Metrolink coming to Bolton (?) - Shapps

Bletchleyite

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That brings to mind the long road-running sections of the Ashton-under-Lyne Metrolink line and the subsequent disruption to the main travel roads along the route that occurred and the time these took to effect. Have you considered the actual required mileage of road running your scenario would entail and the time needed to fully complete the scheme?
No, because I'm not proposing it as such.
 
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Xenophon PCDGS

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the good of the many....
Wouldn’t necessarily have to move far if the offer to buy by Metrolink is far enough in advance that there is a good chance of a neighbour wanting to sell.

If "the good of the many" is something to be considered, noting that local councillors have been in post for the very many years since the railways met their demise, then why have these elected councillors never made any proposals over those years, but have been more than happy with their local bus services that serve the area electorate?

Regarding the other raised point, surely the "neighbour wanting to sell" would also be in the same relation scenario, so that idea needs a lot more thought giving to it. Where will the said neighbour be relocating after selling their property?
 
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Howardh

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While reinstating the line from line from Radcliffe or Bury to Bolton would involve a lot of property acquisition and demolition i would think this route would viable and worth doing. There has been a lot of development along the route at Little Lever etc so a lot of potential traffic. Radcliffe park and ride is huge and very busy and I suspect a lot of the traffic comes from these hosing estates.
I am sure that owners of houses on that proposed route would be delighted to give up living in existing houses in the area, just so a tram line could be instated...:rolleyes:

Perhaps you may like to visit the proposed properties and put your stated reasons to them for consideration and show proposed areas where they may be relocated. One matter would possibly of worry to them and that is having to source new schools for their children to attend with all the educational disruption that would entail.
The simplest answer to re-opening the Bolton/Radcliffe/Bury line is to have a guided or dedicated busway and buses use the normal roads to bypass those developments. The only difficulty would be - is the bridge over the A666 capable of handling transport (or how £££ to make it so) and access to that bridge from the Bolton side. If that's not possible, and you are street-running from the town to where the old rail can be accessed then much of the advantage has gone (ie Bromwich street to Darcy Lever and join the busway there) - although on saying that it would still save more time than the 45' 524 bus linking Little Lever and Radcliffe to Bury/Bolton- but not enough to challenge the 30' Bolton - Bury - Rochdale 471?

But if there's money around, then let's do something with it along those lines (pun intended).
 

Meerkat

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Regarding the other raised point, surely the "neighbour wanting to sell" would also be in the same relation scenario, so that idea needs a lot more thought giving to it. Where will the said neighbour be relocating after selling their property?
You misunderstand. If the project offer to buy the houses at the start (so possibly years before they actually need possession) then there is a good chance that in the meantime someone in the same road will be moving out as part of the natural turnover of properties. Afflicted owners buy the freed up house with the cash offered by the project.
 

Wtloild

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Resurrecting parts of the old Eccles to Bolton line with some on-street running could:
a) Provide I direct link from Bolton area to employment centres of Salford Quays & possibly Trafford Park.
b) Allow such traffic to avoid the massively congested central Manchester rail network.
c) Allow such traffic to avoid the massively congested NW-M60 & M602.
d) Regenerate the very poorly-served Little Hulton.
e) Serve Royal Bolton Hospital.

As a direct link from Bolton to Manchester, it'd be poor, but much of the problem with transport generally in Gtr Manchester is that it's so focused on Central Manchester.

All of that said, I agree wholeheartedly with others that this is more election hot-air than anything likely to actually happen.
 

edwin_m

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This article shows how far the Tory "promise" is, or rather isn't, going to go in solving the transport problems of the North: https://www.citymetric.com/transpor...t-local-transport-it-really-really-isn-t-4866
It’s £4.2bn over five years, which works out to £840m a year. To put that in context: the Northern line extension to Battersea, which will add two stations to the tube network, is currently priced at £1.1bn.

I’m being a bit cheeky here (though admittedly not as cheeky as the government), because of course major transport works tend not to happen in a single year. A better way of critiquing these figures is to note that the funding will be available to eight different city regions. Split the money eight ways and you get – drumroll, please – £525m.

Once again, this is objectively a lot of money and yet also in this specific context not very much at all. Manchester Metrolink’s Second City Crossing, a 1.3km stretch of track across the city centre intended to improve capacity on the tram network, cost £165m all on its own. A second line of the Midlands Metro, which will link Wednesbury and Brierly Hill to the network, will cost £450m, despite the fact it uses a disused rail line. The 14km Edinburgh Tram line cost over £1bn; a 4.6km extension to Newhaven will cost another £207m.

So I don’t want to be too sniffy about how much £525m will buy you – It clearly buys you something. But it’s not going to come even close to sorting out the transport problems of a conurbation like West Yorkshire, said to be the largest urban area in Europe not to have any form of tram or metro network. It’s a fraction of the money you’d need to spend to build a tram network as good as Manchester’s. The idea that it’s enough to get close to a London-style transport network is laughable.

In practice, not every conurbation will get £525m. They’ll have to bid for the money, so some will get more – others may get nothing.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Resurrecting parts of the old Eccles to Bolton line with some on-street running could:
a) Provide I direct link from Bolton area to employment centres of Salford Quays & possibly Trafford Park.
b) Allow such traffic to avoid the massively congested central Manchester rail network.
c) Allow such traffic to avoid the massively congested NW-M60 & M602.
d) Regenerate the very poorly-served Little Hulton.
e) Serve Royal Bolton Hospital.

As a direct link from Bolton to Manchester, it'd be poor, but much of the problem with transport generally in Gtr Manchester is that it's so focused on Central Manchester.
There is going to be the not-inconsiderable matter of sourcing the extra tram units that will be required for both the two proposed line services to Bolton and to Stockport. Have Queens Road and Old Trafford tram depots enough spare capacity to house these trams or will a new depot need to also be brought on line, that can also be used for other planned extensions to the Metrolink network, such as to Port Salford (with a replacement/refurbished bridge over the Manchester Ship Canal that suffered a disaster).

Of course, times were different in the days when the trains from Bolton Great Moor Street station ran via Little Hulton and Walkden Low Level stations into Manchester and I do take your point that as a direct link it will be poor in comparison to the existing heavy rail non-stop services from Bolton that see their first stop being at Salford Crescent station. One could draw a comparison to the time actually taken by the Metrolink Airport service to Manchester Victoria station, but that service seems to serve many areas of Wythenshawe for local journeys within that area, then goes via Sale Water Park and Barlow Moor Road tram stops, even before it reaches St Werburghs Road tram stop where the East Didsbury to Shaw & Crompton/Rochdale Town Centre services also run through.
 

apk55

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I think we need to establish which route they intent to use.

The route from Little Lever is relatively short and while some property acquisition would be required it is quite limited and much of the route is a walkway. It would not have capacity constraints as much of the service would be achieved by extending the Victoria or Crumpsall terminators so not much new stock would be required. It would also offer a reasonably quick journey into Manchester that may still be attractive to some commuters from even Bolton who do not want Piccadilly or Oxford Rd.

The other route via Little Hulton would involve much more construction work (probably more than twice the distance) and so probably much more property acquisition so it would be very much more costly. It would also be very slow particularly if using the Eccles line so would attract few city center commuters. It would also push more on the already congested Cornbrook/ St Peters square section of track

In either case I would like to think the line to goes past Bolton station and into the town center possibly beyond to terminate at a Park and ride station on the A58 near Astley Bridge or Smithalls park
 

Ianno87

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I think we need to establish which route they intent to use.

The route from Little Lever is relatively short and while some property acquisition would be required it is quite limited and much of the route is a walkway. It would not have capacity constraints as much of the service would be achieved by extending the Victoria or Crumpsall terminators so not much new stock would be required. It would also offer a reasonably quick journey into Manchester that may still be attractive to some commuters from even Bolton who do not want Piccadilly or Oxford Rd.

The other route via Little Hulton would involve much more construction work (probably more than twice the distance) and so probably much more property acquisition so it would be very much more costly. It would also be very slow particularly if using the Eccles line so would attract few city center commuters. It would also push more on the already congested Cornbrook/ St Peters square section of track

In either case I would like to think the line to goes past Bolton station and into the town center possibly beyond to terminate at a Park and ride station on the A58 near Astley Bridge or Smithalls park
Terninating in/running through Victoria Square would be wonderful :)
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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I would like to think the line to goes past Bolton station and into the town center possibly beyond to terminate at a Park and ride station on the A58 near Astley Bridge or Smithalls park
The new bus station is now a proper interchange with the railway station at Bolton, being connected by an overbridge over the railway running lines.
 

Howardh

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Noting the title of this thread, it seems that plans are all peachy... I'll drink to that! ;)
Someone has corrected the title and spoilt the gag.....only someone on a dozen shots per hour could come up with wasting money on trams to Bolton when the trains and buses have more urgent need!
 

boltontopcat

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Someone has corrected the title and spoilt the gag.....only someone on a dozen shots per hour could come up with wasting money on trams to Bolton when the trains and buses have more urgent need!
Someone has corrected the title and spoilt the gag.....only someone on a dozen shots per hour could come up with wasting money on trams to Bolton when the trains and buses have more urgent need!
So if not a tram or train to From Bolton to Bury and Rochdale what’s your solution?
If you’d travelled to Bury by bus from any area of Bolton that requires you to catch a couple of buses that include the 471 you will find that you spend up to 3 hours a day either on a bus or waiting for one just going and coming back from work. Considering the distance door to door is less than 9 miles that’s a joke/gag.
Can you imagine large three large town thd size of Bolton, Bury and Rochdale in the south east not having a train/tram or underground line between them. Most of them have at least two.
BTW I’m not on six shots year never mind an hour.
 

Howardh

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So if not a tram or train to From Bolton to Bury and Rochdale what’s your solution?
If you’d travelled to Bury by bus from any area of Bolton that requires you to catch a couple of buses that include the 471 you will find that you spend up to 3 hours a day either on a bus or waiting for one just going and coming back from work. Considering the distance door to door is less than 9 miles that’s a joke/gag.
Can you imagine large three large town thd size of Bolton, Bury and Rochdale in the south east not having a train/tram or underground line between them. Most of them have at least two.
BTW I’m not on six shots year never mind an hour.
Guided or dedicated busway along the remaining parts of the old line and street running where built over. No need for trains or trams even though they would be nice to have back.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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If you’d travelled to Bury by bus from any area of Bolton that requires you to catch a couple of buses that include the 471 you will find that you spend up to 3 hours a day either on a bus or waiting for one just going and coming back from work. Considering the distance door to door is less than 9 miles that’s a joke/gag.
Look at the areas served by bus stops en route by the different bus routes on the Bolton to Bury services. You may well start your journey in the interchanges at either Bolton or Bury, but these bus services do serve a number of differing communities both to the north or south of the former heavy rail route that will never be served by Metrolink, giving Affetside as an example.

I am surprised that no-one has yet suggested opening a Metrolink service along the line of the former Bury to Holcombe Brook line on which the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway ran electric train services over 100 years ago.
 

Howardh

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Look at the areas served by bus stops en route by the different bus routes on the Bolton to Bury services. You may well start your journey in the interchanges at either Bolton or Bury, but these bus services do serve a number of differing communities both to the north or south of the former heavy rail route that will never be served by Metrolink, giving Affetside as an example.

I am surprised that no-one has yet suggested opening a Metrolink service along the line of the former Bury to Holcombe Brook line on which the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway ran electric train services over 100 years ago.
I've thought of it, I never rode the line but I'm sure I saw trains on in when I was a nipper! But the expense for a few hundred commuters would probably rule it out today even though it might reduce traffic congestion into Bury. Also in town would probably require street-running and I don't know how it would link up to the current metrolink? But the East Lancs Railway - couldn't that be trams or, better still, commuter trains again? It is linked to the national rail network!
 

edwin_m

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I've thought of it, I never rode the line but I'm sure I saw trains on in when I was a nipper! But the expense for a few hundred commuters would probably rule it out today even though it might reduce traffic congestion into Bury. Also in town would probably require street-running and I don't know how it would link up to the current metrolink? But the East Lancs Railway - couldn't that be trams or, better still, commuter trains again? It is linked to the national rail network!
I was involved in a study into through services a few years ago but it would have been no more than a few through workings at peak time otherwise it would have compromised the ELR's heritage operations in one way or another.
 

ic31420

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One thing that is consistently forgotten by those in Bolton Championing metrolink for the town is how much slower it would be than heavy rail given the lower top speeds and the more frequent stops. This was brought home to me having used the Rochdale lines before chrimbo.

Running to Bolton Via Bury will miss many of the population centres and be even longer. A more sensible extension from Bury would be Rawtenstall via the ELR somehow.

The new proposed stop between Radcliffe and Bury at Elton Res will hopefully have a huge carpark. You can't get on the Bury metrolink carpark after about 0630 and Radcliffe is full by 0800. I either end up not travelling or driving to Bromley Cross or Hallithwood where I can park in a mates drive.


It has long been suggested that the metrolink will only touch the southwest and west of Bolton.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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The new proposed stop between Radcliffe and Bury at Elton Res will hopefully have a huge carpark. You can't get on the Bury metrolink carpark after about 0630 and Radcliffe is full by 0800. I either end up not travelling or driving to Bromley Cross or Hallithwood where I can park in a mates driveway.
Does anyone have the total car parking spaces capacity information for the Metrolink double-decker car parks at both Radcliffe and at Whitefield. Both of these seem well patronised.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Running to Bolton Via Bury will miss many of the population centres and be even longer. A more sensible extension from Bury would be Rawtenstall via the ELR somehow.
Ignoring the obvious fact that Bolton is a far larger catchment area than Rawtenstall, plus the cost of installing Metrolink OHLE and Metrolink-style signalling from Bury to Rawtenstall, would the fact that the East Lancashire Railway would not look kindly upon such extra abstractions of passengers using its very own tracks be a matter soon raised in print?
 

daodao

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Ignoring the obvious fact that Bolton is a far larger catchment area than Rawtenstall, plus the cost of installing Metrolink OHLE and Metrolink-style signalling from Bury to Rawtenstall, would the fact that the East Lancashire Railway would not look kindly upon such extra abstractions of passengers using its very own tracks be a matter soon raised in print?
If TfGM feel that the line from Heywood to Rawtenstall via Bury would be useful for proper public transport, they should have the right to expropriate it from ELR. Heritage trains could be run at less busy times, e.g. Summer Sundays and Boxing Day/New Year's Day.
 

apk55

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Even if the route from Bolton via Radcliffe to Manchester is slower it may still be more attractive to some users as the stations are more convenient. For example a for a shopper or commuter wanting Market street the long walk from Piccadilly station platform 13 might be less desirable than a slower but more frequent tram service. It would also serve some communities where there has been a lot of recent development such as Darcy Lever, little lever and Bradley Fold which not well served by public transport. I suspect many of the Park and Ride commuters at Radcliffe come from this area so putting a station nearer home might avoid the need to use a car
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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If TfGM feel that the line from Heywood to Rawtenstall via Bury would be useful for proper public transport, they should have the right to expropriate it from ELR. Heritage trains could be run at less busy times, e.g. Summer Sundays and Boxing Day/New Year's Day.
Have the East Lancashire Railway made any statements about what you propose above, over recent years?

Have TfGM recently issued any statements of future intent to expropriate the said heritage railway being "useful to proper public transport use"?

I am old enough to remember making many return rail journeys in the 1950s from the bay platforms of Manchester Victoria railway station along the said line but eventually, some years later, these services were withdrawn by British Rail even though they were "useful to proper public transport use".
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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I suspect many of the Park and Ride commuters at Radcliffe come from this area so putting a station nearer home might avoid the need to use a car
I really appreciate your trust in human nature where car owners would willingly forsake the use of their car (that offers transport "from their front door") than considering other modes of transport from their home address, thinking of days when the rain is "lashing down" or when the snow "lies deep and crisp and even".
 

Bletchleyite

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Ignoring the obvious fact that Bolton is a far larger catchment area than Rawtenstall, plus the cost of installing Metrolink OHLE and Metrolink-style signalling from Bury to Rawtenstall, would the fact that the East Lancashire Railway would not look kindly upon such extra abstractions of passengers using its very own tracks be a matter soon raised in print?
The ELR sells tourist experiences, Metrolink sells public transport. They might both do so using similar principles of railway operation, but that's where the similarity ends. There is almost no overlap at all between their businesses.
 

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