Merseyrail Guard on Trial (Report now out)

[TDK]

Mersey Rail were aware of unauthorized dispatch procedures but did nothing about it? Why are they not brought up on charges?

Your evidence and source on that statement?

 

[asylumxl]

Your evidence and source on that statement?

I remember it being mentioned in some document, perhaps the initial RAIB report?

 

[ralphchadkirk]

None of which removed his duty of care.

He's guilty, the court said so and now the appeal has agreed.

Fortunately, your efforts to smear the poor (dead) victim will not change that.

Also from what I remember from quality shows as Interceptors, consuming illegal drugs is not illegal, nor is being under the influence of them. Being in possession of them is, as is dealing (tut tut Tulisa, allegedly) or driving under the influence etc etc

I can't agree with this. This is a day for reminding rail staff of their roles and responsibilities rather than trying to tarnish the memory of a young lady who was killed because of negligence on the part of the guard.

Quite. He gave the ding ding and away while she was leaning against the train. It may just have been a momentary lapse of concentration, but we all must pay the price for a mistake we make. Sadly McGee will pay for it with a 5yr sentence.

We are all responsible for own actions, traincrew are no exception.

Couldn't agree more with the above points. The guard has a duty of care to passengers. Giving the right away with someone leaning against the train is not safe and unfortunately for all involved the ultimate price was paid. Now, McGee has the face the consequences of his negligence.

On another note, I find it rather amusing that all the people who want tougher sentencing are saying this sentence is too tough! The guard was responsible for the death of a passenger through his negligence. Part of his sentence will be deterrence.

 

[GB]

Your evidence and source on that statement?

It was in the raib report.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Regardless of whos fault it was (in my opinion both) and the underlying reasons A young girl has died and a member of Traincrews life destroyed, There are no winners just losers and I feel it is time now the appeal has ended that this should used as a reminder to all whether you are staff like myself or out on the p*ss and having fun. Everyones actions have consequences and there is always a price to pay.

 

[Flamingo]

I can't help wondering if it had been a 56 year old wino, (equally drunk and incapable due to their own actions), who had gone under the train would there have been the same trial, sentence, and if it comes to it, level of indignation at the guards mistake by posters on here?

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I can't help wondering if it had been a 56 year old wino, (equally drunk and incapable due to their own actions), who had gone under the train would there have been the same trial, sentence, and if it comes to it, level of indignation at the guards mistake by posters on here?

My opinion certainly wouldn't be changed.

 

[maniacmartin]

On another note, I find it rather amusing that all the people who want tougher sentencing are saying this sentence is too tough!

What I want is consistent sentencing. i.e. a more serious crime will carry a tougher sentence than a less serious one.

 

[A-driver]

There are some very sick people on here who seem to be getting a great kick out of knowing a railway worker has been sentenced for this.

This was a fairly unique incident with numerous factors. Yes the guard was in the wrong but that alone didn't cause the accident. There are other factors which havnt been properly addressed on this thread or by the courts.

Can this thread not be locked now? I hope all those 'high and mighty' anti rail staff posters on here who come across as incredibly sick individuals (i mainly mean thise who have come on in the last 24 hours posting bery unhelpfully and disgustingly along the lines of 'im glad he lost his appeal, he got what he deserved') who seem to be loving the sentence given to this individual one day find themselves in court over actions performed at their jobs. You have no idea what you are talking about with this, you are relying on reading stuff online and in the press. Those of us who deal with these situations every day can see exactly what happened here.

Sorry but you people have no right to come on here and shout about how happy you are he has lost his appeal. I don't think the guilty verdict was necessarily wrong but can see there was a lot more to this incident than you armchair experts think.

Now move on and grow up. A girl died here-yes, died. That means her family and friends lives have also been turned upside down. A guard who was a victim of several factors has also paid a high price for his mis-judgment of the situation and that will have a bad effect in his life and that of his families. What isn't needed is you lot coming on here spouting such rubbish.

Some members on here should quite frankly be ashamed of themselves. Very sick people on here at the moment.

As I say, grow up.

 

[rebmcr]

Regardless of whos fault it was (in my opinion both) and the underlying reasons A young girl has died and a member of Traincrews life destroyed, There are no winners just losers and I feel it is time now the appeal has ended that this should used as a reminder to all whether you are staff like myself or out on the p*ss and having fun. Everyones actions have consequences and there is always a price to pay.

This sums it up IMO.

 

[maniacmartin]

I think you're reading into the above posts perhaps a bit too much A-driver. I don't detect anyone "getting a great kick out of [this]". Numerous posters in the previous 10 pages have commented that this is a complex situation with multiple parties at fault.

 

[A-driver]

I think you're reading into the above posts perhaps a bit too much A-driver. I don't detect anyone "getting a great kick out of [this]". Numerous posters in the previous 10 pages have commented that this is a complex situation with multiple parties at fault.

So the people posting nothing more than 'I don't change my opinion' and ' I'm glad he lost his appeal as he is guilty of killing her' are adding what to the thread exactly? And why take the time to post that? It is disgusting, distasteful and very, very sick.

 

[GB]

<snip>
Can this thread not be locked now?

If all people are going to do is go off on a rant and start calling other members "sick" then yes, perhaps the thread should be locked.

 

[Oswyntail]

So the people posting nothing more than 'I don't change my opinion' and ' I'm glad he lost his appeal as he is guilty of killing her' are adding what to the thread exactly? And why take the time to post that? It is disgusting, distasteful and very, very sick.

As has been written, frequently, this is a very sad case for all concerned, and, like every similar case, has massive ripples spreading in unexpected places. However, as there has been an appeal, and hence a continuing questioning of the case, it is quite appropriate for members here to express that they agree or not, after the re-examination. But to criticise the posters as being "very, very sick" is just completely over the top, and itself highly offensive. I think most people here are human enough to recognise the human cost - and this does not change because one of those affected worked in the rail industry.

 

[A-driver]

Well I stick by what I have said.

I would never do the same in similar circumstances on other industries forums.

And, no. It is not appropriate for people to express if they agree or not with the appeal outcome.

As I say, its easy to look at this with the info avaliable online and in the papers etc. Its entirely different when you look at it with experience knowing just how these kinda of things happen.

I have no issue with people adding to the discussion, its those who just appear to be 'gloating' as I have already said that I don't agree with.

 

[asylumxl]

It just seems to me like the poor guy is a scapegoat for a faulty system which is far too obsessed with cutting delay minutes and thus cutting costs.

Merseyrail were well aware of this unofficial dispatch procedure yet chose to do nothing about it. Furthermore there were/are bye-laws in place to prevent such people (who are a danger to themselves and others) from accessing the railway system, yet they were and still aren't enforced.

Unfortunately it seems they can't possibly admit the system is at fault/negligent and pin the blame on the lowest denominator.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

There are some very sick people on here who seem to be getting a great kick out of knowing a railway worker has been sentenced for this.

I get no kick out of people being sent to prison. That doesn't mean I don't agree with the court's decision. Railway worker or no railway worker.

This was a fairly unique incident with numerous factors. Yes the guard was in the wrong but that alone didn't cause the accident. There are other factors which havnt been properly addressed on this thread or by the courts.

Yes, it was unique. And yes, there were a number of contributing factors. Clearly the guard involved feels that the courts did not adequately address those factors, and the courts disagree. I know what my opinion is.

Can this thread not be locked now? I hope all those 'high and mighty' anti rail staff posters on here who come across as incredibly sick individuals (i mainly mean thise who have come on in the last 24 hours posting bery unhelpfully and disgustingly along the lines of 'im glad he lost his appeal, he got what he deserved') who seem to be loving the sentence given to this individual

See above. I have nothing against railway staff, and I'm not glad someone else is going to prison. However, I do believe that ultimately the guard is responsible for the safety of the passengers and the train. The buck has to stop somewhere. We don't know what the outcome would have been if things had turned out differently, however the fact remains that the guard gave the proceed signal with someone leaning against his train.

one day find themselves in court over actions performed at their jobs. You have no idea what you are talking about with this, you are relying on reading stuff online and in the press. Those of us who deal with these situations every day can see exactly what happened here.

If I do something wrong then I will be investigated. When I register, a panel will investigate me and if they so decide, they can prevent me from working in that position again. If I am criminally negligent then I would expect to find myself in court. I hope never to be in that situation, and I hope that others never find themselves in that situation. However it's only by your own actions that you get there.

Sorry but you people have no right to come on here and shout about how happy you are he has lost his appeal. I don't think the guilty verdict was necessarily wrong but can see there was a lot more to this incident than you armchair experts think.

Perhaps there is more to this incident. Perhaps the courts haven't done their job properly, and perhaps an innocent man is in prison. All are possibilities. However, everyone has the right to express their opinion. You cannot stop that, and indeed, you seem to be expressing your own opinion on the matter.

Now move on and grow up. A girl died here-yes, died. That means her family and friends lives have also been turned upside down. A guard who was a victim of several factors has also paid a high price for his mis-judgment of the situation and that will have a bad effect in his life and that of his families.

I couldn't agree more.

What isn't needed is you lot coming on here spouting such rubbish.

Some members on here should quite frankly be ashamed of themselves. Very sick people on here at the moment.

As I say, grow up.

What's "sick" about it? Am I glad someone has died and someone has gone to prison? Of course not. However I feel that justice has been done here.

Well I stick by what I have said.

Admirable, I'm sure.

I would never do the same in similar circumstances on other industries forums.

You mean you never hear of a case on the telly and comment on whether you think it is right or wrong? What a lot of rubbish.

And, no. It is not appropriate for people to express if they agree or not with the appeal outcome.

It's entirely appropriate, and something that your colleagues on another site seem to be doing right now. Only they're saying they disagree with it. Are they being inappropriate and "sick" as well.

I have no issue with people adding to the discussion, its those who just appear to be 'gloating' as I have already said that I don't agree with.

Yet you do seem to have a problem with it, as you have stated in the very same post that you would never do the same, and that it's sick, and inappropriate.

 

[A-driver]

It just seems to me like the poor guy is a scapegoat for a faulty system which is far too obsessed with cutting delay minutes and thus cutting costs.

Merseyrail were well aware of this unofficial dispatch procedure yet chose to do nothing about it. Furthermore there were/are bye-laws in place to prevent such people (who are a danger to themselves and others) from accessing the railway system, yet they were and still aren't enforced.

Unfortunately it seems they can't possibly admit the system is at fault/negligent and pin the blame on the lowest denominator.

Well I'm not going to get drawn into more discussion on this but I don't disagree with anything you say there.

And what is more important is that no changes have been made since.

There was an incident discussed on here a while ago and I'm not going into specifics but it involved a buggy getting stuck in doors and the train driver apparently being unaware of this. On investigation it was found that the driver was unaware of this-in the dark there was a shadowy 'blind spot' in the mirror and drivers wernt aware that they couldn't see the area properly. This has been identified and what has been done to fix the problem ? Nothing. A note went up a while ago basically admitting that a set of doors has been invisible to monitors at a station for the last 6 months. We had no idea as you can't tell if you can see all the doors on monitors,its almost impossible. What is being done to fix it apart from the note? Nothing!

 

[Mex]

So say for instance, run two people over, killed them and fled the scene driving while disqualified? 10.5 years.

Let's not get overly-emotional here. Who's to say what really happened that day? Were the police to blame for provoking him into a chase? What were those 2 people doing in the middle of the road anyway while there was a police chase in progress?

The case is not as clear-cut as the 2-wheeled lynch mob likes to make out.

 

[A-driver]

You mean you never hear of a case on the telly and comment on whether you think it is right or wrong? What a lot of rubbish..

I'm not going to answer all your points as I can't be bothered to be honest. But I still stick to what I said.

As for that one point I have quoted though, not rubbish at all. I don't comment on things like that which I don't know the full facts of and by full facts I don't mean believing what the media report. I doubt in alone in that either

 

[455driver]

Everyones actions have consequences and there is always a price to pay.

Except the people who allowed her to get drunk, or the ones that supplied her the illegal drugs, or her (supposed) friends who allowed her to get off at the wrong stop twice, or her parents that think her actions on that night were "normal" for a girl of her age!

They are all free to carry on with their lives but Chris has been made a scapegoat, while he does bear some responsibility for this incident he certainly didnt cause it and a lot of other people could have prevented it from happening in the first place, but lets just blame it on the last link in the chain shall we!

My trains going to be f**king late tonight because I am not going to let anyone I consider seriously under the influence on it, now where are those Byelaw numbers I need!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I get no kick out of people being sent to prison. That doesn't mean I don't agree with the court's decision. Railway worker or no railway worker.

So when one of your lot is in court because some drunk/drugged up person died while in their care you wil be sticking the knife in will you?

No, didnt think so!

 

[Chrisgr31]

Regardless of whos fault it was (in my opinion both) and the underlying reasons A young girl has died and a member of Traincrews life destroyed, There are no winners just losers and I feel it is time now the appeal has ended that this should used as a reminder to all whether you are staff like myself or out on the p*ss and having fun. Everyones actions have consequences and there is always a price to pay.

It will be interesting to see if anything changes as a result of the outcome of this appeal. I suspect the reality of the situation is that if this was a civil case for compensation (and whats the betting theres one of those around the corner) then the compensation would be reduced considerably because the girl was under the influence of drugs and alcohol and therefore in part contriubted (arguably) to events.

I wouldn't be surprised if there are not cases every day where a train leaves with someone leaning or pretending to lean against it, and the driver/guard/dispatcher has to take a decision as to whether that person will move when the train moves or not.

Now of course the driver/guard/dispatcher could move to the position of the person on the train and ask them to move but the chances are that by the time they have gone back to their dispatch position that person will be leaning against the train again in order to wind up the rail crew.

So in these circumstances the only solution is for the rail crew to call up the police or additional staff and of course by the time they arrive the offenders will have run away.

So all that will have happened is large amounts of staff time will have been wasted, let alone the time of those passengers on the train.

The reality in this case is the guard shouldn't have signalled the train to depart, and the girl shouldn't have got herself in to the state she was in and been in the position she was in.

The outcome being the post I have quoted. The only surprise to me as a passenger is that it it doesn't happen more often and part of that will be by luck.

 

[GB]

Except the people who allowed her to get drunk, or the ones that supplied her the illegal drugs, or her (supposed) friends who allowed her to get off at the wrong stop twice, or her parents that think her actions on that night were "normal" for a girl of her age!

They are all free to carry on with their lives but Chris has been made a scapegoat, while he does bear some responsibility for this incident he certainly didnt cause it and a lot of other people could have prevented it from happening in the first place, but lets just blame it on the last link in the chain shall we!

Free to carry on with their lives? Her friends will have to live with that they have done (or not done) for quite a while yet, and her family will have to live with it all for the rest of their lives. While I do not agree with the families opinion that the girls behavior was normal and nor do I agree with the length or type of sentence, to suggest they have got away scot-free is not correct. Their consequence is the loss of a friend and family member.

 

[455driver]

Who said-

to suggest they have got away scot-free is not correct

I didnt so why quote me?

What I did say is that they are free to carry on with their lives, which they are (can they nip down the shop/pub etc?), okay they will have to live with their actions/inactions from that day but I am sure they will manage considering "the guilty party" is serving a jail term which obviously means they did nothing wrong!

 

[RichmondCommu]

They are all free to carry on with their lives but Chris has been made a scapegoat, while he does bear some responsibility for this incident he certainly didnt cause it and a lot of other people could have prevented it from happening in the first place, but lets just blame it on the last link in the chain shall we!

What do you mean he didn't cause it? If he hadn't allowed the train to depart the girl would still be alive and he wouldn't be in prison. As for all those that are free to continue with their lives (including the guard when he gets out) what about the poor girl?

 

[asylumxl]

What do you mean he didn't cause it? If he hadn't allowed the train to depart the girl would still be alive and he wouldn't be in prison. As for all those that are free to continue with their lives (including the guard when he gets out) what about the poor girl?

To be honest I think this is a bit of a personal topic for you as if I remember you had a thread about an incident your daughter got involved in. There are definitely two sides to this coin but I don't think you're looking at it in a balanced way. Many points can be equally valid, as at the end of the day many factors caused the incident.

 

[Gareth]

In the end, yes the girl shouldn't have gotten herself into the state she was in but that doesn't absolve the guard from his actions or diminish his responsibility.

It's not that I don't have any empathy for the guard in some ways and I'm not sure about the length of the prison sentence but none of that precludes what I said in the former sentence.

 

[A-driver]

What do you mean he didn't cause it? If he hadn't allowed the train to depart the girl would still be alive and he wouldn't be in prison. As for all those that are free to continue with their lives (including the guard when he gets out) what about the poor girl?

So what if she had been clear but on the platform when the guard gave 2 and then she lent up on the train between 2 on the bell and the train moving? She would still have been killed but the guard wouldn't be responsible. Therefore it is indisputable that the guard didn't cause it, he was the last link in the chain of events which lead to this.

Give up on this anti rail staff crusade you seem to have. You honestly can't say the guard is entirely responsible for this and that the girl isn't to blame can you?!

 

[Oswyntail]

..... Therefore it is indisputable that the guard didn't cause it, he was the last link in the chain of events which lead to this. ....

Far from indisputable. In your instance he caused it but couldn't have prevented it (therefore, probably, accidental); in the actual case he caused it and could have prevented it (by not carrying out an action). There are always a chain of contributory factors to any circumstance, but, in this case, it is only the guard, by his action, who has broken the law (except, perhaps, the drug supplier, but that is an entirely different case) and hence is punished.

 

[Matt Taylor]

And what is more important is that no changes have been made since.

That is not correct, changes have been made to the rule book in respect of train dispatch, particularly for guards.