Merseyrail legacy fleet updates (Class 507/508)

[Snow1964]

I think if much more goes wrong with 507s and 508s they'll have to just press the 777s into service with whatever working arrangements the staff are currently used to on the old stock (I think they've now had guard's panels fitted in case they need to do this) and worry about negotiating something different later.

Ultimately yes, either got to use new 777s, or if they want to do introduction at a future date, then need to go and buy spare parts and fit them to 507+508

Not being able to operate big chunks of service in meantime should (in theory) force a decision to be made one way or other.

 

[L401CJF]

I must admit over the last couple of weeks I have been on a number of units which have been "humming" once over say 40mph - a bit like a worn differential on a bus but not as loud.

Thinking about it after reading this thread it does sound like that could be to do with the worn bearings issue.

I too have noticed a step down in standards since Stadler took over, presumably because they expected them to have been scrapped a couple of years ago!

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

It would seem relatively reasonable with Stadler taking over maintenance in anticipation of their 777 fleet entering squadron service that the 507/508 fleet would be gradually run down before going for scrap and replacement - so it is quite jarring that they cannot continue to be run down indefinitely without going off a cliff edge such as this, although the expectation for a life expired fleet such as this to continue to run an intensive service indefinitely amid the lack of union acceptance of the new units certainly isn’t reasonable.

Not excusing any deficiencies in the maintenance regime, should there be any, what we certainly don’t want to experience is a hot axle box, especially not while carrying passengers, so they have perhaps done the right thing withdrawing them from service and hopefully this will add urgency to negotiations with the RMT and ASLEF.

Its a possibility but below the underframe is subject to strict requirements for maintenance to allow the fleet to run also the maintenance teams are the same and can't see them taking their eye off the ball. Furthermore the bearings are in the bogies and whilst im not sure of MerseyRails mtce arrangements most bogies are sent away for refurbishment by other TOCs to 3rd party suppliers. Also this bogie is under 313/315's and possibly 455's so seems odd the problem hasn't shown up somewhere. Im also suspicious when an issue suddenly blows up across a big population of assets and its usually associated with a step change in the environment the asset is working in or a change in inspection regime parameters.

Hopefully MerseyRail will see fit to give its a passengers a fuller explanation.

 

[OL-3944]

The upgraded power supply across the network to run the 777s is the root cause of the wheel bearing damage. The return current is electrically damaging the bearings. It’s nothing to do with the inspection regime or alleged reduced maintenance.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The upgraded power supply across the network to run the 777s is the root cause of the wheel bearing damage. The return current is electrically damaging the bearings. It’s nothing to do with the inspection regime or alleged reduced maintenance.

That's interesting...what exactly was changed, is it a higher voltage? If it's just current, surely 50x would just draw what they usually do?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

The upgraded power supply across the network to run the 777s is the root cause of the wheel bearing damage. The return current is electrically damaging the bearings. It’s nothing to do with the inspection regime or alleged reduced maintenance.

Interesting and accords with my view that it was either working environment or inspection regime and nothing to do with maintenance. I did wonder about power supply infrastructure works but this bogie design ran perfectly satisfactory across the former Southern Region 750V DC third rail system which was much higher powered. The reinforced power system will result in higher mean currents available at the train but as the sectional running times haven't been changed drivers wouldn't need to exploit the capability. All the wheel bearings have bogies brushes to shunt the return current to avoid pitting of the wheel bearings so have they not kept an eye on these potentially wearing faster than historically and they've been caught out.

 

[Liverpool 507]

What happened is Stadler took over the maintenance of the fleet and (in my opinion) have neglected to take good care of them, in the thinking that they would have been withdrawn years ago. Just my opinion - no basis or evidence to that, but I have noticed a steep downward spiral in condition of the units since they took over the maintenance from in house Merseyrail staff.

Yes I agree. Cleanliness went out the window straight away. With white floors, I hope they look after the 777s.

 

[507 001]

They should have fitted the new ones with GOPs right from the get go, got them in traffic and *then* had the argument about DOO. The whole thing has been a mismanaged farce right from day 1.

Ordering trains with a single
mode of operation on a 21st century railway is sheer stupidity, and I say that as somebody completely opposed to DOO passenger trains. Even the utter mess that is Northern had the foresight to have the 195s and 331s fitted with GOPs.

 

[Liverpool 507]

They should have fitted the new ones with GOPs right from the get go, got them in traffic and *then* had the argument about DOO. The whole thing has been a mismanaged farce right from day 1.

Ordering trains with a single
mode of operation on a 21st century railway is sheer stupidity, and I say that as somebody completely opposed to DOO passenger trains. Even the utter mess that is Northern had the foresight to have the 195s and 331s fitted with GOPs.

Agreed. The network is miles apart from London Underground. Especially on rural stretches of line with 4-6 mins between stations rather than 60 - 90 seconds, such as between Freshfield - Ainsdale, Maghull North - Town Green, Capenhurst - Bache, Meols - Moreton etc.

 

[Pacef8]

Chester line now suffering

https://twitter.com/merseyrail/status/1533879275715272707?s=21&t=ns6NC-CGqotd4YnbtrhBkA

 

[Class360/1]

Chester line now suffering

https://twitter.com/merseyrail/status/1533879275715272707?s=21&t=ns6NC-CGqotd4YnbtrhBkA

People in the comments seem pleased… not.

 

[DJH1971]

Chester line now suffering

https://twitter.com/merseyrail/status/1533879275715272707?s=21&t=ns6NC-CGqotd4YnbtrhBkA

The whole network very soon the way things are going

 

[bluegoblin7]

Agreed. The network is miles apart from London Underground. Especially on rural stretches of line with 4-6 mins between stations rather than 60 - 90 seconds, such as between Freshfield - Ainsdale, Maghull North - Town Green, Capenhurst - Bache, Meols - Moreton etc.

So just like the outer reaches of the Metropolitan and Central lines, then? Or, indeed, most of the outer, suburban sections of most lines? There's a lot more overlap between the two than people are accepting.

 

[joke2711]

Noticed this morning that there are some Transport For Wales units stabled at Birkenhead North. Is this a maintenance agreement or is it for something else?

 

[L401CJF]

Noticed this morning that there are some Transport For Wales units stabled at Birkenhead North. Is this a maintenance agreement or is it for something else?

They are the ex London Underground units converted into hybrid/battery type contraptions for the Bidston to Wrexham line, however the less said about that project the better! There are threads on this forum somewhere about the class 230 project.

 

[joke2711]

Many thanks .. will have a read up!

 

[Tynwald]

So the earth return brushes aren't doing there job

 

[aleggatta]

So the earth return brushes aren't doing there job

That, or the bearings were mis-fitted at the last overhaul, which could be procedure not being followed or defective tooling

 

[JModulo]

That, or the bearings were mis-fitted at the last overhaul, which could be procedure not being followed or defective tooling

Doubt it.

 

[Tynwald]

Nah. increase the line volts, and the axle bearings start failing. Earth brush problem. sure as hell.

Is that down to poor maintenance. Merseyrail might not any sets soon !!

 

[Foxcover]

Merseyrail just announced all lines except Southport-Central going to half-hourly from Monday because of the problem ongoing - the Chesters should certainly be cosy. Predictable reactions on the twitter feed.

**UPDATE - reading the detail on the website, they are also supplementing with buses at strategic locations on most lines if overcrowding becomes too high (eg additional bus covering all stations from Spital to Moorfields on the Chester line if necessary), and committing to running as six cars as the 507/8s return to service - a lot of thought obviously gone into it & it seems the best they could have done in the difficult circumstances)

 

[karlbbb]

Merseyrail just announced all lines except Southport-Central going to half-hourly from Monday because of the problem ongoing - the Chesters should certainly be cosy. Predictable reactions on the twitter feed.

**UPDATE - reading the detail on the website, they are also supplementing with buses at strategic locations on most lines if overcrowding becomes too high (eg additional bus covering all stations from Spital to Moorfields on the Chester line if necessary), and committing to running as six cars as the 507/8s return to service - a lot of thought obviously gone into it & it seems the best they could have done in the difficult circumstances)

The trains are going to be cosy now!

 

[D821]

I can't see them being able to run many 6 car services, if that's the case. That's going to be a fun week.

 

[modernrail]

What happened is Stadler took over the maintenance of the fleet and (in my opinion) have neglected to take good care of them, in the thinking that they would have been withdrawn years ago. Just my opinion - no basis or evidence to that, but I have noticed a steep downward spiral in condition of the units since they took over the maintenance from in house Merseyrail staff.

I am sat on one right now having not been on for a long time and still think they look pretty decent, sound pretty decent and are better than almost every BR era train on Northern, as they have been since the first big refurb.

They obviously need to get the very nice new trains into operation but I still have a soft spot for the current fleet. There is much worse legacy stock knocking around on the railway.

See this photo. I literally dream of a Northern legacy train being anywhere near as clean as that.

 

[karlbbb]

I can't see them being able to run many 6 car services, if that's the case. That's going to be a fun week.

Think you missed the "s" on the end of week there

 

[D821]

Think you missed the "s" on the end of week there

I forgot to check when it finished when I read the email:

This timetable will be in place until further notice and as trains are repaired, services will be strengthened to 6 cars where possible.

Joy.

 

[8A Rail]

Merseyrail just announced all lines except Southport-Central going to half-hourly from Monday because of the problem ongoing - the Chesters should certainly be cosy. Predictable reactions on the twitter feed.

**UPDATE - reading the detail on the website, they are also supplementing with buses at strategic locations on most lines if overcrowding becomes too high (eg additional bus covering all stations from Spital to Moorfields on the Chester line if necessary), and committing to running as six cars as the 507/8s return to service - a lot of thought obviously gone into it & it seems the best they could have done in the difficult circumstances)

Here is the Merseyrail link for the updated info - https://www.merseyrail.org/plan-your-journey/timetable-change-monday-13-june.aspx

 

[Tynwald]

But if the axle bearings are failing, they aint going to running for long, no matter how pretty they are inside. involed with a fleet that had axle bearing poblems. busy time.

 

[DJH1971]

But if the axle bearings are failing, they aint going to running for long, no matter how pretty they are inside. involed with a fleet that had axle bearing poblems. busy time.

Especially for suppliers of Rail Replacement Buses

 

[urbophile]

How is the national dispute likely to impinge on Merseyrail, bearing in mind it's not one of the TOCs on the list?