May 2020 timetable changes

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If the ECML to Kent TL services don't happen soon as bramling says a different type of train should be used to replace 700 kx terminator work

The 700s are actually very good trains in many ways but their poor seating makes long distance use wrong

Coffee shop now at pancras low level at least !
 
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Ianno87

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If the ECML to Kent TL services don't happen soon as bramling says a different type of train should be used to replace 700 kx terminator work

The 700s are actually very good trains in many ways but their poor seating makes long distance use wrong

Coffee shop now at pancras low level at least !
Nobody really uses the 2Cxx trains long distance (other than lost Cambridge tourists). Demand wise, they're really a KX-Stevenage and Stevenage-Cambs local joined together for operational convenience.
 

bramling

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Nobody really uses the 2Cxx trains long distance (other than lost Cambridge tourists). Demand wise, they're really a KX-Stevenage and Stevenage-Cambs local joined together for operational convenience.
I’ve heard of a few people who will use them for journeys like Baldock, Letchworth or Hitchin to London to assure themselves of their preferred seat in declassified first.

In 365 days plenty of people used to take them as the first service to London such that they would always arrive at Hitchin modestly filled. With 2tph Cambridge to Brighton now I presume this is less prevalent nowadays.

My point about shifting 700s away from this service is more about making better use of the 700’s capacity though. This route is nowhere near crush loaded, and 700s could be more beneficially deployed elsewhere if through running doesn’t happen. It would need 16x 387 or 365, and in the case of the latter further platform extension work.

Incidentally, I've had time to expand on my earlier post regarding GN changes. I've copied and pasted below:

MONDAYS TO FRIDAYS

1) Minor retimings across the board, with Cambridge stopping service now departing KX at XX22 and XX52.

2) All the AM peak up Baldock to KX 365 services now call at Finsbury Park (I do wonder what if any operational logic there is to this, as one nice feature of the current timetable is pretty much everything through Finsbury Park platform 4 is non-stop, which must make life a lot easier for the signallers).

3) 1P07 0704 Peterborough to KX changes from 3x365 to 3x387.

4) 1P09 0714 Peterborough to KX changes from 3x387 to 3x365.

5) For those into rare track, 2x morning peak up services no longer cross over at Cadwell, however 1x evening service is now booked to do so (1P53 1942 Peterborough to KX).

6) The single morning Brighton/Royston and return service will run through to Cambridge.

7) 2C17 0827 Cambridge to KX omits Ashwell & Morden and Baldock. This is presumably to do with extending the Royston TL service to/from Cambridge.

8) 0942 KX to Ely increases from 8 to 12 carriages whilst 1012 KX to KX decreases from 12 to 8 carriages.

9) 2Y09 0602 Welwyn Garden City to KX changes from 700/0 to 1x717.

10) King’s Cross platform 0 seems to be out of commission, which has led to quite a bit of re-platforming at KX. This has led to some tighter turnrounds particularly for services which arrive or depart empty at King’s Cross before or after their respective service. Hopefully this may ease in the future.

11) 1R58 1957 KX to Baldock changes to 1954 in accordance with all the other XX54 and XX24 Baldock services, and calls additionally at Welwyn North as does the 2054.

12) 1R66 2154 KX to Letchworth calls additionally at Welwyn North, and is extended to Baldock.

13) 2R33 1256 Letchworth to KX now runs 4 minutes later as far as Knebworth with stand time at Stevenage removed (why this service ever ran like this is a mystery as it has always tended to leave Letchworth late by the looks of it, apparently being too close behind the Brighton service to get out of the sidings in time).

14) A new 1P80 0736 KX to Peterborough service formed of 2x365, which is a former ECS service converted to passenger, and calling at St Neots, Huntington and Peterborough only (however don't expect a sparkling run as it is booked on the down slow north of Woolmer Green!).

15) A new 2Y12 0936 KX to Welwyn Garden City service formed of a 700/0.

16) 2Y98 0140 KX to Welwyn Garden City changes from 700/0 to 1x717.

17) The various minor changes to routings and timings of the 2Cxx services in the evening made to accommodate the Moorgate services being diverted to KX are undone.

SATURDAYS

1) Cambridge to Brighton goes half-hourly through most of the day, as far as I can tell this is exclusively formed of 700/1, associated with this is a new 1C04 0603 KX to Cambridge.

2) 1C76 0032 KX to Cambridge runs 1 minute later and changes from 1x387 to 700/0.

3) 2R72 0024 KX to Letchworth changes from 700/0 to 2x387.

SUNDAYS

1) The hourly Cambridge - Gatwick Airport service is extended to Brighton except for one trip at the start and end of service.

2) 2R42 1632 KX to Letchworth changes from 700/0 to 1x387, and 2R46 1732 KX to Letchworth changes from 1x387 to 700/0.

The outstanding elements compared with the ill-fated May 2018 timetable are thus:
1) Weekend KX-Cambridge stopping service to extend to 2tph between Royston and Cambridge (is this still the plan or has this been permanently changed to 1tph reversing at Royston?).
2) Horsham-London Bridge and KX-Peterborough to be joined on Sundays.
 
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RealTrains07

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LM timetable now appears to be uploaded. Rugeley Town etc lose their unreliable London service via Birmingham.
Stone has also lost its unreliable london service as well with its hourly service going to Birmingham international instead

coventry has also gained what looks like a daily service to bromsgrove of all places :lol:


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LNR is unfortunately going back on itself with reinstalling 1 train per hour between Birmingham and london and back reversing why they changed the timetable in the first place in 2019
 
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Class 466

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Stone has also lost its unreliable london service as well with its hourly service going to Birmingham international instead

coventry has also gained what looks like a daily service to bromsgrove of all places :lol:

LNR is unfortunately going back on itself with reinstalling 2 trains per hour between Birmingham and london and back reversing why they changed the timetable in the first place in 2019
As you say, replaced by a Birmingham Int’l service which has a whopping 5 minute turnaround at International. What a way to improve reliability :D
 

Staffordian

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As you say, replaced by a Birmingham Int’l service which has a whopping 5 minute turnaround at International. What a way to improve reliability :D
These trains also wait 13 mins at New Street s/b and 7 mins n/b, which hopefully will provide enough resilience. However, rather annoying for through passengers to International from north of New Street !
 

RealTrains07

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These trains also wait 13 mins at New Street s/b and 7 mins n/b, which hopefully will provide enough resilience. However, rather annoying for through passengers to International from north of New Street !
Indeed, some commuters are not gonna be happy for sure
As you say, replaced by a Birmingham Int’l service which has a whopping 5 minute turnaround at International. What a way to improve reliability :D
Guess we will have to wait and see what arises in the confirmed timetable :lol:
 

RealTrains07

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Make sure you keep checking RTT over the next couple weeks and months as the information they have for the timetable plans does update quickly as I have discovered
 

BucksBones

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LNR is unfortunately going back on itself with reinstalling 1 train per hour between Birmingham and london and back reversing why they changed the timetable in the first place in 2019
Unfortunately??

As was widely predicted on this forum the May 2019 timetable change was a total, abject failure; a balls-up of the highest magnitude, as any regular user of LNR will testify.

Anyway I can see 3 Birmingham trains an hour off peak from May; a New St terminator and 2 Liverpools with long layovers at New Street (essentially 2 separate services).
 

BucksBones

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These trains also wait 13 mins at New Street s/b and 7 mins n/b, which hopefully will provide enough resilience. However, rather annoying for through passengers to International from north of New Street !
I'm sure people north of New Street faced with the choice of a short wait to get to International or to continue to suffer the appalling service they have had since May last year would choose the former.
 

RealTrains07

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Unfortunately??

As was widely predicted on this forum the May 2019 timetable change was a total, abject failure; a balls-up of the highest magnitude, as any regular user of LNR will testify.

Anyway I can see 3 Birmingham trains an hour off peak from May; a New St terminator and 2 Liverpools with long layovers at New Street (essentially 2 separate services).
Liverpool trains apart from their disastrous reliability are not an issue as they will continue to travel through new street post may. Having an extra train terminating at new street after may however just wastes platform space which is why the through were introduced last year in the first place. To free up space at new street.
 

BucksBones

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Liverpool trains apart from their disastrous reliability are not an issue as they will continue to travel through new street post may. Having an extra train terminating at new street after may however just wastes platform space which is why the through were introduced last year in the first place. To free up space at new street.
Right, I see what you mean now. Well it needs fixing so if that's the way to do it then surely it's a good thing?
 

Aictos

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Liverpool trains apart from their disastrous reliability are not an issue as they will continue to travel through new street post may. Having an extra train terminating at new street after may however just wastes platform space which is why the through were introduced last year in the first place. To free up space at new street.
Probably a good reason why but why weren’t the Liverpool’s extended to International as there’s 5 platforms IIRC?
 

jfollows

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Liverpool trains apart from their disastrous reliability are not an issue as they will continue to travel through new street post may. Having an extra train terminating at new street after may however just wastes platform space which is why the through were introduced last year in the first place. To free up space at new street.
OK, I know what you mean, but I don't consider the use of a platform by a terminating train as a "waste" of platform space. The Liverpool services were better than other services because they terminated at Birmingham New Street; for the most part they used the newly-built platform 4C and it was a relative pleasure to be able to stroll there, get on the train when it arrived from Liverpool, get settled and be ready to leave. Now it looks like the usual faff of hanging around on a through platform, hoping that the train won't be re-platformed at the last minute (I suspect that happens a lot) and having to rush to it at the last minute. Nothing wasteful about what used to be done.
 

BucksBones

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OK, I know what you mean, but I don't consider the use of a platform by a terminating train as a "waste" of platform space. The Liverpool services were better than other services because they terminated at Birmingham New Street; for the most part they used the newly-built platform 4C and it was a relative pleasure to be able to stroll there, get on the train when it arrived from Liverpool, get settled and be ready to leave. Now it looks like the usual faff of hanging around on a through platform, hoping that the train won't be re-platformed at the last minute (I suspect that happens a lot) and having to rush to it at the last minute. Nothing wasteful about what used to be done.
Well they are timetabled to wait at New St for 18 mins* so shouldn't be much different if running on time.


* Not that much less than the terminating trains!
 

MikeWM

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The outstanding elements compared with the ill-fated May 2018 timetable are thus:
1) Weekend KX-Cambridge stopping service to extend to 2tph between Royston and Cambridge (is this still the plan or has this been permanently changed to 1tph reversing at Royston?).
Don't know, but I suspect it isn't especially vital to extend it to Cambridge once we have the second semi-fast running, as that fixes the stupid situation whereby the northbound semi-fast and stopper run a few minutes apart, leaving almost an hour gap between services - which caught me out in November when trying to connect off a slightly-late-running LNER at Stevenage. We need the semi-fast or the stopper, but having both doesn't seem essential.

(Of course that assumes that the hourly stopper that does go to Cambridge does run, else Foxton etc. are cut off. They weren't exactly reliable in the run-up to Christmas, with frequent multiple successive cancellations.)
 

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Will the southern Sunday service from bognor and Portsmouth to Victoria still call at coulsdon south and redhill ?
 

Minstral25

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Will the southern Sunday service from bognor and Portsmouth to Victoria still call at coulsdon south and redhill ?
Of course it will - as it makes the half hourly Victoria service from these very busy stations. Really should call at Merstham and Purley too!

Reason is that Reigate to Victoria service reduced to hourly on Sundays
 

OliverH68

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Of course it will - as it makes the half hourly Victoria service from these very busy stations. Really should call at Merstham and Purley too!

Reason is that Reigate to Victoria service reduced to hourly on Sundays
Second this. Really need a faster London service on Sundays to Victoria from Purley.
 

Minstral25

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Second this. Really need a faster London service on Sundays to Victoria from Purley.
Yes, would be a good idea for all those along the Arun Valley route who want the Redhill calls stopped to lobby for the Reigate service to be half-hourly on a Sunday like the rest of the week.
 

GoatSarah

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1) The hourly Cambridge - Gatwick Airport service is extended to Brighton except for one trip at the start and end of service.
Thank goodness for that. I do BTN-CBG a lot on Sundays and having to take a Bedford service, overtake the Cambridge service in the quarry, then pick it up at London Bridge is irritating.
 

gingerheid

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Truly remarkable that having supposedly been on track for the May 18 timetable and more in October 2017, GTR still (because of the Network Rail delays ofc? :rolleyes:) can't manage the watered down May 18 timetable two years later. They absolutely got off with murder there.
 

Minstral25

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Thank goodness for that. I do BTN-CBG a lot on Sundays and having to take a Bedford service, overtake the Cambridge service in the quarry, then pick it up at London Bridge is irritating.
But quite annoying at Redhill as the call has been culled, reducing service and making the timetable lopsided.

Additionally some stations along Redhill Route have service cut from Half hourly to hourly on Sundays too due to other changes.
 

GoatSarah

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But quite annoying at Redhill as the call has been culled, reducing service and making the timetable lopsided.

Additionally some stations along Redhill Route have service cut from Half hourly to hourly on Sundays too due to other changes.
Ah, they’re going through the quarry like the other CBG services? Yeah, I can see how that might irritate. I wouldn’t mind a slightly slower service that still called at Redhill etc if it’s saving me the London Bridge change. I’m comfy in rear first with my thermos and laptop.
 

SE%Traveller

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I suspect things will go one or two ways. Either Welwyn to Sevenoaks peaks only happens (at some point) and that’s the end of it, or both are dropped and instead things are recast to do an all-day Cambridge to Sevenoaks service.

The KX turnaround issue could be eased by reworking the timings slightly so the Cambridge service works off one platform. Currently at most times one arrives just before the other leaves and then waits for half an hour, but it shouldn’t be too difficult to alter this so that the arrival occurs immediately after the departure, this saving a complete platform for the entire day - and still having a highly generous turnaround time of up to 27 minutes.

If Cambridge to Maidstone never happens then I can see no reason for keeping the 700/0s on this route. Some kind of shuffle involving 365s and/or 387s would surely happen.
Newly to this forum but reading with interest. there is certainly some pressure from the South that would suggest that the though services need to be implemented. Currently the Thameslink Sevenoaks terminators occupy Platform 3 of Blackfriars for 20 minutes of each half hour and while they do the plans to run extra Southern Trains via the Wimbledon loop and the somewhat more vague plans for Southeasten to run trains via the Catford Loop into the bays are on ice and both routes desperately need relief in peak times they are rammed.

there are also Maidstone trains running into Platform 4 but they are being run by southeastern.

so regardless of the GN situation in order to alleviate peak pressures in the south they need to get the through trains out of the bays. the most obvious solution to that is getting the Welwyn Sevenoaks service running as soon as possible
 

bramling

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Newly to this forum but reading with interest. there is certainly some pressure from the South that would suggest that the though services need to be implemented. Currently the Thameslink Sevenoaks terminators occupy Platform 3 of Blackfriars for 20 minutes of each half hour and while they do the plans to run extra Southern Trains via the Wimbledon loop and the somewhat more vague plans for Southeasten to run trains via the Catford Loop into the bays are on ice and both routes desperately need relief in peak times they are rammed.

there are also Maidstone trains running into Platform 4 but they are being run by southeastern.

so regardless of the GN situation in order to alleviate peak pressures in the south they need to get the through trains out of the bays. the most obvious solution to that is getting the Welwyn Sevenoaks service running as soon as possible
Welwyn to Sevenoaks presumably isn’t that difficult to do, and as you say has the practical outcome of freeing up a platform at Blackfriars - albeit only in the peak.

Maidstone to Cambridge is the fly in the ointment. If they implement Welwyn to Sevenoaks on its own it doesn’t help free up a platform at King’s Cross, and gives a messy situation of having the peak Welwyn service awkwardly split between core and King’s Cross, as well as Knebworth and Welwyn North having no core service at all. However on the plus side the long turnaround times at King’s Cross and Cambridge do have a positive effect on performance for what would otherwise be a highly fragile setup - on top of the existing fragility brought about by the Brighton and Horsham GN services.

It would probably make sense to start Welwyn to Sevenoaks, and leave Cambridge to Kings Cross as is, perhaps tweaking things to run off one platform at Kings Cross. I’m not fully certain how readily simple the latter is to achieve - outwardly it would be a simple case of just holding the incoming service at the home signal for a couple of minutes, but I’m not sure if that blocks the Thameslink junction, which if so would be undesirable.

There’s also the longer term quandry that with Kings Cross being remodelled, the final layout ideally separates out the Thameslink services from everything else, whereas if the Cambridge services are left using the high-numbered platforms they will need to make a conflicting move at the flat Thameslink junction - not sure how the final layout will handle this, although 2tph out of 8tph shouldn’t be too much of an ask.
 

adrock1976

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What's it called? It's called Cumbernauld
According to the PSUL website, the 1N80 0712 Kirkcaldy - Glasgow Queen Street and the 1N79 1733 Glasgow Queen Street - Markinch that run on Mondays to Fridays will be withdrawn from 18 May.

Being as these are the only trains that are scheduled in passenger service to use the section of track between Winchburgh Junction and Dalmeny Junction, I am unsure if this is legal to withdraw these services or not.
 

Mathew S

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According to the PSUL website, the 1N80 0712 Kirkcaldy - Glasgow Queen Street and the 1N79 1733 Glasgow Queen Street - Markinch that run on Mondays to Fridays will be withdrawn from 18 May.

Being as these are the only trains that are scheduled in passenger service to use the section of track between Winchburgh Junction and Dalmeny Junction, I am unsure if this is legal to withdraw these services or not.
Why would not using a certain section of track not be legal?
 

Johnny Lewis

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Why would not using a certain section of track not be legal?
It would count as an effective closure of the line, so could not be done without Parliamentary approval. It's why trains like Stockport to Stalybridge and the weekly call at Tees-side Airport survive: it's cheaper and less hassle to maintain the bare minimum level of service than to go through all the statutory procedures to close a station or a section of track.
 
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