Merseyrail mandates that Trainline tickets must be printed out

[Wallsendmag]

There would be no costs for merseyrail to get handheld scanners or have scanners installed on gates. Zero. Zilch. Retailers have been offering to pay for these for years, via the very well established barcode cost recovery programme which is run by RDG on behalf of TOCs and retailers. Surely nobody thinks that the other TOCs paid 100% of the costs for scanners at their stations, or for their handheld devices? Nope, third party retailers paid for the vast majority of the costs, with a tax on every barcode issued levied by RDG to pay for them. As merseyrail don’t issue barcode tickets, they’d never have to pay a penny. Imagine that - something for free! They still don’t want barcode acceptance on their network though

Actually VTEC paid for their original gateline and handheld scanners because they were purchased before the RDG scheme started. TOCs also have to pay the barcode levy so it's not all funded by TPRs in fact some TOCs transfer their "credit" to certain TPRs

 

[alistairlees]

Actually VTEC paid for their original gateline and handheld scanners because they were purchased before the RDG scheme started. TOCs also have to pay the barcode levy so it's not all funded by TPRs in fact some TOCs transfer their "credit" to certain TPRs

I worderd my response above very carefully, using "retailers" to indicate all retailers (both independent and TOC; and including barcode tickets issued both online and from stations) - so I was certainly not excluding the contribution that TOC retailers have made. Worth noting though that, as I said, TOC contributions towards the barcode scanning infrastructure (scanners on gates, handhelds, eTVDs) are significantly in a minority here - the vast majority of funding has come independent retailers, through the barcode levy.

I'm not sure what you mean by "transferring credit". You will have to enlighten me.

Back on topic; Merseyrail would not need to pay anything, either in capital costs or transaction / ongoing costs (as they refuse to sell barcode tickets), for barcode tickets from stations outside of Merseyrail to be accepted across the Merseyrail network, and properly scanned at gates / on trains. Well, maybe some staff training costs. They could still decide whether they want to offer barcode tickets for journeys wholly within the Merseyrail network - that is their prerogative I guess, though I suspect that most members of the public would expect them to do this sort of thing now.

 

[_toommm_]

Worth noting of course there would be costs to also get a license from one of the scanning software providers (not that that is an excuse not to do it, when eTickets are blatantly here to stay)

Indeed, I just wanted to highlight the relatively cheap cost of them. The figure banded about for ours is £400 over retail for the software, but ours have a  lot more custom software and apps (in the region of 20+ off the top of my head) versus what a TOC would reasonably need.

 

[northwichcat]

It's all well and good them removing the tweet, but they've done nothing to solve the underlying problem here

What does deleting it achieve? Some people will remember the content of it, and then other people won't have seen it. When people who have seen it talk to people who haven't, there can be a disagreement.

Reposting with a clarification or correction would be better.

 

[ServerHoster]

The post may have been deleted but the message still remains in real life.

Picture of “Tickets bought via trainline or other third party retailers must be printed at a station before travel. Merseyrail do not accept digital tickets.” On a digital screen at Moorfields station

 

[alistairlees]

The post may have been deleted but the message still remains in real life.

Picture of “Tickets bought via trainline or other third party retailers must be printed at a station before travel. Merseyrail do not accept digital tickets.” On a digital screen at Moorfields station

Moorfields, Formby and Birkenhead North at least yesterday…

 

[Hadders]

If these Merseyrail TVMs accept card payment then there'll have to have some sort of network connection to process payments.

 

[OscarH]

If these Merseyrail TVMs accept card payment then there'll have to have some sort of network connection to process payments.

I don't think there's much doubt this (both lack of ToD at TVMs, and lack of eTickets) is entirely a political problem rather than a practical one

 

[ServerHoster]

Moorfields, Formby and Birkenhead North at least yesterday…

Oh, I also heard an announcement at Bidston today stating the same.

 

[YorkRailFan]

It has been brought to the attention of Enroute that members of the public travelling on Merseyrail services in Merseyside have been receiving penalty fares and fines from Merseyrail for travelling with a digital QR code ticket (e-ticket) through apps such as Trainline without having printed the e-ticket first.

This contradicts the general rule in the UK that e-tickets are accepted, including by being displayed from mobile devices.

According to the National Rail Conditions of Travel, in some cases, tickets stored on an electronic device or smartcard are valid when showed from a mobile device or printed.

However, uniquely, Merseyrail maintains its own ‘Merseyrail Byelaws’, last updated 2014, made under Section 46(1) and Schedule 9 of the Railways Act 2005. According to the front cover of these Byelaws and pursuant to the Railway Byelaws Amendment Order 2013, railway assets of or under the management of Merseyrail are not subject to the National Rail Byelaws, which similar to the Conditions of Travel, acknowledge e-tickets. Conversely, Merseyrail byelaws do not recognise or acknowledge e-tickets.

As a result, based on Enroute analysis, we understand that it is within the rights of Merseyrail under their own byelaws not to accept e-tickets tickets.

“They will persue you, you will end up with a county court judgement and you will end up with bailiffs at the door for an amount way in excess of the fine you received.”

Diastolic
via Reddit What are we doing about it?
We have written and published an open letter to Merseyrail’s Managing Director, Neil Grabham, and gathered passenger testimonials and case studies of how this unusual stance from Merseyrail has affected the travelling public.

We have also launched a petition for Merseyrail to acknowledge our letter to their Managing Director and amend their policies to allow passengers travelling with e-tickets to be permitted travel if they are shown to an authorised official from a mobile device.

We will be working with decision-makers, other campaign groups and advocacy organisations, as well as promoting the case for change on social media, pushing Merseyrail to change their policies for the public good.

“The sad thing is that she has now been put off travelling by train because of this experience. Until they bring their systems into the 21st Century then they should show some discretion.”

‘Sarah’
via Liverpool Echo

Ditch the Print | Enroute

Campaign Rail Downloads and links Open letter to Neil Grabham Passenger comments Petition Talk to us Tell us your story What's going on? It has been brought to the attention of Enroute that members of the public travelling on Merseyrail services in Merseyside have been receiving penalty fares...

enroutecic.com

Enroute has sent an Open Letter to Merseyrail MD Neil Grabham and has launched a petition to stop this which can be found here: https://www.change.org/p/bring-mers...0bcd7&share_bandit_exp=initial-37953235-en-GB
Madness that Merseyrail doesn't accept E-Tickets, being stuck in the last century makes traveling by train less attractive to passengers.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Ditch the Print | Enroute

Campaign Rail Downloads and links Open letter to Neil Grabham Passenger comments Petition Talk to us Tell us your story What's going on? It has been brought to the attention of Enroute that members of the public travelling on Merseyrail services in Merseyside have been receiving penalty fares...

enroutecic.com

Enroute has sent an Open Letter to Merseyrail MD Neil Grabham and has launched a petition to stop this which can be found here: https://www.change.org/p/bring-mers...0bcd7&share_bandit_exp=initial-37953235-en-GB
Madness that Merseyrail doesn't accept E-Tickets, being stuck in the last century makes traveling by train less attractive to passengers.

But again, this is complete nonsense and stems from poor messaging rather than a real issue.

Merseyrail can and do accept genuine e-tickets (and other forms of barcode ticket) without any issue at all. They are familiar with them, particularly as most of the adjoining operators issue them fairly routinely.

The issue is solely with TOD - and the need to print these "digital bookings" only. People are, correctly, being issued with a Penalty Fare for failing to collect/print these tickets prior to travel.

There is no issue with NRCoT compliance or the general acceptance of valid tickets. The petition is completely pointless.

Of course, Merseyrail are responsible for this mess/confusion because of their poor messaging, but this, I suspect, is completely unintentional and simply highlighting the inadequacy of their knowledge.

 

[Kite159]

Merseyrail can and do accept genuine e-tickets (and other forms of barcode ticket) without any issue at all.

Better tell that to Claire on Merseyrail.

All third party tickets purchased need to be printed before travelling on our network, including third party tickets that have a QR code. ^Claire

https://twitter.com/merseyrail/status/1773055869900464420?t=A3r5_8x2dIoJ0X28eN54mA&s=19

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Better tell that to Claire on Merseyrail.

https://twitter.com/merseyrail/status/1773055869900464420?t=A3r5_8x2dIoJ0X28eN54mA&s=19

Good job no third party tickets have a QR code then

They're just clueless in the messaging.

 

[kacper]

Good job no third party tickets have a QR code then

They're just clueless in the messaging.

I think we’ve all established that saying ‘QR Code’ and such is easier for others to understand

 

[MrJeeves]

But again, this is complete nonsense and stems from poor messaging rather than a real issue.

Merseyrail can and do accept genuine e-tickets (and other forms of barcode ticket) without any issue at all. They are familiar with them, particularly as most of the adjoining operators issue them fairly routinely.

The issue is solely with TOD - and the need to print these "digital bookings" only. People are, correctly, being issued with a Penalty Fare for failing to collect/print these tickets prior to travel.

There is no issue with NRCoT compliance or the general acceptance of valid tickets. The petition is completely pointless.

Of course, Merseyrail are responsible for this mess/confusion because of their poor messaging, but this, I suspect, is completely unintentional and simply highlighting the inadequacy of their knowledge.

The entire thing is just insanity here...

They say that "analysis" had concluded:

we understand that it is within the rights of Merseyrail under their own byelaws not to accept e-tickets tickets.

What analysis? They don't give any reasoning behind this factually incorrect statement.

They talk about Merseyrail having byelaws just above this, when that has no bearing on the validity of E-Tickets issued under the NRCoT, and Merseyrail themselves even include a description which would include E-Tickets in their definition of "ticket" in the byelaws:

(vii) any type of smart card, pre-pay, or other form of electronic ticket

The ORR has confirmed in an FOI that the NRCoT applies for Merseyrail (as we all should know anyway) and hence its provision for E-Ticket acceptance applies for any journeys on their network.

The NRCoT states that some tickets may have to be printed but that you will be informed of this is the case. No retailer that I'm aware of would warn a passenger that they must print their E-Ticket before travelling with their ticket on Merseyrail.

I don't see how you could say that Merseyrail's advertising message would meet this condition as, presumably, a customer should be made aware before purchasing the ticket.

In such cases you will be advised of (and must comply with) the specific conditions applying to Tickets held in those formats.

 

[yorkie]

E tickets use Aztec codes not QR codes. It's better to simply say 'barcode'; no need to be specific about the format.

Generally speaking, people who refer to Aztec codes as 'QR codes' don't really understand what the technology is about and are just doing so out of ignorance. Therefore when Merseyrail refer to QR codes on tickets , I assume they refer to Aztec codes , but just don't understand what they are talking about.

Do Merseyrail have anyone in their HQ who understands this stuff? If so, I see no evidence of it.

Good job no third party tickets have a QR code then

They're just clueless in the messaging.

Clueless in their understanding, as well as lacking intellince and pragmatism.

They are stuck in the past and need to sort themselves out.

They are a ridiculously unprofessional company who hasn't got a clue. They make Northern look not so bad!

 

[87007]

Merseyrail accept concessionary permits in lieu of tix at the barriers so can be flexible.

 

[skyhigh]

The entire thing is just insanity here...

They say that "analysis" had concluded:


What analysis? They don't give any reasoning behind this factually incorrect statement.

They talk about Merseyrail having byelaws just above this, when that has no bearing on the validity of E-Tickets issued under the NRCoT, and Merseyrail themselves even include a description which would include E-Tickets in their definition of "ticket" in the byelaws:


The ORR has confirmed in an FOI that the NRCoT applies for Merseyrail (as we all should know anyway) and hence its provision for E-Ticket acceptance applies for any journeys on their network.

The NRCoT states that some tickets may have to be printed but that you will be informed of this is the case. No retailer that I'm aware of would warn a passenger that they must print their E-Ticket before travelling with their ticket on Merseyrail.

I don't see how you could say that Merseyrail's advertising message would meet this condition as, presumably, a customer should be made aware before purchasing the ticket.

"Enroute" is essentially just a school student with a fancy website parading as a transport lobby body. It's last name was "Sustainable Travel Midlands" so it's probably fair to say they have little knowledge or experience about the subject of Merseyrail.

 

[MrJeeves]

"Enroute" is essentially just a school student with a fancy website parading as a transport lobby body. It's last name was "Sustainable Travel Midlands" so it's probably fair to say they have little knowledge or experience about the subject of Merseyrail.

Quite!

 

[YorkRailFan]

Better tell that to Claire on Merseyrail.

https://twitter.com/merseyrail/status/1773055869900464420?t=A3r5_8x2dIoJ0X28eN54mA&s=19

Comes nowhere Close to:

Image description: Image of Merseyrail tweet reading: "This can be printed at your destination ^Linda." With text below reading "This post has been deleted."

 

[Deafdoggie]

I refuse to use X without mentioning Twitter and I refuse to mention posts without reference to tweets.

This just seems so apt on a thread about Merseyrail refusing to get up to date

 

[Skie]

Merseyrail can and do accept genuine e-tickets (and other forms of barcode ticket) without any issue at all. They are familiar with them, particularly as most of the adjoining operators issue them fairly routinely.

I’ve personally had issues with e-tickets when our internal ticketing system was issuing them for Merseyrail flows. Usually just confused staff at barriers “letting me off this time” but a colleague had enough issues he pursued it with Merseyrail and our ticketing supplier. I’ve seen the email where a senior bod in Merseyrail said they will accept them.

This was pre-pandemic and before they printed ToD.

Edit: just checked and Merseyrail said they do accept them. I do remember seeing something contradictory though, will have to dig through old work emails.

 

[infobleep]

This just seems so apt on a thread about Merseyrail refusing to get up to date

However, unlike Merseyrail, I refuse to mention Twitter without mentioning X and I refuse to mention tweets without first referencing posts.

So I encompass all. Merseyrail on the other hand......

 

[northwichcat]

The spit ticketing engine is saying only paper tickets are available for Northwich to Liverpool Route: Chester.

 

[stuart100100]

On the train this evening. No distinction between E Tickets and TOD under 'buying your ticket'

Poster on a Merseyrail train detailing the rules around penalty fares, some information regarding digital tickets and travelling at peak times with a valid off peak ticket appears to be incorrect and other information about buying a ticket at an interchange station is ambiguous

 

[Adam Williams]

Very poor wording.

Additionally: Is it permitted to issue a PF to a customer with an off-peak ticket, travelling during so-called "Peak times"?

 

[northwichcat]

Given that wording both a printed e-ticket and a digital e-ticket on the Northern app are both acceptable.

Surely the notice needs to be displayed before you get on the train.

Do they have any notices at platform 7 at Chester, where, on occasions there can be a TfW Rail service departing from the other end of the platform?

 

[MrJeeves]

Very poor wording.

In another sense, very good wording! That's the first poster I've seen to have the correct PF wording as per the legislation. Impressive.

 

[Hadders]

Very poor wording.

Additionally: Is it permitted to issue a PF to a customer with an off-peak ticket, travelling during so-called "Peak times"?

No they can't. An excess fare is payable.

 

[northwichcat]

Not to mention an Off Peak ticket from Birkenhead to London would actually be valid on Merseyrail services before 09:29 anyway.