May 2020 timetable changes

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RailAleFan

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Scotrail changes are now on RTT from May

  • Kintore is added (don't see much changes to the north east/highlands services, maybe more HST diagrams are added)
  • Ayr lose their direct services to Edinburgh (maybe no more 380s seen in the Edinburgh area)
  • Alloa gets a half hour service to glasgow QST
 

Class 466

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Scotrail changes are now on RTT from May

  • Kintore is added (don't see much changes to the north east/highlands services, maybe more HST diagrams are added)
  • Ayr lose their direct services to Edinburgh (maybe no more 380s seen in the Edinburgh area)
  • Alloa gets a half hour service to glasgow QST
The Ayr Edinburgh’s are split at Glasgow Central with a separate service (each part self forming) to Edinburgh via Carstairs which is timed as a 380 still.
 

route101

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Scotrail changes are now on RTT from May

  • Kintore is added (don't see much changes to the north east/highlands services, maybe more HST diagrams are added)
  • Ayr lose their direct services to Edinburgh (maybe no more 380s seen in the Edinburgh area)
  • Alloa gets a half hour service to glasgow QST
Still onE 380 on the Shotts and im sure North Berwick/Dunbar see some.
 

snookertam

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Glasgow Central to Lanark services are retimed. One per hour is diverted to run direct from Uddingston to Motherwell, but then sits at Wishaw for about 5 minutes.

Glasgow Central to Edinburgh also retimed slightly to half clock face departures at each end.
 

Kite159

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Glasgow Central to Lanark services are retimed. One per hour is diverted to run direct from Uddingston to Motherwell, but then sits at Wishaw for about 5 minutes.

Glasgow Central to Edinburgh also retimed slightly to half clock face departures at each end.
Poor Bellshill dropping to hourly towards Motherwell
 

snookertam

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Poor Bellshill dropping to hourly towards Motherwell
Yes. Whatever the reasoning, it is to the expense of passengers and will likely cause a reaction locally.

I think someone is playing at trains as opposed to providing a proper service to the public.
 

snookertam

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I guess that means the Glasgow Queen Street - Stirling stoppers are extended to Alloa?
Those leaving Queen Street at around XX20 past the hour that currently terminate at Stirling, will extend to Alloa.

Those currently running to Dunblane will continue to do so.
 

Bevan Price

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Because the Northern runs at 100mph, and the Avanti at 125mph. If the Northern left Preston at 20:33/34, it would delay the Avanti by the time they got to Lancaster. Further delays could occur to the InterCity at Carnforth North Junction.
No it would not delay the Avanti - a Class 195 can reach Lancaster in 16 minutes from Preston. However, by following the Avanti, it provides a connection to Barrow from "The South". Also, there is no need to put the Manchester Airport - Barrow services onto the slow lines north of Balshaw Lane Junction -- a Class 195 could do 12-13 minutes from Wigan to Preston, and remain clear of the following Avanti service.
 

FelixtheCat

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No it would not delay the Avanti - a Class 195 can reach Lancaster in 16 minutes from Preston. However, by following the Avanti, it provides a connection to Barrow from "The South". Also, there is no need to put the Manchester Airport - Barrow services onto the slow lines north of Balshaw Lane Junction -- a Class 195 could do 12-13 minutes from Wigan to Preston, and remain clear of the following Avanti service.
I don't know where you're getting the 12-13 minute figure from. The times I can see all show 16 minutes (+ 1/2 minues for dwell and departure). If you could direct me to the source, that would be great.

I slightly confused things by referring to 20:33/34 in the post you quoted when the train up for discussion was the 1C58 18:28 Manchester Airport to Barrow-in-Furness, which runs 1 hour earlier. That service does run on the fast lines.

This is my calculation:
1C58 (Northern service in question):
Preston - 19:34
Lancaster - 19:52
Carnforth North Junction (P) - 19:58

1S90 (Virgin Express):
Preston - 19:41
Lancaster - 19:56
Carnforth North Junction (P) - 20:00

There is a 2 minute gap between 1C58 departing Lancaster and 1S90. I'm not sure that the infrastructure allows that.
There is a 2 minute gap between 1C58 passing Carnforth North Junction and 1S90 doing the same. Again, I'm not sure that the infrastructure allows that. There is certainly no current point in the timetable that has services that close together at either location.
 

Bevan Price

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I don't know where you're getting the 12-13 minute figure from. The times I can see all show 16 minutes (+ 1/2 minues for dwell and departure). If you could direct me to the source, that would be great.

I slightly confused things by referring to 20:33/34 in the post you quoted when the train up for discussion was the 1C58 18:28 Manchester Airport to Barrow-in-Furness, which runs 1 hour earlier. That service does run on the fast lines.

This is my calculation:
1C58 (Northern service in question):
Preston - 19:34
Lancaster - 19:52
Carnforth North Junction (P) - 19:58

1S90 (Virgin Express):
Preston - 19:41
Lancaster - 19:56
Carnforth North Junction (P) - 20:00

There is a 2 minute gap between 1C58 departing Lancaster and 1S90. I'm not sure that the infrastructure allows that.
There is a 2 minute gap between 1C58 passing Carnforth North Junction and 1S90 doing the same. Again, I'm not sure that the infrastructure allows that. There is certainly no current point in the timetable that has services that close together at either location.
I was contemplating the general situation, as a similar pattern of service occurs at most hours - I should have made that clearer.
One of my interests is train timing, and there is a difference between what the time table says, and what can be achieved in practice. My best Class 195 time from Lancaster to Preston is 15m. 22s, or just over one minute slower than a typical Pendolino time; all my 195 runs between Wigan & Preston have been checked, but of the few using the Fast Lines throughout, a time of just over 13 minutes seemed feasible until we got stopped outside Preston station (due to a slightly late southbound service.) Allowing for Pendolino stops at Lancaster usually lasting at least 1/2 minutes longer than stops by dmus, I would anticipate a Class 195 being capable of being at least 4 minutes ahead of a Pendolino by Carnforth N Jn. -- but as I also commented, that would be pointless at it would break the connection from The South to the Barrow line.

In fact - if paths were available - and they probably aren't - the Barrow trains could depart Manchester Airport several minutes later, and follow the Pendolino from Golborne Jn., and still depart from Preston at about xx:45.
 

jazza374

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Poor Bellshill dropping to hourly towards Motherwell
Yea but how many passengers actually board at Bellshill headed for Motherwell or beyond? From my experience the trains from Glasgow tip out plenty at Bellshill but outside peak times pick up very few passengers. Bellshill is served by four trains an hour from Central, dropping to three will surely not be too much of an issue.
 

LowLevel

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I have never previously come across any suggestion that the WCML between Stoke and Piccadilly via Congleton and Stockport is congested on Sundays. (Weekdays are obviously a different matter, hence the difficulty in running the extra Piccadilly - Stockport - Greenbank service.)
Is there any particular reason why you believe it is congested on that day - additional freight paths, etc. ?
As far as reliability is concerned, according to post #172 the weekday service at Congleton “isn’t bad” in that respect, so at first sight bringing the Sunday service up to the same frequency (hourly rather than six trains per day) should perform similarly.
In the morning on a Sunday it is congested because you have to plan for a two track railway from Slade Lane to Piccadilly to allow for maintenance - it's not unusual to have to queue. The afternoon is alright though generally.
 

Class 170101

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Unless its been mentioned already, it looks like Northern will be running services between York and Scarborough from May 2020.
 

dk1

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Driver training has been done recently. Was talk service wd form the York to Blackpools but now it will just be a Scarboro to York shuttle.
That's probably for the best. Shame that in the down direction it and the TPx are so close together and with the Liverpool going first performance cannot be expected to be good.
 

Staffordian

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In the morning on a Sunday it is congested because you have to plan for a two track railway from Slade Lane to Piccadilly to allow for maintenance - it's not unusual to have to queue. The afternoon is alright though generally.
Thanks - that explains why that section could easily become as congested as a weekday.
 

markymark2000

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Yes it is.
Are there that many passengers on this section?

Could it be worth Northern cutting back their York to Blackpool service (given Leeds to York has been mentioned in other threads as a bit useless as part of this service) and then run Leeds - York to Scarborough to try and steal a few extra TPE passengers?
 

dk1

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Are there that many passengers on this section?

Could it be worth Northern cutting back their York to Blackpool service (given Leeds to York has been mentioned in other threads as a bit useless as part of this service) and then run Leeds - York to Scarborough to try and steal a few extra TPE passengers?
This would cause extra pressure on Leeds and withdraw the through service to York from Blackpool and stations via Preston, Halifax and Bradford. It's more about increasing passengers through a better frequency to Scarborough than stealing them from another TOC.
 
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Yea but how many passengers actually board at Bellshill headed for Motherwell or beyond? From my experience the trains from Glasgow tip out plenty at Bellshill but outside peak times pick up very few passengers. Bellshill is served by four trains an hour from Central, dropping to three will surely not be too much of an issue.
Looking at RTT there MIGHT be a reduction of 6 car formations on Lanark routes.
 

markymark2000

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This would cause extra pressure on Leeds and withdraw the through service to York from Blackpool and stations via Preston, Halifax and Bradford. It's more about increasing passengers through a better frequency to Scarborough than stealing them from another TOC.
From what has been said elsewhere, the York extension to the Blackpool service is part of an ORCATS raid to get money. It is lightly used apparently. In which case, would it not be better for the Scarborough passengers when they are let down by TPE, and it should offer better connections.
 

dk1

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From what has been said elsewhere, the York extension to the Blackpool service is part of an ORCATS raid to get money. It is lightly used apparently. In which case, would it not be better for the Scarborough passengers when they are let down by TPE, and it should offer better connections.
Hopefully the TPx services will improve as the new fleet settles down. Northern aren't exactly renound for reliability either.
 

158756

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From what has been said elsewhere, the York extension to the Blackpool service is part of an ORCATS raid to get money. It is lightly used apparently. In which case, would it not be better for the Scarborough passengers when they are let down by TPE, and it should offer better connections.
Does it make much difference to Orcats whether Northern's Leeds-York service is extended to Blackpool or Scarborough? I can't look up now what the franchise agreement says about this service, but if Blackpool - York is an Orcats raid it's a very long standing one having survived across at least two franchises now. The ITT for the current franchise required that a service operate from York at least as far as Halifax.
 

js1000

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From what has been said elsewhere, the York extension to the Blackpool service is part of an ORCATS raid to get money. It is lightly used apparently. In which case, would it not be better for the Scarborough passengers when they are let down by TPE, and it should offer better connections.
Could TPE 'counter-raid' on certain routes operated by Northern? In and around Manchester/Liverpool for instance? Partially a deterrent to stop any further 'cornering' on their perceived franchise TSR/territory.
 

30907

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From what has been said elsewhere, the York extension to the Blackpool service is part of an ORCATS raid to get money. It is lightly used apparently. In which case, would it not be better for the Scarborough passengers when they are let down by TPE, and it should offer better connections.
Where has this been (authoritatively!) said?
As well as the Halifax/Bradford-York link which is hardly insignificant, the service currently provides Church Fenton with its Leeds link.
 
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