Memories of London Country

[MotCO]

The 17 (ex 477s) were certainly in maroon and cream, and it was never a 'London' route even though it came into Bromley borough.

I recall route 493 playing host to cream and maroon Atlanteans, and that was a 'London Regional Transport' route. I also recall that a different garage provided the buses on a Sunday since the normal garage (Dunton Green?) was closed on that day, so that might explain it.

 

[MotCO]

Didn't some of the 477s terminate at Kelvin Parade Orpington....I may have this wrong !!

A bus certainly used to terminate there, and the bus stop post (minus flag) was there for years afterwards. But I can't remember whether it was the 477 or 493.

 

[Hophead]

I recall route 493 playing host to cream and maroon Atlanteans, and that was a 'London Regional Transport' route. I also recall that a different garage provided the buses on a Sunday since the normal garage (Dunton Green?) was closed on that day, so that might explain it.

Sunday 493s came off the 477 at Orpington Station.

 

[Busaholic]

I've been doing a little digging, and come across photos of GSs on the 471 (so, pre London Country by a few years) with destinations of both Kelvin Parade and Knockholt Pound. I do remember GSs on the 471, but never saw the Kelvin Parade destination: it was presumably an interpeak one for shoppers, prior to or around the time of construction of the Walnuts Centre. My guess on the 493 would be that Kelvin Parade could be shown prior to a quick dash up the by-pass to start another journey from the Ramsden i.e. not actually using that terminal bus stop.

 

[Alfie1014]

My memories of LC in the Grays area are very mixed. In 1976 I started at 6th form college and used the 328 to get there most days. In this first year the college was on two sites, the former boys and girls grammar schools, whilst work was completed on expanding the girls school site. I had classes at both sites and at lesson change times LC ran shuttle buses from one location to the other, just for the students. From memory at the start of the year RCLs were mostly used but as the year went on VRTs (mostly used on the 370) became more commonplace.

On leaving college in 1978 And starting work in London I used the bus to get to the station, again the 328. Over the years the service quality declined, there were (many) strikes, shortage of crews and serviceable vehicles and at times awful reliability. Not surprisingly usage declined dramatically so by the mid-80s the number of ‘peak time’ commuters had dwindled and service frequencies had dropped from about every 5-10 minutes in the peaks to every 30 minutes, with little or no consideration for connecting with train times. Amazing that in the late 1960s/early 70s the Thurrock area had the highest level of bus usage in the whole of Essex but by the mid-80s it had some of the lowest.

Even as an avid public transport advocate I too abandoned the buses, getting lifts, walking and eventually moving to avoid using the bus. It took the opening of Lakeside shopping centre and more importantly the rise of the excellent Ensignbus network to restore a quality provision for the area.

 

[Busaholic]

My memories of LC in the Grays area are very mixed. In 1976 I started at 6th form college and used the 328 to get there most days. In this first year the college was on two sites, the former boys and girls grammar schools, whilst work was completed on expanding the girls school site. I had classes at both sites and at lesson change times LC ran shuttle buses from one location to the other, just for the students. From memory at the start of the year RCLs were mostly used but as the year went on VRTs (mostly used on the 370) became more commonplace.

On leaving college in 1978 And starting work in London I used the bus to get to the station, again the 328. Over the years the service quality declined, there were (many) strikes, shortage of crews and serviceable vehicles and at times awful reliability. Not surprisingly usage declined dramatically so by the mid-80s the number of ‘peak time’ commuters had dwindled and service frequencies had dropped from about every 5-10 minutes in the peaks to every 30 minutes, with little or no consideration for connecting with train times. Amazing that in the late 1960s/early 70s the Thurrock area had the highest level of bus usage in the whole of Essex but by the mid-80s it had some of the lowest.

Even as an avid public transport advocate I too abandoned the buses, getting lifts, walking and eventually moving to avoid using the bus. It took the opening of Lakeside shopping centre and more importantly the rise of the excellent Ensignbus network to restore a quality provision for the area.

When London Country got split up it was noticeable that the so-called North East part was the least attractive to outside investors. Not knowing nearly enough about it to speculate why that was, but did LC tend to ignore it in their latter years as a unified company? I suppose it was a good guess that Harlow would see a lot of competition once deregulation happened.

 

[Typhoon]

My memories of LC in the Grays area are very mixed. In 1976 I started at 6th form college and used the 328 to get there most days. In this first year the college was on two sites, the former boys and girls grammar schools, whilst work was completed on expanding the girls school site. I had classes at both sites and at lesson change times LC ran shuttle buses from one location to the other, just for the students. From memory at the start of the year RCLs were mostly used but as the year went on VRTs (mostly used on the 370) became more commonplace.

On leaving college in 1978 And starting work in London I used the bus to get to the station, again the 328. Over the years the service quality declined, there were (many) strikes, shortage of crews and serviceable vehicles and at times awful reliability. Not surprisingly usage declined dramatically so by the mid-80s the number of ‘peak time’ commuters had dwindled and service frequencies had dropped from about every 5-10 minutes in the peaks to every 30 minutes, with little or no consideration for connecting with train times. Amazing that in the late 1960s/early 70s the Thurrock area had the highest level of bus usage in the whole of Essex but by the mid-80s it had some of the lowest.

Even as an avid public transport advocate I too abandoned the buses, getting lifts, walking and eventually moving to avoid using the bus. It took the opening of Lakeside shopping centre and more importantly the rise of the excellent Ensignbus network to restore a quality provision for the area.

I always felt that the Grays operation was rather isolated from the rest of the London Country network with Eastern National and London Transport squeezing it into the Thurrock area. Consequently maybe it didn't get the attention it deserved.

I used to buy the London Country South East edition timetable in the late 60s/ early 70s and the timetables for Grays were in there, presumably to make the book a bit fatter! (OK, and the Gravesend-Tilbury ferry, whose timetable might have been included.) It was isolated from the other Essex operations. If I remember right there was only one route (besides the Green Line) which really ventured outside of this corner - to Romford (370?). I got the impression, maybe wrongly, that a fair number of the routes were work related - to local employers. With the rise in car ownership, this business would have dwindled. They did get London Country's only VRTs though.

As is quoted above, it needed someone who understood the area to get things moving.

 

[341o2]

Not often seen, because it was in the middle of the circular route 471, but Cudham was a destination I loved to see.

I tried to cover the more infrequent destinations, Fort Halstead was (or should that be is?) private and disappointed that when the bus left the grounds, the blinds were already set for the next journey

 

[A0wen]

When London Country got split up it was noticeable that the so-called North East part was the least attractive to outside investors. Not knowing nearly enough about it to speculate why that was, but did LC tend to ignore it in their latter years as a unified company? I suppose it was a good guess that Harlow would see a lot of competition once deregulation happened.

A mix of factors - you had a 'block' of garages in Hertford, Stevenage, Hatfield and St Albans and two 'outliers' in Harlow and Grays.

The operations weren't that profitable - you had the town services in Stevenage and Harlow but apart from a few 'trunk' routes, many of LCNE's routes weren't registered as commercial, which shows the problem.

That said other parts of London Country were far from profitable - LCNW ended up being bought by Luton & District when it was financially struggling.

In some ways it might have been better if at inception rather than running London Country as it was inherited from LT, that some areas had been allocated off to other companies e.g. Grays and Harlow to Eastern National, Stevenage and Luton to United Counties, Slough, Amersham and High Wycombe to Alder Valley etc.

 

[Wirewiper]

In some ways it might have been better if at inception rather than running London Country as it was inherited from LT, that some areas had been allocated off to other companies e.g. Grays and Harlow to Eastern National, Stevenage and Luton to United Counties, Slough, Amersham and High Wycombe to Alder Valley etc.

Grays back to Eastern National yes, but United Counties had enough on its plate in the early 1970s trying to get its troubled Luton Corporation acquisition into shape. As for Alder Valley, that was already a basket case as Thames Valley, and the merger with Aldershot & District in 1972 was supposed to help it out but just ended up spreading the malaise over a bigger organisation. However one advantage that Thames Valley and Alder Valley did have is that they co-operated well with LT and London Country in the 1960s and 1970s and had services in Slough and High Wycombe that were effectively joint in all but name.

Perhaps it might have made sense to float the North area and South area off as separate companies under the NBC umbrella and split the Green Line routes at Victoria into separate sections - as ended up happening anyway.

 

[A0wen]

Grays back to Eastern National yes, but United Counties had enough on its plate in the early 1970s trying to get its troubled Luton Corporation acquisition into shape. As for Alder Valley, that was already a basket case as Thames Valley, and the merger with Aldershot & District in 1972 was supposed to help it out but just ended up spreading the malaise over a bigger organisation. However one advantage that Thames Valley and Alder Valley did have is that they co-operated well with LT and London Country in the 1960s and 1970s and had services in Slough and High Wycombe that were effectively joint in all but name.

Perhaps it might have made sense to float the North area and South area off as separate companies under the NBC umbrella and split the Green Line routes at Victoria into separate sections - as ended up happening anyway.

I don't think adding London Country's Luton depot to UC would have caused an issue - it only operated a handful of routes, most of which were rural ones that ended up swapping with a couple of UC ones a couple of years later.

Stevenage might have helped UC as they would probably have closed Hitchin depot and consolidated at Stevenage much earlier.

 

[Wirewiper]

I don't think adding London Country's Luton depot to UC would have caused an issue - it only operated a handful of routes, most of which were rural ones that ended up swapping with a couple of UC ones a couple of years later.

Stevenage might have helped UC as they would probably have closed Hitchin depot and consolidated at Stevenage much earlier.

Although London Country also had a garage in Hitchin at one time, and in the early days of Stevenage New Town the services were operated from there. Hitchin Garage was closed when Stevenage garage opened in 1959.

A similar scenario existed in Harlow - the Town Routes were operated from Epping Garage until May 1963 when the new Garage in Harlow opened and Epping was closed.

I think London Country wanted to hold on to Luton because of the Green Line routes (United Counties were not permitted to run routes from Luton into London) and also it was a useful outer base for the lengthy 321 route. It enabled London Country to protect its monopoly in the area to the south of Luton.

 

[Typhoon]

In some ways it might have been better if at inception rather than running London Country as it was inherited from LT, that some areas had been allocated off to other companies e.g. Grays and Harlow to Eastern National, Stevenage and Luton to United Counties, Slough, Amersham and High Wycombe to Alder Valley etc.

Grays to Eastern National certainly made sense as EN already operated routes in that area and it was very isolated from the rest of the network (although Green Line a potential problem - EN did operate into London though).

In some areas the opposite happened Maidstone & District had to hand over their local services in Gravesend to London Country in 1978.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

I think London Country wanted to hold on to Luton because of the Green Line routes (United Counties were not permitted to run routes from Luton into London) and also it was a useful outer base for the lengthy 321 route. It enabled London Country to protect its monopoly in the area to the south of Luton.

Surely the fact that the Luton operations of London Country was more symptomatic of NBC's failure to grasp the nettle of company boundaries? The London Country "monopoly" was an anachronism from the formation of the LTPB in 1933 giving London Transport and it's agents {whatever that was meant to mean} monopoly rights over routes south of Luton. Surely with the country operations being moved to the NBC they were now in common ownership with UCOC and it would have made more sense for the Luton operations being amalgamated under one company. Certainly over the years many of the former LC routes in Luton passed to UCOC {eg 360 becoming UC6, 364/A becoming UC43, 88, part 63/64}. Certainly the Park St W premises of LC in Luton were cramped and unfit for purpose and were closed IIRC in 1976 when UCOC reorganised and rationalised it's services in Luton. It would have made much more sense at that time if, instead of transfering operations to St Albans the LC workings from Luton had passed to UC.. ok so it would've meant a lot of joint working, but it seemed to work in other areas!

 

[CatfordCat]

I recall route 493 playing host to cream and maroon Atlanteans, and that was a 'London Regional Transport' route. I also recall that a different garage provided the buses on a Sunday since the normal garage (Dunton Green?) was closed on that day, so that might explain it.

Sunday 493s came off the 477 at Orpington Station.

Yes - this led to the slightly odd situation (until the 477 finally went OPO) of a route being OPO single deck (from DG) weekday daytimes, and the evening and Sunday service was crew double deck with RMCs from Swanley (with Eastbourne Regent Vs in place of RMCs for a while and latterly crew AN.) RMC picture here and Regent V here.

I've never quite disentangled a timetable, but assume that DG garage journeys and crew reliefs involved buses and their drivers changing between 431 group and 493 at Orpington.

ETA - 493 only became a LRT route at some point in the 80s - I think (but can't find reference) it was at the same time as the first wave of Orpington R routes in 1986. The red / green bus boundary didn't quite match the 1960s GLC boundary, which made ever less sense when the GLC got control of London Transport. Other than tram / trolleybus replacement route 96, the red bus boundary was pretty much Bexleyheath in north kent until the Bexleybus scheme replaced most of the LC routes with blue buses...

A bus certainly used to terminate there, and the bus stop post (minus flag) was there for years afterwards. But I can't remember whether it was the 477 or 493.

1974 timetable only shows a few Monday to Friday 477s (including school day only journeys) to Kelvin Parade. Other routes quite probably went there in earlier years. Knowing LT, I'm not sure whether this was intended for passenger convenience or to give buses somewhere other than the (then smaller) space at Orpington Station to turn / stand at peak times while getting them past the end of the road for passengers transferring to / from trains. Or possibly for staff going to / from work at the Orpington council (as it was before 1965) offices just west of the railway bridge on Crofton Road. The distance to the nearest 61 / 94 stop on Crofton Road is only about 200 yards, and not sure that the idea of 'socially necessary' services of a few buses a day in to estates that far from a bus route was all that strong in the 60s. Clearly some passengers used these journeys though (photo on Flickr here)

and the timetables for Grays were in there, presumably to make the book a bit fatter!

I am fairly sure I have read somewhere that Grays garage came under the South East area (or division or whatever it was called) in LT's Country bus / LCBS management structure - possibly for traffic not engineering purposes or vice versa (LT being LT, the areas didn't quite match.) GY regularly provided buses and crews for extras for Biggin Hill Air Show and Brands Hatch.

 

[Busaholic]

Yes - this led to the slightly odd situation (until the 477 finally went OPO) of a route being OPO single deck (from DG) weekday daytimes, and the evening and Sunday service was crew double deck with RMCs from Swanley (with Eastbourne Regent Vs in place of RMCs for a while and latterly crew AN.) RMC picture here and Regent V here.

I've never quite disentangled a timetable, but assume that DG garage journeys and crew reliefs involved buses and their drivers changing between 431 group and 493 at Orpington.

ETA - 493 only became a LRT route at some point in the 80s - I think (but can't find reference) it was at the same time as the first wave of Orpington R routes in 1986. The red / green bus boundary didn't quite match the 1960s GLC boundary, which made ever less sense when the GLC got control of London Transport. Other than tram / trolleybus replacement route 96, the red bus boundary was pretty much Bexleyheath in north kent until the Bexleybus scheme replaced most of the LC routes with blue buses...



1974 timetable only shows a few Monday to Friday 477s (including school day only journeys) to Kelvin Parade. Other routes quite probably went there in earlier years. Knowing LT, I'm not sure whether this was intended for passenger convenience or to give buses somewhere other than the (then smaller) space at Orpington Station to turn / stand at peak times while getting them past the end of the road for passengers transferring to / from trains. Or possibly for staff going to / from work at the Orpington council (as it was before 1965) offices just west of the railway bridge on Crofton Road. The distance to the nearest 61 / 94 stop on Crofton Road is only about 200 yards, and not sure that the idea of 'socially necessary' services of a few buses a day in to estates that far from a bus route was all that strong in the 60s. Clearly some passengers used these journeys though (photo on Flickr here)



I am fairly sure I have read somewhere that Grays garage came under the South East area (or division or whatever it was called) in LT's Country bus / LCBS management structure - possibly for traffic not engineering purposes or vice versa (LT being LT, the areas didn't quite match.) GY regularly provided buses and crews for extras for Biggin Hill Air Show and Brands Hatch.

I believe Northfleet had some responsibility for Grays, but whether for traffic or engineering, or possibly both, I'm not sure. Grays certainly worked the Dartford Tunnel services 300 and 399, and the special cyclist buses. There was a distinct gap in the country area between Epping/Ongar/Brentwood and other green bus (as distinct from Green Line) services. South of Epping was served by red bus 250, south of Chipping Ongar by red bus 175 and south of Brentwood by red bus 247. Buses from Grays went nowhere near those places, other than Brentwood, and that was still Eastern National territory. The Green Line 724 slightly muddied the waters for a while by extending to Romford, but that incursion was quickly repulsed, and not just for the 'traffic' reasons of the official version!

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

I believe Northfleet had some responsibility for Grays, but whether for traffic or engineering, or possibly both, I'm not sure. Grays certainly worked the Dartford Tunnel services 300 and 399, and the special cyclist buses. There was a distinct gap in the country area between Epping/Ongar/Brentwood and other green bus (as distinct from Green Line) services. South of Epping was served by red bus 250, south of Chipping Ongar by red bus 175 and south of Brentwood by red bus 247. Buses from Grays went nowhere near those places, other than Brentwood, and that was still Eastern National territory. The Green Line 724 slightly muddied the waters for a while by extending to Romford, but that incursion was quickly repulsed, and not just for the 'traffic' reasons of the official version!

Could the reason for the green bus gap be because of Epping Forest? certainly during the early days of LGOC motorbuses Epping Forest and environs were a major day trip destination for Londoners... this would account for the red buses poking out into what should've been green bus territory

 

[Class45]

Surely the fact that the Luton operations of London Country was more symptomatic of NBC's failure to grasp the nettle of company boundaries? The London Country "monopoly" was an anachronism from the formation of the LTPB in 1933 giving London Transport and it's agents {whatever that was meant to mean} monopoly rights over routes south of Luton. Surely with the country operations being moved to the NBC they were now in common ownership with UCOC and it would have made more sense for the Luton operations being amalgamated under one company. Certainly over the years many of the former LC routes in Luton passed to UCOC {eg 360 becoming UC6, 364/A becoming UC43, 88, part 63/64}. Certainly the Park St W premises of LC in Luton were cramped and unfit for purpose and were closed IIRC in 1976 when UCOC reorganised and rationalised it's services in Luton. It would have made much more sense at that time if, instead of transfering operations to St Albans the LC workings from Luton had passed to UC.. ok so it would've meant a lot of joint working, but it seemed to work in other areas!

Some of the rural London Country routes from Luton were taken over by Court Line some time around 1970 and were then passed to United Counties when Court Line went bankrupt a few years later. As far as I remember that just left the 321, 360, a route to Welwyn Garden City ( 366? ) and the Green Line routes being operated from Luton. I remember the 360 to Caddington being operated by a single RT which shuttled back and forth every 30 minutes. United counties took over the 360 when the Park Street West garage closed and combined it with another route to Warden Hill on the north side of Luton to create the 6 route.

 

[Busaholic]

I've just dug out my copy of 'Country Buses Volume 2 1950 to 1959' by Laurie Akehurst, and was reminded of what an excellent book it is, with a myriad of interesting black & white (and no worse for that!) photos as well as all the info from that decade on LT's green buses.

Pertinent to this thread are the following:-
The 'winter programme' that took effect on 29th October 1958 included Route 854 Orpington (Kelvin Parade or Station) to Chelsfield Station (circular in both directions) altered to operate Chelsfield Stational -Sevenoaks Road-Orpington Station-Ramsden Estate (Petton Grove). Certain journeys continued to run via Orpington By-Pass and projection to Green St Green. There is a photo of an RT on the 854 at Orpington Station, fully blinded, with RAMSDEN ESTATE destination.
The same winter programme included the withdrawal of the 479 Farningham to Dartford via Horton Kirby and Darenth, again accompanied by a photo, of a GS with the caption revealing it was Swanley's only GS route and was an indirect victim of the disastrous bus strike of that year.

Now to some photos-
1) Lovely evocative one of a new RT on the 401 somewhere in Swanley in December 1950 with all passengers (male and middle-aged) attempting to push the bus on a snowbound road where it has slid and narrowly avoided a telegraph pole! The bus is bound for Upper Belvedere and has a five line via blind. but only for the Swanley to UB section.
2) A loaned RT standing outside Dartford Garage with destination blind 486 CRAYFORD NESS. Apparently the practice of loaned RTs at DT was so widespread that, as these duties often included several routes, special blinds were produced for destinations front and back with the route number incorporated and all other blinds were blank.
3) Another RT on the 486, fully blinded, destination Upper Belvedere, caption said the 'main route' ran between there and the Fleet Estate in Dartford, implying there were other sections covered by that number.

I must just mention another photo too, of an RT on the 480 going to Gravesend, Denton, outside Vickers Works in Crayford at shift-end time, and with a line of trolleybuses heading towards Bexleyheath. What caught my attention was the last trolleybus in the line-up, a 698 blinded CRAYFORD, with Vickers Works in smaller upper case underneath. If I knew any 698s were extended from their normal Woolwich to Bexleyheath via Erith routeing, then I'd forgotten it. It was certainly not on bus maps of the period, nor did I ever see one on my numerous trolleybus watches at Woolwich.

 

[MotCO]

The 'winter programme' that took effect on 29th October 1958 included Route 854 Orpington (Kelvin Parade or Station) to Chelsfield Station (circular in both directions) altered to operate Chelsfield Stational -Sevenoaks Road-Orpington Station-Ramsden Estate (Petton Grove). Certain journeys continued to run via Orpington By-Pass and projection to Green St Green. There is a photo of an RT on the 854 at Orpington Station, fully blinded, with RAMSDEN ESTATE destination.

The route was recreated in 2015 - [https://www.flickr.com/photos/68359129@N02/20633760969/in/dateposted/]

 

[CatfordCat]

A loaned RT standing outside Dartford Garage with destination blind 486 CRAYFORD NESS. Apparently the practice of loaned RTs at DT was so widespread that, as these duties often included several routes, special blinds were produced for destinations front and back with the route number incorporated and all other blinds were blank.

I've seen an alternative explanation to this sort of display - not loaning of buses, but more that some buses worked quite a lot of different works / school journeys on different route numbers in a short space of time, so this style of blind display was used so the crew didn't have to change 7 blinds (on an RT - and the canopy blind involved climbing up on the front wing) in a quick turn round. There may have been a union agreement that if stand time was less than X minutes then special blinds would apply.

Some Stevenage routes did this - this example is a mess with the bus showing both 303 and 303C - would have been better to leave the rear / side number blinds blank and just rely on the rear destination.

And it's possible at some garages that if they had included a full set of displays for every obscure works / school route on the blinds, they would not have fitted on the rollers.

Although not sure I want to argue with Laurie Akehurst if he says loaning was the reason

If I knew any 698s were extended from their normal Woolwich to Bexleyheath via Erith routeing, then I'd forgotten it. It was certainly not on bus maps of the period, nor did I ever see one on my numerous trolleybus watches at Woolwich.

London trolleybuses are beyond my personal memory, but the tram / trolleybus section of LT followed LCC Tramways practice of being rather more flexible than LGOC / Central buses, and a number of works journeys (and all manner of odd workings early mornings on Sundays when the nighters didn't run) went 'off route' in some cases quite some distance - sometimes showing 'EX' but more often showing their normal route number. There's more about this sort of thing in the Capital Transport book 'London Trolleybus Routes' by Hugh Taylor.

 

[Busaholic]

I've seen an alternative explanation to this sort of display - not loaning of buses, but more that some buses worked quite a lot of different works / school journeys on different route numbers in a short space of time, so this style of blind display was used so the crew didn't have to change 7 blinds (on an RT - and the canopy blind involved climbing up on the front wing) in a quick turn round. There may have been a union agreement that if stand time was less than X minutes then special blinds would apply.

Some Stevenage routes did this - this example is a mess with the bus showing both 303 and 303C - would have been better to leave the rear / side number blinds blank and just rely on the rear destination.

And it's possible at some garages that if they had included a full set of displays for every obscure works / school route on the blinds, they would not have fitted on the rollers.

Although not sure I want to argue with Laurie Akehurst if he says loaning was the reason



London trolleybuses are beyond my personal memory, but the tram / trolleybus section of LT followed LCC Tramways practice of being rather more flexible than LGOC / Central buses, and a number of works journeys (and all manner of odd workings early mornings on Sundays when the nighters didn't run) went 'off route' in some cases quite some distance - sometimes showing 'EX' but more often showing their normal route number. There's more about this sort of thing in the Capital Transport book 'London Trolleybus Routes' by Hugh Taylor.

As I was typing it, I wondered myself why only loaned buses would have this feature. I suppose what he meant was that loaned buses would only need to have their own destination blinds changed, all the other blinds could remain but be wound into the blank (black) position.

I was aware of the extra flexibility allowed to routeings of trams/trolleybuses, to an extent now being followed on Tramlink with early morning workings from Addington to Wimbledon. The ones that come to mind for me were the Christmas Day variations on the 657/667 that meant 657s went to Hammersmith rather than Shepherds Bush, vice versa for the 667, also dear little Carshalton depot's one day of the year foray off the 654's to Crystal Palace and on to London's longest trolleybus route, the 630, albeit iirc only between West Croydon and Mitcham!

 

[RT4038]

Surely the fact that the Luton operations of London Country was more symptomatic of NBC's failure to grasp the nettle of company boundaries? The London Country "monopoly" was an anachronism from the formation of the LTPB in 1933 giving London Transport and it's agents {whatever that was meant to mean} monopoly rights over routes south of Luton. Surely with the country operations being moved to the NBC they were now in common ownership with UCOC and it would have made more sense for the Luton operations being amalgamated under one company. Certainly over the years many of the former LC routes in Luton passed to UCOC {eg 360 becoming UC6, 364/A becoming UC43, 88, part 63/64}. Certainly the Park St W premises of LC in Luton were cramped and unfit for purpose and were closed IIRC in 1976 when UCOC reorganised and rationalised it's services in Luton. It would have made much more sense at that time if, instead of transfering operations to St Albans the LC workings from Luton had passed to UC.. ok so it would've meant a lot of joint working, but it seemed to work in other areas!

In the Industrial Relations climate at the time, it was simply not economically possible for ex-London Transport country routes to be allocated to neighbouring NBC companies - the pay and condition of LT staff were so much better than company employees, and it would not have been possible to have had differing pay rates within the same company. UCOC could not afford to pay staff at Stamford and Huntingdon the same as St. Albans. The [forced] purchase of Luton Corporation caused enough problems with transferred staff (and their main difference was not pay so much as the cost of the Local Government Pension Scheme) resulting in a damaging strike which resolved little. LT country pay and conditions were much better than that. Joint operations elsewhere were usually between companies employing staff under NCOI pay rates (former BET and Tilling companies]. The trade union would not have countenanced joint operation between NCOI and LT Country area staff.
The NBC could not grasp the nettle.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

In the Industrial Relations climate at the time, it was simply not economically possible for ex-London Transport country routes to be allocated to neighbouring NBC companies - the pay and condition of LT staff utwere so much better than company employees, and it would not have been possible to have had differing pay rates within the same company. UCOC could not afford to pay staff at Stamford and Huntingdon the same as St. Albans. The [forced] purchase of Luton Corporation caused enough problems with transferred staff (and their main difference was not pay so much as the cost of the Local Government Pension Scheme) resulting in a damaging strike which resolved little. LT country pay and conditions were much better than that. Joint operations elsewhere were usually between companies employing staff under NCOI pay rates (former BET and Tilling companies]. The trade union would not have countenanced joint operation between NCOI and LT Country area staff.
The NBC could not grasp the nettle.

I find that a bit odd... UCOC paid different rates at each area.... which, of course, was due to a large part of the operation having been transferred from Eastern National in 1952. Also, IIRC, UCOC's Luton depot was on a different rate to the rest of the ex EN depots due to the 1949 Luton & District Area Agreement. In effect, the majority of UCOC's operations from it's Luton depot were jointly operated with the Corporation on a 50/50 basis.

 

[RT4038]

I find that a bit odd... UCOC paid different rates at each area.... which, of course, was due to a large part of the operation having been transferred from Eastern National in 1952. Also, IIRC, UCOC's Luton depot was on a different rate to the rest of the ex EN depots due to the 1949 Luton & District Area Agreement. In effect, the majority of UCOC's operations from it's Luton depot were jointly operated with the Corporation on a 50/50 basis.

Whilst there were no doubt minor differences in EN & UC conditions, by 1970 all parts of UCOC were on the same rate. The differences between Municipal and Company busmen were already a sore point, and when the two came under common employer in Luton, feelings ran very high. The Luton & District Area Agreement pooled revenue on a 50/50 agreement in accordance with mileage run - Corporation buses had their routes and UCOC theirs - there was no 'joint' operation of the same route. Joint operation using, or transfer of, staff on LT terms and conditions to work alongside staff on UCOC terms and conditions was just not going to happen!

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Whilst there were no doubt minor differences in EN & UC conditions, by 1970 all parts of UCOC were on the same rate.

I'm sorry but I have to beg to differ... when I worked for Luton & District just after the break up of UCOC in the mid 80's Luton, Aylesbury and Hitchin depots were all on different rates to one another for "historical" reasons {the union's assertion!} and furthermore Bedford depot was on yet another pay rate. The simple truth is that UCOC never had a unified pay scale.

The Luton & District Area Agreement pooled revenue on a 50/50 agreement in accordance with mileage run - Corporation buses had their routes and UCOC theirs - there was no 'joint' operation of the same route.

That's a bit of an oversimplification of the agreement. Whilst there were no routes where both companies operated an equal share, there were routes where one company would run the majority, but the other company would have odd workings for "balancing" of the agreement.

Joint operation using, or transfer of, staff on LT terms and conditions to work alongside staff on UCOC terms and conditions was just not going to happen!

Why wouldn't joint operation work? there are many instances right across the UK where 2 companies {or 2 depots} jointly operated routes with staff on different pay and conditions. Even from Luton there was the 142-4 group... majority Bedford but supported by Luton... the 52 group {later to become 92-99} jointly operated by Luton and Hitchin or the 61 Luton supported by Aylesbury.

Of course to say that LC staff working jointly operated services with other NBC companies wouldn't have worked due to union resistance ignores the jointly operated services with Thames Valley, Oxford- South Midland and others.

 

[RT4038]

I'm sorry but I have to beg to differ... when I worked for Luton & District just after the break up of UCOC in the mid 80's Luton, Aylesbury and Hitchin depots were all on different rates to one another for "historical" reasons {the union's assertion!} and furthermore Bedford depot was on yet another pay rate. The simple truth is that UCOC never had a unified pay scale.


That's a bit of an oversimplification of the agreement. Whilst there were no routes where both companies operated an equal share, there were routes where one company would run the majority, but the other company would have odd workings for "balancing" of the agreement.



Why wouldn't joint operation work? there are many instances right across the UK where 2 companies {or 2 depots} jointly operated routes with staff on different pay and conditions. Even from Luton there was the 142-4 group... majority Bedford but supported by Luton... the 52 group {later to become 92-99} jointly operated by Luton and Hitchin or the 61 Luton supported by Aylesbury.

Of course to say that LC staff working jointly operated services with other NBC companies wouldn't have worked due to union resistance ignores the jointly operated services with Thames Valley, Oxford- South Midland and others.

A lot of water had passed under the bridge between the LT/LCBS split in 1970 and you working in Luton 15 years later! Luton Depot got a higher rate as a direct result of the Corporation takeover [presumably the 'historical' reasons you mention] and Bedford as the result of a prolonged strike and productivity agreement round about 1982. All sorts of other issues had come and gone too.

I never said that Joint operation would not work - UCOC had plenty of instances (131 Bedford-Oxford, 121 Bletchley-Oxford, 428 Bedford-Cambridge, 266 Kettering-Peterborough, 171 Huntingdon-Ely for instance), but these were all NCOI [National Council for the Omnibus Industry] companies and paid the same or similar pay rates. It is easy to forget (or never have known) the nationwide pay agreements prior to the Thatcher/deregulation/privatisation era. Yes there may be some fairly minor differences in conditions, and in some cases pay rates due to historical reasons, but by and large they were the same. As you point out, UCOC had plenty of examples of routes jointly worked by more than one depot (which may or may not have had minor pay & condition differences), but the staff would have grown up with these minor differences and fully understand the reasons for them. It was also very rare at that time for any allocation fluctuation beyond odd journeys on a given route group.

Contrast this with the situation of the LT country area if it had not been split to LCBS, but had been broken up and allocated to surrounding NBC concerns in 1970. Suddenly UCOC would have in its midst a fairly large operation with staff on far superior pay and conditions. This would have been untenable on the Industrial Relations front. It is unsurprising that the NBC did not do this. If some joint operation was contemplated (i.e. work previously run by staff on LT pay and conditions being transferred to staff on UCOC conditions - say the 301 or 321), this just would not have happened. The Trade Union at the time would not have permitted it.

I know that later on the 360 did pass from LCBS to UCOC, but this was (a) a takeover, not joint operation, (b) after most of the staff on LT conditions (as opposed to new staff taken on LCBS conditions) had left or transferred elsewhere and (c) NCOI rates had become a lot better , and a pension scheme introduced in 1973. Ironically the 337/364 services, withdrawn by LCBS in 1971 did (indirectly) come to UCOC, no doubt at a higher pay rate than enjoyed by Court Line/Jeyson drivers. In 1979? a 'joint' service (no. 44) was introduced between Luton and Stevenage via Kimpton 3 days per week, with one bus of each company. However this was new work, and (b) and (c) above applied.

London Transport did have a few examples of joint working (in Slough Route 407 and in High Wycombe Route 326) but these were quite long standing, and had separate route numbers. In the later 70s there were co-ordinated timetables with Oxford/South Midland, not quite 'joint' working, but by then pay and conditions had grown much closer anyway. The fact that there were isolated pockets of certain types of operation should not be taken as an implication that universal application would be possible. UCOC had its own 'joint' route with LT (359) which they withdrew from in 1964 - I think you may find that the pay issue was a factor there.

Notwithstanding the pay issue, United Counties at Luton in the 70s was in no position to take on any part of London Country. After the Corporation takeover buses had to be parked in the streets surrounding Castle Street Depot due to a shortage of space. The Corporation buses were in a poor mechanical condition, and no Corporation engineering staff transferred to UCOC at that time. The Eastern Area Docking shop was at Bedford, and the workload nearly took down the whole company. This was aside of the serious staff shortage at Luton, resulting in a peak of 20% lost mileage at one period. I know LCBS had similar problems on both fronts, but I bet in 1970 UCOC management didn't want a fleet of elderly alien vehicles, more driver and conductor shifts and Industrial Relations problems to add to their woes. Same could be said about Thames Valley I should think.

 

[frodshamfella]

I've just dug out my copy of 'Country Buses Volume 2 1950 to 1959' by Laurie Akehurst, and was reminded of what an excellent book it is, with a myriad of interesting black & white (and no worse for that!) photos as well as all the info from that decade on LT's green buses.

Pertinent to this thread are the following:-
The 'winter programme' that took effect on 29th October 1958 included Route 854 Orpington (Kelvin Parade or Station) to Chelsfield Station (circular in both directions) altered to operate Chelsfield Stational -Sevenoaks Road-Orpington Station-Ramsden Estate (Petton Grove). Certain journeys continued to run via Orpington By-Pass and projection to Green St Green. There is a photo of an RT on the 854 at Orpington Station, fully blinded, with RAMSDEN ESTATE destination.
The same winter programme included the withdrawal of the 479 Farningham to Dartford via Horton Kirby and Darenth, again accompanied by a photo, of a GS with the caption revealing it was Swanley's only GS route and was an indirect victim of the disastrous bus strike of that year.

Now to some photos-
1) Lovely evocative one of a new RT on the 401 somewhere in Swanley in December 1950 with all passengers (male and middle-aged) attempting to push the bus on a snowbound road where it has slid and narrowly avoided a telegraph pole! The bus is bound for Upper Belvedere and has a five line via blind. but only for the Swanley to UB section.
2) A loaned RT standing outside Dartford Garage with destination blind 486 CRAYFORD NESS. Apparently the practice of loaned RTs at DT was so widespread that, as these duties often included several routes, special blinds were produced for destinations front and back with the route number incorporated and all other blinds were blank.
3) Another RT on the 486, fully blinded, destination Upper Belvedere, caption said the 'main route' ran between there and the Fleet Estate in Dartford, implying there were other sections covered by that number.

I must just mention another photo too, of an RT on the 480 going to Gravesend, Denton, outside Vickers Works in Crayford at shift-end time, and with a line of trolleybuses heading towards Bexleyheath. What caught my attention was the last trolleybus in the line-up, a 698 blinded CRAYFORD, with Vickers Works in smaller upper case underneath. If I knew any 698s were extended from their normal Woolwich to Bexleyheath via Erith routeing, then I'd forgotten it. It was certainly not on bus maps of the period, nor did I ever see one on my numerous trolleybus watches at Woolwich.

Why was Kelvin Parade used in Orpington, I think the 477 went there on some journeys and from memory a number of other routes was it just for space reasons? Orpington Station seemed a more natural terminus.

 

[Typhoon]

What caught my attention was the last trolleybus in the line-up, a 698 blinded CRAYFORD, with Vickers Works in smaller upper case underneath. If I knew any 698s were extended from their normal Woolwich to Bexleyheath via Erith routeing, then I'd forgotten it. It was certainly not on bus maps of the period, nor did I ever see one on my numerous trolleybus watches at Woolwich.

I was only advised to this following an alert to post #118.
Looking through 'Woolwich and Dartford Trolleybuses' by Robert J Harley (Middleton Press) there is a photograph (no. 61) captioned

The trolley on the left has just used the Princes Road reverser, which was constructed in 1942, and it is now waiting to take employees from the nearby Vickers Works. Note that the vehicle is rostered on a route 698 special working to Erith.

So it looks like it was a works journey that just followed part of the 698 route - Vickers via 696 to Bexleyheath then 698 to Erith so you wouldn't have seen it; not on bus map as confuses the issue and perhaps a handful (even one) a day. Other journeys may have extended but nothing in the book. I can't read the intermediate stops, but the final destination is given as 'Erith', presumably Walnut Tree Road.

 

[Busaholic]

I was only advised to this following an alert to post #118.
Looking through 'Woolwich and Dartford Trolleybuses' by Robert J Harley (Middleton Press) there is a photograph (no. 61) captioned So it looks like it was a works journey that just followed part of the 698 route - Vickers via 696 to Bexleyheath then 698 to Erith so you wouldn't have seen it; not on bus map as confuses the issue and perhaps a handful (even one) a day. Other journeys may have extended but nothing in the book. I can't read the intermediate stops, but the final destination is given as 'Erith', presumably Walnut Tree Road.

I'd imagine there was a reverse a.m. working. I've got a few relatively obscure London trolleybus books, but getting a look at them is easier said than done, and there's no guarantee there'd be any more info anyway but I'll have a go at finding out what I can.