Merseyrail legacy fleet updates (Class 507/508)

[karlbbb]

Overnight a 777 and a 508 unit were both running on the Ormskirk lone. Wander if that’s anything to do with the ongoing bearing faults?

A party game of “how low, can it go?” perhaps?

777 probably just on fault-free running? 508 on some kind of "shakedown" after replacement bearings fitted/bearings fixed (I don't know the technicality here, if someone else could jump in...)?

 

[cjbirkett]

From Merseyrail website :-

We are pleased to announce that a 15-minute service will operate on most parts of the network from Monday 20 June.

The change follows emergency timetables put in place over the last two weeks, as a result of an unexpected and significant increase in wheel bearing faults. This significantly affected the number of trains available to run, with those trains found to have the fault being taken out of service for repair.

With trains now beginning to re-enter service the following changes will apply;

• Trains on the Ormskirk, Kirkby, Chester, New Brighton and West Kirby lines will run every 15 minutes between approximately 07:00 and 19:00, with a 30 minute service operating outside of these hours.
• Between Southport & Hunts Cross trains will run every 15 minutes from the start to the end of service.
• On the Ellesmere Port line a 30 minute service will continue to run.
• A 30 minute service will continue to run on Sundays across most lines, a 15 minute service will run between Southport and Liverpool after 10:00.

Whilst the number of trains available continues to improve daily, initially all services will operate as 3 car trains. As more trains are repaired, they will be introduced to provide 6 car services on the busiest routes.

 

[HuggyB87]

It doesn't matter what they do, pax will never be happy.

Give them a 15 minute 3-car service, they will moan that trains are overcrowded. Give them a 30 minute 6-car service, they will moan that trains take too long.

Pax think that there is an infinite supply of trains, or at least enough to run every circuit on every line to a 15 minute 6-car service!

 

[Bletchleyite]

It doesn't matter what they do, pax will never be happy.

Give them a 15 minute 3-car service, they will moan that trains are overcrowded. Give them a 30 minute 6-car service, they will moan that trains take too long.

Pax think that there is an infinite supply of trains, or at least enough to run every circuit on every line to a 15 minute 6-car service!

What people not unreasonably want is the pre-privatisation level of service - that is, 4tph with everything between about 0730-0930 and 1600-1900 doubled up (plus Sundays everything doubled up due to the lower frequency and higher demand than in the 1990s when Sunday wasn't a shopping day). Too many units were scrapped or transferred away due to successive post-privatisation cost-cutting and so this can't now be delivered, and complaints about these poor choices are totally justified.

 

[507020]

What people not unreasonably want is the pre-privatisation level of service - that is, 4tph with everything between about 0730-0930 and 1600-1900 doubled up (plus Sundays everything doubled up due to the lower frequency and higher demand than in the 1990s when Sunday wasn't a shopping day). Too many units were scrapped or transferred away due to successive cost-cutting and so this can't now be delivered, and complaints about these poor choices are totally justified.

My understanding of the pre-privatisation service offered by BR is that there was a 7.5 minute peak frequency to Southport, with an intermediate box provided at Hightown to split the block to enable this service and switched out off peak when it was not necessary. I’ve never understood the logic in ordering 52 777s to replace 59 stretched 507s and 508s, 76 of which were originally built to replace 152 Class 502 carriages and 43 3 car 503s, out of 105 units originally ordered to do so, on an electrified network smaller than the present one which is now served by only 55 surviving units. I’ve lost count of how many capacity reductions that is.

 

[MattRat]

It doesn't matter what they do, pax will never be happy.

Give them a 15 minute 3-car service, they will moan that trains are overcrowded. Give them a 30 minute 6-car service, they will moan that trains take too long.

Pax think that there is an infinite supply of trains, or at least enough to run every circuit on every line to a 15 minute 6-car service!

What people not unreasonably want is the pre-privatisation level of service - that is, 4tph with everything between about 0730-0930 and 1600-1900 doubled up (plus Sundays everything doubled up due to the lower frequency and higher demand than in the 1990s when Sunday wasn't a shopping day). Too many units were scrapped or transferred away due to successive post-privatisation cost-cutting and so this can't now be delivered, and complaints about these poor choices are totally justified.

I thought what PAX wanted was the new trains in service, and if that had happened, the problem would likely never have arose in the first place.

 

[Mag_seven]

A reminder that this is a traction and rolling stock section thread to provide Merseyrail Legacy Fleet updates.

If anyone wants to discuss anything else they are welcome to start a new thread in the appropriate forum section.

 

[HuggyB87]

My understanding of the pre-privatisation service offered by BR is that there was a 7.5 minute peak frequency to Southport, with an intermediate box provided at Hightown to split the block to enable this service and switched out off peak when it was not necessary. I’ve never understood the logic in ordering 52 777s to replace 59 stretched 507s and 508s, 76 of which were originally built to replace 152 Class 502 carriages and 43 3 car 503s, out of 105 units originally ordered to do so, on an electrified network smaller than the present one which is now served by only 55 surviving units. I’ve lost count of how many capacity reductions that is.

Approx 230 seats (70 x 3) with minimal standing or approx 230 seats over 4 carriages with increased foot space due to a knocked through and level carriage vestibule - same seating, but more standing room on a single 4 car set.

 

[507020]

Approx 230 seats (70 x 3) with minimal standing or approx 230 seats over 4 carriages with increased foot space due to a knocked through and level carriage vestibule - same seating, but more standing room on a single 4 car set.

The increased standing room will be useful, but is it actually a substitute for more carriages?

 

[Lloyds siding]

My understanding of the pre-privatisation service offered by BR is that there was a 7.5 minute peak frequency to Southport, with an intermediate box provided at Hightown to split the block to enable this service and switched out off peak when it was not necessary. I’ve never understood the logic in ordering 52 777s to replace 59 stretched 507s and 508s, 76 of which were originally built to replace 152 Class 502 carriages and 43 3 car 503s, out of 105 units originally ordered to do so, on an electrified network smaller than the present one which is now served by only 55 surviving units. I’ve lost count of how many capacity reductions that is.

I feel it's worth pointing out the considerable downtime of the old 502s and 503s for maintenance. The iron brake on steel wheel necessitated the brake blocks to be replaced every DAY, and considerable numbers of ECS journeys were necessary to get stock to and from the depots to do this. The 777s should be much better from that point of view!

 

[507020]

I feel it's worth pointing out the considerable downtime of the old 502s and 503s for maintenance. The iron brake on steel wheel necessitated the brake blocks to be replaced every DAY, and considerable numbers of ECS journeys were necessary to get stock to and from the depots to do this. The 777s should be much better from that point of view!

I know they were pre-war designs but was the intention really for such frequent replacement of critical components? It would also make sense why they ran express services which would have necessitated using the brakes less, but could they not come up with anything less maintenance intensive which could be fitted to them later in their lives?

 

[prod_pep]

Too many units were scrapped or transferred away due to successive post-privatisation cost-cutting and so this can't now be delivered, and complaints about these poor choices are totally justified.

Couldn't agree more. Pre-privatisation, there were many more 6 car formations across the network and the Southport - Hunts Cross line was generally 6 cars all day, every day, except during the quieter winter months. I think the Ormskirk line had four of five formations strengthened to 6 car in the peaks, while the Wirral Line (operated as a circuit) had at least six peak pairs well into the '90s.

The 508/3s that Silverlink/London Overground had were strongly linked with a return to Merseyside, and two even made it to Warrington Arpley in late 2009 ahead of expected transfer to Merseyrail, but IIRC an agreement between lessor and TOC couldn't be reached.

My understanding of the pre-privatisation service offered by BR is that there was a 7.5 minute peak frequency to Southport, with an intermediate box provided at Hightown to split the block to enable this service and switched out off peak when it was not necessary.

The 7/8 minute Southport line frequency was achieved by adding 'push-in' workings in the peak direction only between Central and Southport. These extras were 3 car and worked onto the Ormskirk line in the morning and off it in the afternoon.

Three workings survived until just before Maghull North opened (two AM and one PM - the 1713 Liverpool Central - Southport).

 

[Bletchleyite]

The 7/8 minute Southport line frequency was achieved by adding 'push-in' workings in the peak direction only between Central and Southport. These extras were 3 car and worked onto the Ormskirk line in the morning and off it in the afternoon.

Three workings survived until just before Maghull North opened (two AM and one PM - the 1713 Liverpool Central - Southport).

Presumably this was because the unit had to go into the Ormskirk circuit instead - I seem to recall that Maghull North caused an extra unit to need to be added.

 

[razor89]

Presumably this was because the unit had to go into the Ormskirk circuit instead - I seem to recall that Maghull North caused an extra unit to need to be added.

A 6 car from Ormskirk would arrive into Central and go out of service, to be replaced by the 3 car from Southport. This happened twice between 08:30 and 09:00 and was almost possible to do as per the WTT- The Ormskirk trains nearly always went out late. In the evening an empty stock was booked off Kirkdale depot for the 17:13.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A 6 car from Ormskirk would arrive into Central and go out of service, to be replaced by the 3 car from Southport. This happened twice between 08:30 and 09:00 and was almost possible to do as per the WTT- The Ormskirk trains nearly always went out late. In the evening an empty stock was booked off Kirkdale depot for the 17:13.

Thanks. My point was more that this unit is no longer spare because Maghull North caused the Ormskirks to require another unit (also seeing them separated from the Kirkbys)?

 

[prod_pep]

Thanks. My point was more that this unit is no longer spare because Maghull North caused the Ormskirks to require another unit (also seeing them separated from the Kirkbys)?

You're right that one of the units freed was used to increase the Ormskirk line from five to six formations. The other one initially was used to increase the 0828 Southport - Hunts Cross to 6 car but it was later changed to an extra 3 car to increase the peak turnaround at Southport.

The Ormskirk line was always self-contained and not interworked with the Kirkby line during regular daytime service (this has been mentioned before). The two lines were inter-worked during evenings and Sundays only.

 

[Turbo004]

Since pre privatisation the service off peak from Chester to Liverpool has improved immensely. Pre privatisation it was one per 30 mins. Now it is every 15 minutes with additional services via Frodsham by TfW. If I go further back in time I can just about remember the 502's / 503's. These ran a quite frequent service from Liverpool to Rock Ferry. However from Rock Ferry to Chester it was an hourly DMU service to Chester. The two services never connected with each other and I can remember when our 502 / 503 was late to Rock Ferry by a few minutes watching the DMU leave for Chester just as we got to the train. Whilst on some lines such as Southport are worse the line to Chester is so much better now.

 

[MR-507508]

From Merseyrail website :-

We are pleased to announce that a 15-minute service will operate on most parts of the network from Monday 20 June.

The change follows emergency timetables put in place over the last two weeks, as a result of an unexpected and significant increase in wheel bearing faults. This significantly affected the number of trains available to run, with those trains found to have the fault being taken out of service for repair.

With trains now beginning to re-enter service the following changes will apply;

• Trains on the Ormskirk, Kirkby, Chester, New Brighton and West Kirby lines will run every 15 minutes between approximately 07:00 and 19:00, with a 30 minute service operating outside of these hours.
• Between Southport & Hunts Cross trains will run every 15 minutes from the start to the end of service.
• On the Ellesmere Port line a 30 minute service will continue to run.
• A 30 minute service will continue to run on Sundays across most lines, a 15 minute service will run between Southport and Liverpool after 10:00.

Whilst the number of trains available continues to improve daily, initially all services will operate as 3 car trains. As more trains are repaired, they will be introduced to provide 6 car services on the busiest routes.

With the service on Merseyrail returning to the usual timetable from Monday, has the underlying cause of the wheel bearing faults been identified and ways to prevent the excessive number of these faults from occurring on the 507/508 units?

A 6 car from Ormskirk would arrive into Central and go out of service, to be replaced by the 3 car from Southport. This happened twice between 08:30 and 09:00 and was almost possible to do as per the WTT- The Ormskirk trains nearly always went out late. In the evening an empty stock was booked off Kirkdale depot for the 17:13.

I used to travel on the peak 6 car Ormskirk services (which became replaced with the peak extra 3 car Southport-Liverpool Central services, upon arrival at Central - pre May 2018).
I remember, the 3 car service from Southport was pathed to terminate on platform 1 (@ 0833 & 0848), head into the reversing siding at Central, then approach on platform 2 to form the 0840 (or 0855) Ormskirk service, while the 6 car services from Ormskirk terminated on platform 1 (@ 0835 & 0850, behind the 3 car service) to head ECS to Kirkdale depot.
What often happen though was the Southport 3 car was running late, so it terminated and started back (to Ormskirk) from platform 1, while the Ormskirk 6 car terminated on platform 2 to head ECS to the depot.

 

[prod_pep]

I used to travel on the peak 6 car Ormskirk services (which became replaced with the peak extra 3 car Southport-Liverpool Central services, upon arrival at Central - pre May 2018).
I remember, the 3 car service from Southport was pathed to terminate on platform 1 (@ 0833 & 0848), head into the reversing siding at Central, then approach on platform 2 to form the 0840 (or 0855) Ormskirk service, while the 6 car services from Ormskirk terminated on platform 1 (@ 0835 & 0850, behind the 3 car service) to head ECS to Kirkdale depot.
What often happen though was the Southport 3 car was running late, so it terminated and started back (to Ormskirk) from platform 1, while the Ormskirk 6 car terminated on platform 2 to head ECS to the depot.

There was a third Ormskirk morning peak 6 car which formed the 0820 arrival at Liverpool Central. This did an additional trip to Ormskirk and, following the 0935 arrival at Central, was replaced by an ECS 3 car from Kirkdale depot, usually one of the units from the 0835 arrival or occasionally a spare unit. The units forming the 0820 and 0935 Central arrivals then usually worked the daily Kirkdale depot - West Kirby ECS to take up the PM 6 car on the West Kirby line.

Surprisingly, pre-May 2018, the Ormskirk line had only two evening peak 6 car sets, despite the 1740 Central - Ormskirk being one of the most overcrowded on the network. IIRC, in Arriva days the 1740 was a 6 car in lieu of the 1725, which swapped around 2002. Despite this, some of the caption boards still erroneously showed the 1740 diagram as a 6 car long after it was reduced.

Apologies if it has been mentioned already, but 507016 is now back in service following overhaul.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

How recently did the senior management change? The guy on the above video is not the Dutchman I remembered.

"The Dutchman" Jan Chaudry van der Velde is now MD of TfW Rail Services after a spell with WMT.
So he does still touch Merseyrail at Chester.

Another major organisational change at Merseyrail is that the fleet maintenance is contracted to Stadler, and includes the remaining time with the legacy fleet.
No doubt everybody was planning on early introduction of the 777s and an early goodbye to the PEPs.

 

[D821]

Am I right in assuming that when Stadler took over the maintenance they just moved the Merseyrail staff over to them?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Am I right in assuming that when Stadler took over the maintenance they just moved the Merseyrail staff over to them?

Yes, they will have been TUPEd.

 

[507020]

Yes, they will have been TUPEd.

It’s the same staff maintaining the same trains at the same depots until the 777s enter service (and they haven’t started any training on them yet) so how exactly is this supposed to have affected reliability?

 

[Razorblades]

Yes, they will have been TUPEd.

Correct. In the same way that Alstom/ Fiat Ferroviaria TUPEd the engineering workforce of Virgin Trains and transferred responsibility for the West Coast depot estate in February 1998.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Correct. In the same way that Alstom/ Fiat Ferroviaria TUPEd the engineering workforce of Virgin Trains and transferred responsibility for the West Coast depot estate in February 1998.

And we watched the reliability of the loco hauled stock plummet for the obvious reason that as little as possible was spent on maintenance and repairs on a fleet about to go off lease.

 

[Razorblades]

And we watched the reliability of the loco hauled stock plummet for the obvious reason that as little as possible was spent on maintenance and repairs on a fleet about to go off lease.

Whereas in fact, availability increased with the quantity of sets in traffic on a daily basis increased from 39 to 45 - at the 5/99 T/T change IIRC, with no increase in fleet size.

 

[507020]

Whereas in fact, availability increased with the quantity of sets in traffic on a daily basis increased from 39 to 45 - at the 5/99 T/T change IIRC, with no increase in fleet size.

Did the 05/99 timetable then run without as many cancellations as the 12/98 and 05/98 timetables had?

 

[Razorblades]

Did the 05/99 timetable then run without as many cancellations as the 12/98 and 05/98 timetables had?

Cancellations happen for a range of reasons, T&RS issues being but one category.

 

[karlbbb]

Do we know any more details about what exactly was found or went wrong with the wheel bearings? It seems most trains are back as a lot of 6-car services are running again even on the 15-minute timetable.

 

[L401CJF]

Do we know any more details about what exactly was found or went wrong with the wheel bearings? It seems most trains are back as a lot of 6-car services are running again even on the 15-minute timetable.

Not 100% sure but they seem to be monitoring the situation. A friend of mine who is a guard there noted a unit with multiple maintenance staff onboard and some wiring cable tied from the bogies in through the gap at the bottom of the front passenger door hooked up to some sort of gadget inside taking measurements.

He did send a photo but its very hard to make anything out except for a few wires going through the door rubber, taped wires at the bottom right of the door, and a cable tie holding them to the ramp locator hole in the step!