The safety-based reason you'd be angry at them for is the exact same safety risk that you're happily ridiculing right now. :p

Also just because an accident hasn't occurred because of a certain reason before, doesn't mean it is ok to asssume it won't in the future. You know what they say about 'assume'...


But as long as people stand behind the yellow line there is no danger. Even if they stand in front of the line before a train has stopped they are putting themselves in danger potentionally.
 

Scott M

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But as long as people stand behind the yellow line there is no danger. Even if they stand in front of the line before a train has stopped they are putting themselves in danger potentionally.

So you'd be completely comfortable with a line of train spotters standing on the yellow line as you went through a station at full speed? I mean fair enough if you would be, but I'd think it's a bit too close.
 

scott118

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So you'd be completely comfortable with a line of train spotters standing on the yellow line as you went through a station at full speed? I mean fair enough if you would be, but I'd think it's a bit too close.

stand back from the yellow line then chap...
 

A-driver

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So you'd be completely comfortable with a line of train spotters standing on the yellow line as you went through a station at full speed? I mean fair enough if you would be, but I'd think it's a bit too close.


Why is it too close? The yellow line is a safe distance from passing trains. I'd happily stand by the yellow line (not over it) with a 125mph train passing through. The entire point of the line is that it's a safe distance and spotters almost always stand as close to the line as possible-I have no issue with that as long as they don't cross it.
 

Scott M

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stand back from the yellow line then chap...

I'd stand up against the railings mate if I knew something was passing at 50+ mph :') Naturally a worrier!

Edit: also thanks for the signalling link. :)

Why is it too close? The yellow line is a safe distance from passing trains. I'd happily stand by the yellow line (not over it) with a 125mph train passing through. The entire point of the line is that it's a safe distance and spotters almost always stand as close to the line as possible-I have no issue with that as long as they don't cross it.

Fair enough I see where you're coming from. Wouldn't shock me if some people stand in front of the line if they're expecting a train to stop though. :p
 

Juniper Driver

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I'd stand up against the railings mate if I knew something was passing at 50+ mph :') Naturally a worrier!

Edit: also thanks for the signalling link. :)



Fair enough I see where you're coming from. Wouldn't shock me if some people stand in front of the line if they're expecting a train to stop though. :p

I did the same,even when catching the tube as a kid.I'd stand right by the wall away from the platform.I never ever ever stood too near if I could help it.

But alas people seem unaware of the dangers which probably makes tsr's post a valid point.
 

David Goddard

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http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/P36337/2015/05/18/advanced

RTT shows the train leaving Ely 1¾ late, so this delay may have preoccupied the driver's mind. Missing Manea certainly didn't help make up any time as it was 3 late at March and this continued to rise through to Leicester.
Based on the last week's worth of data it appears that this train is always delayed (granted only by one to two minutes) on leaving Ely.
I suppose it was fortunate that there was another train at 1911 but for the passenger on the platform is little consolation, particularly if they have a connection elsewhere such as the last bus home. Also lucky that this was not in the middle of winter when the cold wind blows across the fens as raw as it does in the pennines.
 

devinier

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I did the same,even when catching the tube as a kid.I'd stand right by the wall away from the platform.I never ever ever stood too near if I could help it.

But alas people seem unaware of the dangers which probably makes tsr's post a valid point.

In that case a major review of how trains pass through stations is required. Fail to call is either a safety of the line matter or it isn't (currently it isn't), it can't be a grey area...
 

Crossover

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From the limited calling pattern of XC at the station, my feeling is the driver had overlooked it for one reason or another - probably saw starmill on the platform and had an "oh ****" moment. A

So a driver who remembers at the last minute is better off carrying on than trying to stop (assuming green signals, etc etc)?

I understand how it happens- I've driven a car perfectly safely on "autopilot" and ended up driving towards work rather than Tesco- so I have sympathy with it.

Likewise!
 

A-driver

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In that case a major review of how trains pass through stations is required. Fail to call is either a safety of the line matter or it isn't (currently it isn't), it can't be a grey area...


It isn't a grey area-it just isn't a safety issue. Inconvenient yes but dangerous? No.

Some people may choose to stand well away from the yellow line and that's fair enough on them. But the yellow lines are a safe distance away from the edge relating to line speed. So a fail to call is not a danger due to that.

Plus there are loads of occasions where trains run fast through crowded platforms with no warning-a peak train being cancelled due to a fault and run empty through stations to clear the line, a late running fast train passing through when a stopper is due, diverted train etc-and in my experience it's not that common for station info boards to advertise fast trains any more.

Every morning fast trains run through winchmore hill at 70mph. They run through the very narrow and incredibly crowded up platform minutes ahead of the stopper. But no one gets hit by the train and a fail to call would be no more dangerous considering the platform boards rarely advertise the fast trains.
 

devinier

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It isn't a grey area-it just isn't a safety issue. Inconvenient yes but dangerous? No.

Some people may choose to stand well away from the yellow line and that's fair enough on them. But the yellow lines are a safe distance away from the edge relating to line speed. So a fail to call is not a danger due to that.

Plus there are loads of occasions where trains run fast through crowded platforms with no warning-a peak train being cancelled due to a fault and run empty through stations to clear the line, a late running fast train passing through when a stopper is due, diverted train etc-and in my experience it's not that common for station info boards to advertise fast trains any more.

Every morning fast trains run through winchmore hill at 70mph. They run through the very narrow and incredibly crowded up platform minutes ahead of the stopper. But no one gets hit by the train and a fail to call would be no more dangerous considering the platform boards rarely advertise the fast trains.

I agree with you, what I'm saying is that if tsr has a point that it is a safety issue, then all trains passing through stations would be dangerous.
 
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Philip C

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It isn't a grey area-it just isn't a safety issue. Inconvenient yes but dangerous? No.

Some people may choose to stand well away from the yellow line and that's fair enough on them. But the yellow lines are a safe distance away from the edge relating to line speed. So a fail to call is not a danger due to that.

Plus there are loads of occasions where trains run fast through crowded platforms with no warning-a peak train being cancelled due to a fault and run empty through stations to clear the line, a late running fast train passing through when a stopper is due, diverted train etc-and in my experience it's not that common for station info boards to advertise fast trains any more.

Every morning fast trains run through winchmore hill at 70mph. They run through the very narrow and incredibly crowded up platform minutes ahead of the stopper. But no one gets hit by the train and a fail to call would be no more dangerous considering the platform boards rarely advertise the fast trains.

Why are we so keen on allowing our driver a human error and so keen to deny the same to the passenger?

I don't like the idea that ultimately we may deny the right of access to platforms except when the next calling train is imminent. Something similar seemed to apply in Belgium, or was it France?, in the 1970s. Does it still?

I wouldn't like to argue a TOC's case, in court, when one of its trains had hit a child and the train had been expected to stop but hadn't. The notion of contributory negligence might well apply. The likelihood that the Passenger Information System would be explicitly identifying the train as a stopping one really wouldn't help.

I just cannot see how the next of kin, the judge or the jury would regard your view that there is "absolutely no danger arising from it...."
 

MCR247

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I wouldn't like to argue a TOC's case, in court, when one of its trains had hit a child and the train had been expected to stop but hadn't. The notion of contributory negligence might well apply. The likelihood that the Passenger Information System would be explicitly identifying the train as a stopping one really wouldn't help.

I just cannot see how the next of kin, the judge or the jury would regard your view that there is "absolutely no danger arising from it...."

Would it make a difference if the train hadn't been expected to stop? The boards might still have shown the stopping service, but the delayed express was given priority.
 

dk1

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How pathetic We are today. We need to be told to "stand back from the platform edge, through train approaching" Just stand back anyway!! How people get by in life without holding Mummy's hand fails me.
 

Philip C

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Would it make a difference if the train hadn't been expected to stop? The boards might still have shown the stopping service, but the delayed express was given priority.

If you look at posting #41 you will see that the poster was referring to a "Failure To Call" instance. My contention that the courts might well find the TOC at least partially at fault referred to that situation.

I'm happy to let others dissect other circumstances.
 

A-driver

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Why are we so keen on allowing our driver a human error and so keen to deny the same to the passenger?



I don't like the idea that ultimately we may deny the right of access to platforms except when the next calling train is imminent. Something similar seemed to apply in Belgium, or was it France?, in the 1970s. Does it still?



I wouldn't like to argue a TOC's case, in court, when one of its trains had hit a child and the train had been expected to stop but hadn't. The notion of contributory negligence might well apply. The likelihood that the Passenger Information System would be explicitly identifying the train as a stopping one really wouldn't help.



I just cannot see how the next of kin, the judge or the jury would regard your view that there is "absolutely no danger arising from it...."


Once again, a load of nonsense in afraid. I don't no of any cases of near misses or people bring hit because they thought a train was stopping but it didn't.

As for all the last not, the disclaimer is the yellow line. Stand the wrong side of it and the railway has no responsibility of you are injured or worse.

I can't believe the vivid imaginations of people on here-never have I herd anyone within the industry suggest a FTC is a safety issue yet we have people trying to argue otherwise with little clue what they Are on about!
 

MCR247

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If you look at posting #41 you will see that the poster was referring to a "Failure To Call" instance. My contention that the courts might well find the TOC at least partially at fault referred to that situation.

I'm happy to let others dissect other circumstances.

But surely if they found them partially at fault in that case then the TOC would be (equally) partially at fault if the passenger was hit by a train that wasn't meant to stop? I don't see how the fact that the train failed to call makes any difference in that situation, hence my previous post.

I think devinier was making the same point.
 
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