Memories of London Country

[CatfordCat]

Do you know why the 53 went to Plumstead Garage on a Sunday only, and Plumstead Common the rest of the week. Just curious ?

Almost certainly a question of crew reliefs and canteen facilities.

largely that. There were a few Sunday only extensions because either cafe or toilets (or both) weren't available on a Sunday. And in some cases it was so that crew duties could be a bit shorter (possibly falling just the right side of whatever duty limits were in the terms and conditions of the day) if the crew continued to / from the garage in their own bus rather than waiting to travel passenger on a service bus which was less frequent on a Sunday. It's not at all uncommon now for London buses to run back to garages for meal reliefs evenings and / or Sundays, but of course it's 'not in service' now.

On the matter of different-coloured buses on the 477, I've just been reading a review of the 'Green No More' book which has been mentioned in this thread, and the reviewer pointed out an incorrect caption to a photo taken in 1986 of a 477, it being a Bournemouth Corporation Atlantean rather than a Fleetline, so that may have been one you saw.

(edited after reading post #60 - i took a while compiling mine)

photo of a couple of Bournemouth Atlanteans on the 477 in 1986 here on Flickr

I must have missed that hire, but it could have been because Kentish Bus won route 51 on LRT tender from August 86 (info from Ian Armstrong's site) and needed more buses in a hurry. The 51 ended up mainly with ex Strathclyde Atlanteans but they may not have got them repainted and so on in time. I don't recall the Bournemouth buses, so assume they were fairly short term.

As MotCO has said above, for reasons unclear, KB decided to have a clean break with the past, so after (for example) green 477s for over 50 years, you suddenly got cream / purple 17s.

Except that coach operator Transcity stepped in and registered competing services on a number of routes including the 477, mostly using green liveried buses and the old route numbers.

There's a Flickr album by Solenteer which includes a few shots of Transcity buses round Dartford in the late 80s - also the brief foray in to Gravesend by Black Horse buses.

 

[MotCO]

l

As MotCO has said above, for reasons unclear, KB decided to have a clean break with the past, so after (for example) green 477s for over 50 years, you suddenly got cream / purple 17s.

.

Surely they were cream and maroon.

 

[Typhoon]

photo of a couple of Bournemouth Atlanteans on the 477 in 1986 here on Flickr

Definitely more common than is implied in 'Green No More'. I've counted four different vehicles on 423 and 477, and that's just looking at a few of the photos.

 

[cav1975]

Just adding some jottings to some of the above comprehensive info.
LT Country Area were never allocated any standard length Routemasters, other than a very brief sojourn by the prototype RM2, at the beginning of its life, at Reigate on the 406. By the time Country Buses got any, only RMLs were being built, so that's what they received. Politics played a huge part in all this: LT, having used the first few hundred RMs to mainly replace trolleybuses, wanted to start replacing the RT class (including RTLs and RTWs) with RMs. Now that would mean 56 seaters being replaced by 64 seaters, so LT management hatched a plan whereby 7 RMs would replace 8 RT class, offering exactly the same number of seats. IIRC the plan was meant to be implemented at Harrow Weald first, maybe chosen because the crews there had no history of militancy, but as soon as the Union (TGWU) got wind of this all hell broke loose. Suffice to say it never happened! It didn't stop cuts in services, of course, particularly outside M-F peaks, but these were supposedly based on demand in particular areas or on particular corridors. LT also desperately needed to make opo work without bringing neighbourhoods to a halt for hours while bus drivers wrestled with fare charts and change. They'd over-ordered the number of Routemasters they needed (rather like the situation now with the LTs) so Country got allocated rather more than they probably wanted either, given they too really needed to get rid of conductors as soon as possible.

This certainly happened in the northern country zone. The 311 route (Garston - Watford - Radlett - Shenley) went from 60 minute interval RTs to 70 minute interval RMLs with the publicity saying that the number of seats per hour had gone up!

 

[Statto]

Surely they were cream and maroon.

Kentish Bus had 2 liveries, Cream & Maroon mostly for the London area & Green & Yellow for Kent however quite often you'd see KB buses with both liveries in London area

 

[frodshamfella]

I guess you mean the section between Gravel Hill and Crayford. Has no service now (despite having residences for older people) so probably insufficient demand.

I suppose the only reason why 725/6 went that way was because it was the quickest (and straightest) way to get to Dartford.

Yes I think your right, was the most direct route.

 

[frodshamfella]

Almost certainly a question of crew reliefs and canteen facilities. I never travelled on the route on a Sunday, but on weekdays you could regularly find five or six 53s on the stand at Plumstead Common, including some Plumstead buses which appeared to be taking a break. It was a similar situation to Stoke Newington Common, where you could find up to ten 73s at a time, some of the Tottenham allocated ones (when there were Mortlake ones too) spending some time there. There was probably room at Plumstead (AM) on a Sunday to turn all the 53s there, with the reduced service on that day.

On the matter of different-coloured buses on the 477, I've just been reading a review of the 'Green No More' book which has been mentioned in this thread, and the reviewer pointed out an incorrect caption to a photo taken in 1986 of a 477, it being a Bournemouth Corporation Atlantean rather than a Fleetline, so that may have been one you saw.

I did take a 53 on a Sunday from Plumstead Garage, the road it travelled a long was I think called Kings Highway, and surprisingly there were passengers using the service even though a Sunday only.

One other question I have my local bus was the 122 and 122A. The 122 and other routes commonly stopped short, for example Bexleyheath Station or Brockley Rise or Forest Hill. I'm not sure these destinations were timetabled was it just late running ? The 99 often turned back at Upper Belvedere Eardley Arms, some of these could have been timetabled ?

 

[frodshamfella]

There used to be what seemed a number of different bus routes running between Joyce Green Hospital and Darenth Park Hospital in Dartford , I think some had an ' A' prefix. There seemed a lot of them!

 

[transmanche]

One other question I have my local bus was the 122 and 122A. The 122 and other routes commonly stopped short, for example Bexleyheath Station or Brockley Rise or Forest Hill. I'm not sure these destinations were timetabled was it just late running ? The 99 often turned back at Upper Belvedere Eardley Arms, some of these could have been timetabled ?

The bus history site London Buses shows that in the mid-1980s the main 122 service ran in two overlapping sections; Bexleyheath Garage-Forest Hill and Plumstead Garage-Crystal Palace, but that other destinations were also scheduled.

 

[Typhoon]

I did take a 53 on a Sunday from Plumstead Garage, the road it travelled a long was I think called Kings Highway, and surprisingly there were passengers using the service even though a Sunday only.

One other question I have my local bus was the 122 and 122A. The 122 and other routes commonly stopped short, for example Bexleyheath Station or Brockley Rise or Forest Hill. I'm not sure these destinations were timetabled was it just la te running ? The 99 often turned back at Upper Belvedere Eardley Arms, some of these could have been timetabled ?

A few 99s were timetabled to turn at the Eardley. I know that as I lived at the wrong side of the turn. Always seemed an odd place to turn having just gone through woodland but I suppose there were very few places to turn otherwise.

 

[Busaholic]

Thank you for making the effort to look into this.

I've had a look at 'Green No More', I suspect it was an Eastbourne Regent. The Maidstone Leylands were fairly regular on the 499 (Dartford local) so were not unfamiliar. The Bournemouth buses are extremely distinctive and, according to the caption, 'The Bournemouth Atlanteans were never formally allocated anywhere but Leatherhead' adding that this use was 'extremely unusual'. The bus concerned is ULJ 264J. I have searched for it using a well known search engine and every case I have found (around half a dozen) has described it as an Atlantean. The picture is not dated but the text on adjacent pages concerns 1977 and 1978. The next chapter describes the arrival of Atlanteans to convert the 477 to OMO in December 1979. I won't ask the name of the reviewer but I'm not convinced that I would place a great deal of trust in their reviews! None of this casts a shadow on your research, of course.

That's interesting: the reviewer goes on to imply that the author mistook it for a borrowed bus from Leatherhead, used on the 408 and 470 routes, which he (the reviewer) states were Fleetlines. I'm not taking sides on this: the London Bus Magazine, produced by LOTS, is the source of the review, so is a fairly specialist and reliable publication but, like anyone, can make mistakes! My own knowledge, such as it is, is very much of Central Area services of LT, prior to 1970, then its red bus successors. Even so, I'm a lot more interested in bus routes than the buses themselves, being the most non-technical person that ever existed! I can often distinguish a Fleetline from an Atlantean, but probably based on a little knowledge of which company operated what.

 

[341o2]

I covered the final years of both the RT and RF in central and country areas. The nearest "green " buses were at New Barnet station, particularly the 306 to Watford and Garston.

I recommend the publications of LOTS (London Omnibus Traction Society) for anyone wanting more details. In frount of me is SUP-14, which lists the fleet, allocations, garages, routes and allocations for 7/62, published in 1977 when the red RT was confined to a few routes, and the green RT to a few buses.

I found the country area far more fascinating, as well as being in the country, buses would not just be on one route. And one class, the 1962 allocation at Hertford, shows the 310/A, RT covering journeys on the 331, normally RF, for example.

One visit was to cover the Hemel Hempstead routes, and the 319, which had A to D suffixes, and while laying over at the Ovaltine works, an obliging driver ran through the blinds for me to photograph.

Then there was Harlow with several of the town services having route numbers in the 800's

As mentioned, the aim was to modernise the fleet, but due to problems, buses had to be hired from other companies, as well as the odd RT and RF lingering on at most garages. What route they would be working on today was anybody's guess. Or sometimes what bus, as in desperation better to have something than no bus at all. There were a couple of times when - no blind, no problem when you have a stick of chalk

403 Express Croydon to Chelsham Just when you thought the last RT's were gone, one (or was it two?) were overhauled and painted in NBC green with their logo.

Many Routemasters returned to the central area. Some were stripped for spares, but others, including most (if not all) of the RCL's reentered service and I remember them on LT routes 279/A (Edit as query whether they worked other routes)

 

[Busaholic]

The bus history site London Buses shows that in the mid-1980s the main 122 service ran in two overlapping sections; Bexleyheath Garage-Forest Hill and Plumstead Garage-Crystal Palace, but that other destinations were also scheduled.

I was living just off the Lee High Road for almost all the 1980s, so saw almost all the service offering, the exception being the schooltime extras to Eltham Green from the Woolwich direction which, for some reason, always showed Middle Park Avenue on the blind. The 122 had a 10 minute service between peaks over the Forest Hill to Plumstead Garage section, better than now (better than in the peaks now, indeed), and Brockley Rise turners replaced the 261 Saturday extension to that point around 1985. Bexleyheath Station was only a laterunning terminus, I think, and probably imposed when the bus reached Woolwich or Plumstead. Lewisham was another short turn for late running, especially on a Saturday. Lee Green and Well Hall Roundabout were also possible termini, but I never saw the former. I daresay Woolwich to Bexleyheath shorts may have been scheduled in the peaks too.

 

[MotCO]

Some were stripped for spares, but others, including most (if not all) of the RCL's reentered service on LT routes 279/A

I seem to remember they were at first allocated to the 149 - (Edmonton to Victoria?).

 

[Busaholic]

I seem to remember they were at first allocated to the 149 - (Edmonton to Victoria?).

I remember them on the 253, worked by Stamford Hill. Incidentally, the 149 at that time was worked in two sections. Only Stamford Hill buses ever worked through to Victoria, and those journeys never went further north than Stamford Hill, either. Edmonton buses worked no further south than Liverpool Street, with the sole exception of some early morning journeys to Mansion House Station. Unusually for LT this was rigidly adhered to: I'm not even sure Edmonton buses had Victoria on their blinds. This mirrored the 127 of the 1960s, created from trolleybus 627, which also went to Victoria, but only Highgate (HT) buses ever made it through: Edmonton had to content themselves with their old Howland Street terminus off the Tottenham Court Road.

 

[Typhoon]

That's interesting: the reviewer goes on to imply that the author mistook it for a borrowed bus from Leatherhead, used on the 408 and 470 routes, which he (the reviewer) states were Fleetlines. I'm not taking sides on this: the London Bus Magazine, produced by LOTS, is the source of the review, so is a fairly specialist and reliable publication but, like anyone, can make mistakes! My own knowledge, such as it is, is very much of Central Area services of LT, prior to 1970, then its red bus successors. Even so, I'm a lot more interested in bus routes than the buses themselves, being the most non-technical person that ever existed! I can often distinguish a Fleetline from an Atlantean, but probably based on a little knowledge of which company operated what.

I must admit I always associated Bournemouth with Fleetlines, hence my searching for several references (although I don't know, of course, that they don't all fall back on the same source). Finding that their use at Swanley was not as 'extremely unusual' as was made out (detailed in #63) has cast some doubts of the accuracy of the book. I suppose the author (and reviewer) of a book on an organisation spread across such a wide geographic area might struggle to get to grips with, say, short-term movements to plug vehicle shortages and the details of the vehicles themselves. I have used the reference in #61 (and adjacent pictures), although I have now found a picture of a vehicle from a different batch.

Your source is, indeed, grade one.

 

[Busaholic]

I must admit I always associated Bournemouth with Fleetlines, hence my searching for several references (although I don't know, of course, that they don't all fall back on the same source). Finding that their use at Swanley was not as 'extremely unusual' as was made out (detailed in #63) has cast some doubts of the accuracy of the book. I suppose the author (and reviewer) of a book on an organisation spread across such a wide geographic area might struggle to get to grips with, say, short-term movements to plug vehicle shortages and the details of the vehicles themselves. I have used the reference in #61 (and adjacent pictures), although I have now found a picture of a vehicle from a different batch.

Your source is, indeed, grade one.

I'm beginning to doubt myself now (not for the first time!) I say this because I'm just realising the significance for me of a 1986 date on that Atlantean photo on the 477. 1986 was the year when I established a shop with my brother in the Walnuts Centre in Orpington, so I was seeing 477s all the time and I just don't remember any borrowed buses BUT it was just a few weeks after opening that the Roundabout routes were created, the 61 went over to the (independent) Metrobus, who certainly used Fleetlines (DMSs) etc etc so it may just have faded from my memory about the 477s. On the subject of Strathclyde Atlanteans on the 51, my memories are of broken-down buses in Cray Avenue and two or three buses standing waiting for crew relief outside Sidcup McDonalds, where I used to sometimes sit waiting for a 21 for the next stage of my journey home!

 

[CatfordCat]

One other question I have my local bus was the 122 and 122A. The 122 and other routes commonly stopped short, for example Bexleyheath Station or Brockley Rise or Forest Hill. I'm not sure these destinations were timetabled was it just late running ? The 99 often turned back at Upper Belvedere Eardley Arms, some of these could have been timetabled ?

The bus history site London Buses shows that in the mid-1980s the main 122 service ran in two overlapping sections; Bexleyheath Garage-Forest Hill and Plumstead Garage-Crystal Palace, but that other destinations were also scheduled.

^ that

the current TFL concept that all journeys on every route must run end to end is a fairly recent thing.

several routes ran in overlapping sections, to reflect greater demand in the middle of the route and less at the outer ends. exactly how it worked varied - sometimes you would get variations in the two directions, again so that crew duties worked.

a few routes had several sections - the lengthy (on paper at least) 12 had no through buses from South Croydon to Willesden in the 50s / 60s and there were several times of day / week that there weren't any through buses from Norwood Junction to Willesden Junction in the 70s / 80s.

Other SE London routes that ran in sections included the 21 which (at some times of day / week at least) ran Moorgate - Eltham and Lewisham - Sidcup; the 47 Shoreditch - Bromley Garage and Lewisham (Surrey Docks on Saturdays) - Farnborough; the 1 Marylebone - Surrey Docks / Waterloo - Bromley Garage.

The 124 was quite complicated, the sections between Forest Hill -Catford, Catford - Downham, Downham - Grove Park, Grove Park - Eltham, Eltham - Welling (and the odd peak hour journeys to Plumstead / Woolwich) each having different frequencies at some times, hence all manner of scheduled short workings.

the 141 was possibly unique in that on Saturdays (in the 70s at least) it ran in two sections that didn't touch - Wood Green - Moorgate, and Grove Park - Elephant, with a few early morning journeys to Farringdon Street for home-going print workers.

many other routes had a lower frequency at outer ends - on the 94 (and later 208) only every second or third bus continued beyond Petts Wood to Orpington, the 146 had peak hour extras to Keston 'Fox' and so on.

 

[Typhoon]

I'm beginning to doubt myself now (not for the first time!) I say this because I'm just realising the significance for me of a 1986 date on that Atlantean photo on the 477. 1986 was the year when I established a shop with my brother in the Walnuts Centre in Orpington, so I was seeing 477s all the time and I just don't remember any borrowed buses BUT it was just a few weeks after opening that the Roundabout routes were created, the 61 went over to the (independent) Metrobus, who certainly used Fleetlines (DMSs) etc etc so it may just have faded from my memory about the 477s. On the subject of Strathclyde Atlanteans on the 51, my memories are of broken-down buses in Cray Avenue and two or three buses standing waiting for crew relief outside Sidcup McDonalds, where I used to sometimes sit waiting for a 21 for the next stage of my journey home!

I am a bit more certain that the year is wrong, as is mentioned elsewhere, Kentish Bus renumbered the 477. Also, with the advent of the minibuses there was no shortage of big buses so no need to borrow buses for local use (London contracts is a different matter but this is dealt with in little detail in the book - only that the loss of the 51 contract meant the closure of Swanley garage.) All the Bournemouth buses are labelled 'On hire to London Country', which is just possible for 1986. My nagging doubt is that J regs would be pretty young to go on loan in the late 70s.

 

[Busaholic]

^ that

the current TFL concept that all journeys on every route must run end to end is a fairly recent thing.

several routes ran in overlapping sections, to reflect greater demand in the middle of the route and less at the outer ends. exactly how it worked varied - sometimes you would get variations in the two directions, again so that crew duties worked.

a few routes had several sections - the lengthy (on paper at least) 12 had no through buses from South Croydon to Willesden in the 50s / 60s and there were several times of day / week that there weren't any through buses from Norwood Junction to Willesden Junction in the 70s / 80s.

Other SE London routes that ran in sections included the 21 which (at some times of day / week at least) ran Moorgate - Eltham and Lewisham - Sidcup; the 47 Shoreditch - Bromley Garage and Lewisham (Surrey Docks on Saturdays) - Farnborough; the 1 Marylebone - Surrey Docks / Waterloo - Bromley Garage.

The 124 was quite complicated, the sections between Forest Hill -Catford, Catford - Downham, Downham - Grove Park, Grove Park - Eltham, Eltham - Welling (and the odd peak hour journeys to Plumstead / Woolwich) each having different frequencies at some times, hence all manner of scheduled short workings.

the 141 was possibly unique in that on Saturdays (in the 70s at least) it ran in two sections that didn't touch - Wood Green - Moorgate, and Grove Park - Elephant, with a few early morning journeys to Farringdon Street for home-going print workers.

many other routes had a lower frequency at outer ends - on the 94 (and later 208) only every second or third bus continued beyond Petts Wood to Orpington, the 146 had peak hour extras to Keston 'Fox' and so on.

You're spot on with all those, but the granddaddy of them all in the 1950s, when I was a small boy living in Well Hall Road, Eltham, was the 182 route that helped supplant the last trams, and ran between Cannon Street and Woolwich with pre-war RTs. It ran every day of the week, including all evenings, but there was a time when the only piece of the route that was covered at all times was the few hundred yards between Eltham Church and Well Hall Station, as at times it ran CS to Well Hall only, and on another day, in the evening, between Eltham Church and Woolwich (although, just to confuse matters further, the buses actually terminated at Well Hall Station, having worked a dead run down Eltham Hill to the Baths, then down Sherard Road, a piece of route I was never able to travel on.)

On the 124, Grove Park only came onto the scene as a terminus for some journeys during my period at school in Catford in the 1960s, possibly when cuts to the 36B and 141 rendered enough space available. I believe this was achieved by pushing through some of the Downham, Shroffold Road shorts.

 

[Typhoon]

495 / 496 (Gravesend town services) were each every 20 minutes, with an even 10 minute service for the joint section of route.

Weren't these the farebox routes?

 

[341o2]

I seem to remember they were at first allocated to the 149 - (Edmonton to Victoria?).

I've edited my post, as I was studying in Merseyside at this time and only came back to London on holidays. Another proposal at this time was to purchase some Routemasters from Northern General and use them on the northern part of route 26.

Going back to London Country, a day covering the Dunton Green routes, with fascinating destinations such as Kemsing (Noah's Ark) and Fort Halstead.
Or Hemel Heampsted serving Apsley Mills (clock)
Or you could catch a bus to Holland
Red route 84 to St Albans, right into green territory

While Green line services were deemed prestigious, RF's continued to make appearances until the mid 1970's.

 

[CatfordCat]

I am a bit more certain that the year is wrong, as is mentioned elsewhere, Kentish Bus renumbered the 477. Also, with the advent of the minibuses there was no shortage of big buses so no need to borrow buses for local use (London contracts is a different matter but this is dealt with in little detail in the book - only that the loss of the 51 contract meant the closure of Swanley garage.) All the Bournemouth buses are labelled 'On hire to London Country', which is just possible for 1986. My nagging doubt is that J regs would be pretty young to go on loan in the late 70s.

I am sure that Bournemouth's loan of C-registered Fleetlines (picture here - dated 1976) to Leatherhead in the mid 70s was a different occasion to the loan of J registered Atlanteans to Swanley in 1986. There's another picture of a 477 here from a different photographer which they have dated September 1986, and the bus is being overtaken by a Y registered (1982/3) car. And one in Dartford (dated August 1986) here - the 'on hire' label appears to read London Country Bus (South East) Ltd.

The re-branding as Kentish Bus happened in 1987 (LCBS was split in late 1986), and fairly sure the route re-numbering happened with or shortly after the launch of the KB identity.

Weren't these the farebox routes?

yes, 495/6 were farebox MBS in the 70s at least. I think they ended up conventional OPO but can't recall when.

 

[Typhoon]

I am sure that Bournemouth's loan of C-registered Fleetlines (picture here - dated 1976) to Leatherhead in the mid 70s was a different occasion to the loan of J registered Atlanteans to Swanley in 1986. There's another picture of a 477 here from a different photographer which they have dated September 1986, and the bus is being overtaken by a Y registered (1982/3) car. And one in Dartford (dated August 1986) here - the 'on hire' label appears to read London Country Bus (South East) Ltd.

yes, 495/6 were farebox MBS in the 70s at least. I think they ended up conventional OPO but can't recall when.

Bournemouth - this makes absolute sense, so the caption in the book is indeed wrong. I hadn't considered too different loans and explains why 'young' vehicles were sent on loan - they weren't young!

I think you are right about 495/496 converting to conventional OPO - a need for rising fares and OPO becoming mainstream probably clinched it.

Very helpful, thank you.

 

[MotCO]

Going back to London Country, a day covering the Dunton Green routes, with fascinating destinations such as Kemsing (Noah's Ark) and Fort Halstead.

The annual Sevenoaks Country Bus Rally recreates several of these routes - this year it is on May 26.

 

[Hophead]

Kentish Bus had 2 liveries, Cream & Maroon mostly for the London area & Green & Yellow for Kent however quite often you'd see KB buses with both liveries in London area

I'm going to have to take issue with that, since it doesn't correspond with my memories and a quick scan of Wikipedia agrees. However, since that's hardly a reliable source, I cross-referenced some old LOTS Annual Reviews from 1987 & 1988. Cream/maroon was applied to the whole fleet from 1987 onwards (designed by someone called Ray Stenning from a company called Best Impressions, apparently!) and this appeared on both London & Kent vehicles. There are pictures available with a web search, though not as many as you'd think, but my old LOTS publications do back me up.

According to Wiki, green & yellow came about as a result of the company's management by Invictaway (including Maidstone & District) in 1996, which does sound about right.

 

[Busaholic]

Going back to London Country, a day covering the Dunton Green routes, with fascinating destinations such as Kemsing (Noah's Ark) and Fort Halstead.
.

Not often seen, because it was in the middle of the circular route 471, but Cudham was a destination I loved to see.

 

[Busaholic]

I'm going to have to take issue with that, since it doesn't correspond with my memories and a quick scan of Wikipedia agrees. However, since that's hardly a reliable source, I cross-referenced some old LOTS Annual Reviews from 1987 & 1988. Cream/maroon was applied to the whole fleet from 1987 onwards (designed by someone called Ray Stenning from a company called Best Impressions, apparently!) and this appeared on both London & Kent vehicles. There are pictures available with a web search, though not as many as you'd think, but my old LOTS publications do back me up.

According to Wiki, green & yellow came about as a result of the company's management by Invictaway (including Maidstone & District) in 1996, which does sound about right.

My memories coincide with yours regarding the livery. The 17 (ex 477s) were certainly in maroon and cream, and it was never a 'London' route even though it came into Bromley borough.

 

[frodshamfella]

Didn't some of the 477s terminate at Kelvin Parade Orpington....I may have this wrong !!

 

[Busaholic]

Didn't some of the 477s terminate at Kelvin Parade Orpington....I may have this wrong !!

They did! I think these were 'shorts' from Chelsfield Station, rather than from the other direction, and possibly (?) some other green buses may have had journeys to there. I don't think the 471 did, but the 431 from Sevenoaks may have, and the 493 (probably) from Ramsden Estate.