Metrolink tram speculation, including possible extension to Stockport

[Purple Orange]

If you are going to pay for the tram infrastructure from Didsbury to stockport, why wouldn't you just run all the trams out there?

Terminating some short sounds like penny-wise and pound foolish

Exactly. In the bigger picture I’d suspect any extension to Stockport would be towards the back of the queue, as there are other proposals that are higher priority.

 

[daodao]

This proposal is also in tender with the Wilmslow-Styal-Airport tram-train pathfinder, which would result in services from Wilmslow potentially reaching Altrincham too.

What a stupid and profligate proposal. Extending Metrolink further into outer South Manchester suburbia is of dubious benefit; extending it even further into semi-rural East Cheshire is daft. TfGM should just get on and convert the line from central Manchester to Rose Hill via Reddish to Metrolink; they don't need a pathfinder project, and the one mentioned in your post is likely to hinder further Metrolink development as it will probably be an expensive white elephant. TfGM do have some more sensible proposals, e.g. extending Metrolink to Middleton.

If you are going to pay for the tram infrastructure from Didsbury to stockport, why wouldn't you just run all the trams out there?

Terminating some short sounds like penny-wise and pound foolish

At the other of that line, only alternate trams proceed beyond Shaw to Rochdale, presumably as there is less patronage. There is unlikely to be enough usage to justify 10 tph from Parrs Wood to Stockport town centre.

 

[javelin]

At the other of that line, only alternate trams proceed beyond Shaw to Rochdale, presumably as there is less patronage. There is unlikely to be enough usage to justify 10 tph from Parrs Wood to Stockport town centre.

Due to engineering constraints the line from Newbold to Rochdale Town Centre is single track, it is doubtful it could support higher frequency. It says nothing about demand. The proposed Oldham-Bury tram train will add another service to the stops between Shaw and Rochdale train station.

Bringing us back to Stockport, Shaw isn't any more densely populated than areas around the mid-Cheshire line, and yet the Shaw & Crompton stop is the busiest on the entire Oldham & Rochdale tram line. Perhaps your assumptions about demand could be a little off?

 

[Purple Orange]

What a stupid and profligate proposal. Extending Metrolink further into outer South Manchester suburbia is of dubious benefit; extending it even further into semi-rural East Cheshire is daft. TfGM should just get on and convert the line from central Manchester to Rose Hill via Reddish to Metrolink; they don't need a pathfinder project, and the one mentioned in your post is likely to hinder further Metrolink development as it will probably be an expensive white elephant. TfGM do have some more sensible proposals, e.g. extending Metrolink to Middleton.

At the other of that line, only alternate trams proceed beyond Shaw to Rochdale, presumably as there is less patronage. There is unlikely to be enough usage to justify 10 tph from Parrs Wood to Stockport town centre.

Surely the tram-train pathfinders cant be news to you?

And yes, given the population, 10 tph will be justified. If the internet existed in 1992, no doubt youd be saying the same to us all about running a tram to Altrincham and Bury.

 

[daodao]

Surely the tram-train pathfinders cant be news to you?

No, I was aware of them, but they are daft. TfGM should just get on and create more direct Metrolink lines between the city centre and areas of the conurbation not currently served, such as Atherton/Walkden, Reddish/Romiley/Marple and Middleton. That does not include places like Wilmslow or Styal in semi-rural East Cheshire, outwith Greater Manchester.

And yes, given the population, 10 tph will be justified.

Given that passengers from Stockport won't be using the line to travel to central Manchester, I disagree: 5 tph would suffice.

If the internet existed in 1992, no doubt you'd be saying the same to us all about running a tram to Altrincham and Bury.

No, I considered it to be an excellent idea at the time and it has proved to be so over the last 30 years. However, connectivity from Altrincham would be improved if more heavy rail trains stopped at Deansgate, as the tram crawls from St Peter's Square to Piccadilly.

 

[Purple Orange]

No, I was aware of them, but they are daft. TfGM should just get on and create more direct Metrolink lines between the city centre and areas of the conurbation not currently served, such as Atherton/Walkden, Reddish/Romiley/Marple and Middleton. That does not include places like Wilmslow or Styal in semi-rural East Cheshire, outwith Greater Manchester.


Given that passengers from Stockport won't be using the line to travel to central Manchester, I disagree.


No, I considered it to be an excellent idea at the time and it has proved to be so over the last 30 years. However, connectivity from Altrincham would be improved if more heavy rail trains stopped at Deansgate, as the tram crawls from St Peter's Square to Piccadilly.

For what’s worth, I doubt we will see a Wilmslow-Airport tram-train service, however if it is not to be utilised in this way, I’d like to see a suggestion as to how that line can be utilised in a better way. I think you’re underestimating how connected Wilmslow is to the rest of Greater Manchester and there is great scope for improvements.

Concerning Stockport to East Didsbury, you’re missing the point. It connects areas across south Greater Manchester, just like the current Rochdale metrolink line is not the fastest route to central Manchester from Rochdale, it better connects Rochdale with Oldham.

However as a priority, I’d like to see conversion of the Atherton and Glossop/Hadfield and Rose Hill lines. What seems to be the case is to implement tram-train on short stretches of metrolink (hence why Wilmslow-Airport was suggested), before investing in much more significant line.

 

[daodao]

However as a priority, I’d like to see conversion of the Atherton and Glossop/Hadfield and Rose Hill lines.

At least we agree on this point.

 

[HSTEd]

If bus regulation leads to combined mode tickets you can probably get traffic up enough for ten trams per hour to stockport because you will take a lot of traffic off the 23-25 south of Chorlton (assuming you reroute the bus slightly to connect properly), amongst other routes.

 

[cle]

Is anybody (at scale and at frequency) going between Bolton and Bury, or Rochdale and Oldham that much? It all seems like joining dots on a map, and much better suited to suburban buses in theory. I know Rochdale-Oldham is due to the old railway, it would never be built as a new alignment. None of these towns has tons going on to appeal to the other - maybe some public sector jobs and education travel? It's not like you'd go from one 'B' to another for unique shopping or a different type of night out

Whereas the Stockport-Airport line connects both of those transport/travel hubs (rather than being about the town of Stockport itself) - more employment, and of course will connect HS2 and all the business park action which should be thriving by then. And feeds London services frankly. Anyone north would travel via Piccadilly.

 

[Purple Orange]

Is anybody (at scale and at frequency) going between Bolton and Bury, or Rochdale and Oldham that much? It all seems like joining dots on a map, and much better suited to suburban buses in theory. I know Rochdale-Oldham is due to the old railway, it would never be built as a new alignment. None of these towns has tons going on to appeal to the other - maybe some public sector jobs and education travel? It's not like you'd go from one 'B' to another for unique shopping or a different type of night out

Whereas the Stockport-Airport line connects both of those transport/travel hubs (rather than being about the town of Stockport itself) - more employment, and of course will connect HS2 and all the business park action which should be thriving by then. And feeds London services frankly. Anyone north would travel via Piccadilly.

There is an issue that north Greater Manchester is not as productive as south Greater Manchester and this can be a means of assisting in helping north GM grow. As for the town centres, it wasn’t that long ago that Altrincham town centre was on it’s knees and now it is fantastic. Perhaps we can see similar rejuvenation in Bury town centre or Bolton town centre too.

 

[cle]

Agreed on Altrincham, but I don’t think it’s due to what a Bolton-Bury, for instance, Metrolink line would instigate.

Takes local leadership and willing investors and a little risk/vision, morseo than an orbital tram - all of those town/borough centres have populations which can support what happened in Alty.

Much better to invest in new Manchester links/high frequencies, and freeing up services/platforms from Picc/Vic to be reallocated.

 

[daodao]

If bus regulation leads to combined mode tickets

There already are combined mode tickets, marketed as System 1. The costly bus franchising system promoted by the regional mayor (a Westminster discard) is not needed.

Altrincham town centre was is on its knees.

Corrected that for you.

Altrincham market may have been re-generated, but from a general retail perspective, George Street has lost many stores and is full of charity and discount shops. Debenham's closed recently, and Rackham's closed in 2020. I don't expect M&S to be here very much longer - they are closing or have closed their smaller general town stores (e.g. in Macclesfield/Northwich/Stockport/Warrington). I find there is little reason to visit the town centre now.

The centres of the ring of towns that make up the Greater Manchester conurbation are not sufficient of an attraction to justify Metrolink services being developed principally to serve them, as distinct to linking them with the city centre.

 

[HSTEd]

There already are combined mode tickets, marketed as System 1. The costly bus franchising system promoted by the regional mayor (a Westminster discard) is not needed.

The combined mode tickets are so expensive as to be essentially worthless to the general population though.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Rackham's is at high risk of closure.

Thought the Rackham's (House of Fraser) store, opposite Altrincham Interchange, had already closed, back in August 2020 if I correctly recall.

 

[Purple Orange]

There already are combined mode tickets, marketed as System 1. The costly bus franchising system promoted by the regional mayor (a Westminster discard) is not needed.


Corrected that for you.

Altrincham market may have been re-generated, but from a general retail perspective, George Street has lost many stores and is full of charity and discount shops. Debenham's closed recently, and Rackham's is at high risk of closure. I don't expect M&S to be here very much longer - they are closing or have closed their smaller general town stores (e.g. in Macclesfield/Northwich/Stockport/Warrington). I find there is little reason to visit the town centre now.

The centres of the ring of towns that make up the Greater Manchester conurbation are not sufficient of an attraction to justify Metrolink services being developed principally to serve them, as distinct to linking them with the city centre.

You’re such a misery. Alti is a fantastic place to go to these days.

 

[daodao]

Thought the Rackham's (House of Fraser) store, opposite Altrincham Interchange, had already closed, back in August 2020 if I correctly recall.

Thanks for the correction. I have edited my earlier post.

 

[Purple Orange]

Agreed on Altrincham, but I don’t think it’s due to what a Bolton-Bury, for instance, Metrolink line would instigate.

Takes local leadership and willing investors and a little risk/vision, morseo than an orbital tram - all of those town/borough centres have populations which can support what happened in Alty.

Much better to invest in new Manchester links/high frequencies, and freeing up services/platforms from Picc/Vic to be reallocated.

There are of course many factors at play in the rejuvenation of a town centre, but new lines can be one of those factors. Stockport town centre needs a new lease of life and although it has great rail links, better east-west connections can tempt more people to visit from within GM.

 

[Grimsby town]

Another point that I haven't seen discussed is the amount of potential Stockport has to be re-developed with high density housing. It has good transport connections already and a tram line would reinforce this. It could also become an attractive place for business to locate as it'll be cheaper than Manchester and quicker / cheaper for staff to access from the wealthy southern areas of Manchester / North Cheshire. The proposed Stockport West development is an example of what Stockport is likely to move towards in the future and developing housing in the valley may help to revive the fortunes of the town centre.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Due to engineering constraints the line from Newbold to Rochdale Town Centre is single track.

Was it not a matter of a certain rail overbridge in the Rochdale area that was cited at the time of construction as a problem and only single track Metrolink was therefore planned in that bridge area?

For what’s worth, I doubt we will see a Wilmslow-Airport tram-train service, however if it is not to be utilised in this way, I’d like to see a suggestion as to how that line can be utilised in a better way. I think you’re underestimating how connected Wilmslow is to the rest of Greater Manchester and there is great scope for improvements.

There was until fairly recently a number 200 bus service that connected Wilmslow town centre to Manchester Airport that served areas of Wilmslow and the village of Styal and well as the National Trust property at Quarry Bank Mill (into which it called), but ask yourself why that particular bus service met its demise.

 

[yorkie]

...Perhaps we can see similar rejuvenation in Bury town centre or Bolton town centre too.

This is a very interesting topic of discussion, but can I just ask that a new thread be created in order to discuss this please? (you are welcome to provide a link to it from this one)

Many thanks

 

[edwin_m]

Just to clarify matters, with tram-train, is there any difference between sharing tracks with a heavy freight train of a much higher tonnage than a passenger train and a standard heavy-rail train. One thing springs to mind is the air pressure when tram-trains pass either of the two types of train mentioned above.

Tram-train glazing is to a railway spec, more onerous than that on simple trams (or at least was before Croydon, new ones are likely to be upgraded but not sure if it's to the full rail spec). This ought to be compatible with any aerodynamic forces encountered on a railway.

It provides a cheaper way to travel from Stockport to Media City

There may be reasons to build this line but the vagaries of tram versus train fares aren't one of them. A unified fares system would get rid of "artificial" factors like this.

I don't think it's been mentioned (apologies if it has), but one of the driving factors for tram-train to Stockport is to connect it to the Airport HS2 station before it probably loses its direct London train service.

 

[317 forever]

If bus regulation leads to combined mode tickets you can probably get traffic up enough for ten trams per hour to stockport because you will take a lot of traffic off the 23-25 south of Chorlton (assuming you reroute the bus slightly to connect properly), amongst other routes.

If Metrolink were extended from East Didsbury to Stockport, the section beyond Chorlton from Stockport would be quite close to route 23. However, as route 25 goes via Mauldeth Road station and Green End, this link would remain as important as ot is now.

 

[Grimsby town]

Tram-train glazing is to a railway spec, more onerous than that on simple trams (or at least was before Croydon, new ones are likely to be upgraded but not sure if it's to the full rail spec). This ought to be compatible with any aerodynamic forces encountered on a railway.

There may be reasons to build this line but the vagaries of tram versus train fares aren't one of them. A unified fares system would get rid of "artificial" factors like this.

I don't think it's been mentioned (apologies if it has), but one of the driving factors for tram-train to Stockport is to connect it to the Airport HS2 station before it probably loses its direct London train service.

I think you may have misunderstood my point. A lot of trips that are essentially orbital trips have to go either via Manchester City Centre or be subject to slow journey times currently. Even with a unified fair structure, travelling into the city centre is always going to be more expensive to manage demand. Hence, even if journey times are the same there are certainly cost benefits of around £2.50 per day travelling via East Didsbury to Media City. That might be enough to encourage them to abandon the M60 and take the tram.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I think you may have misunderstood my point. A lot of trips that are essentially orbital trips have to go either via Manchester City Centre or be subject to slow journey times currently. Even with a unified fair structure, travelling into the city centre is always going to be more expensive to manage demand. Hence, even if journey times are the same there are certainly cost benefits of around £2.50 per day travelling via East Didsbury to Media City. That might be enough to encourage them to abandon the M60 and take the tram.

Once again, I see only the actual route of the projected tram line is seen as being worthy of consideration.. How on earth are car drivers expected to drive from their home to access the tram than continue their journey onwards to where they are going after disembarking from the tram?

You may not have noticed but the M60 has been part of the conversion to smart motorway status, the cost of which over the years taken to complete will have borne some considerable costs financially.

 

[Grimsby town]

Once again, I see only the actual route of the projected tram line is seen as being worthy of consideration.. How on earth are car drivers expected to drive from their home to access the tram than continue their journey onwards to where they are going after disembarking from the tram?

You may not have noticed but the M60 has been part of the conversion to smart motorway status, the cost of which over the years taken to complete will have borne some considerable costs financially.

I'm obviously not being clear. This why I don't like posting on forums too much but as I've worked on proposals for this line I thought I'd chip in. I'm not saying that all journeys will be by tram, just that some might be encouraged to to switch from car for the local journeys that use the M60. I know a few people who have done such journeys for both work and lesiure and they pretty much have to use car because buses are so uncompetitive journey time wise unless you are going to an area pretty close by. For example Didsbury to Stockport is pretty well served by bus but once you get West of Didsbury the journey time starts to become very uncompetitive with car.

 

[AlastairFraser]

I'm obviously not being clear. This why I don't like posting on forums too much but as I've worked on proposals for this line I thought I'd chip in. I'm not saying that all journeys will be by tram, just that some might be encouraged to to switch from car for the local journeys that use the M60. I know a few people who have done such journeys for both work and lesiure and they pretty much have to use car because buses are so uncompetitive journey time wise unless you are going to an area pretty close by. For example Didsbury to Stockport is pretty well served by bus but once you get West of Didsbury the journey time starts to become very uncompetitive with car.

Exactly, buses across South Manchester/Stockport take an age (except for the 199, which uses the M60 and M56 between Stockport and Mcr Airport) and most orbital journeys in GM are done by car as a result, using the M60. A short, cheapish extension into Stockport from Didsbury would open up Trafford Quays from Stockport, plus Chorlton and Withington - these are large areas. It would be an easy change at Trafford Bar for Stretford and Sale too.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Exactly, buses across South Manchester/Stockport take an age (except for the 199, which uses the M60 and M56 between Stockport and Mcr Airport) and most orbital journeys in GM are done by car as a result, using the M60. A short, cheapish extension into Stockport from Didsbury would open up Trafford Quays from Stockport, plus Chorlton and Withington - these are large areas. It would be an easy change at Trafford Bar for Stretford and Sale too.

A prime example being the 11 service from Stockport to Altrincham, via Wythenshawe bus station, which serves the Cheadle town centre and Gatley areas before accessing Wythenshawe town centre. From there, on both sides of the M56, it traverses the very large social housing estates of Woodhouse Park then Newall Green before accessing the small two stance bus station at Wythenshawe Hospital. From there, via the Sharston Industrial Estate, it accesses the areas of Timperley including the Mainwood Road social housing estate, before finally arriving at Altrincham bus station. I doubt it has any attraction for end to end passengers who have that particular journey to make, but does have the attraction of being very good for short journeys from social housing estates to large town centres and of course, access into the area of Wythenshawe Hospital. The service frequency seems to have been slightly reduced of late.

 

[daodao]

Exactly, buses across South Manchester/Stockport take an age (except for the 199, which uses the M60 and M56 between Stockport and Mcr Airport) and most orbital journeys in GM are done by car as a result, using the M60. A short, cheapish extension into Stockport from Didsbury would open up Trafford Quays from Stockport, plus Chorlton and Withington - these are large areas. It would be an easy change at Trafford Bar for Stretford and Sale too.

I'm not convinced there is such a huge demand for these journeys. The hourly express bus X5 from Sale to Stockport via the M56, introduced a few years ago, has been reduced to 4 return Mon-Fri peak hour journeys (2 am, 2 pm).

The bus service from Chorlton to Stockport (formerly route 16, becoming 316 in SlELNEC days) has never been especially frequent. I used to use it regularly for a year when I worked at Stepping Hill Hospital (which was then its terminus in Stockport) to travel to my late parents' house near Southern Cemetery. Metrolink (if it had existed then) would have been no potential substitute for this journey.

On 3 occasions I have parked at Parrs Wood Metrolink station to take the tram (changing at Cornbrook) to Hope Hospital for meetings, as the parking there is problematic, but it is slow, especially winding through Salford Quays. It won't be feasible to extend any Metrolink service from the proposed terminus adjacent to Stockport bus station to the railway station to enhance connectivity, as the latter is situated much higher (at the level of the viaduct).

I agree with @Xenophon that bus journeys from Altrincham to Stockport are slow and indirect. On the one occasion when I might have used it (because my Northern Rail connection from Stockport was cancelled), I investigated whether bus 11/11A would get me to Altrincham earlier, but ascertained that it would not and it would be quicker to wait for the next train. Bus 11 is useful though for travel from Altrincham to Wythenshawe Hospital, where parking is a nightmare.

 

[Purple Orange]

I'm not convinced there is such a huge demand for these journeys. The hourly express bus X5 from Sale to Stockport via the M56, introduced a few years ago, has been reduced to 4 return Mon-Fri peak hour journeys (2 am, 2 pm).

The bus service from Chorlton to Stockport (formerly route 16, becoming 316 in SlELNEC days) has never been especially frequent. I used to use it regularly for a year when I worked at Stepping Hill Hospital (which was then its terminus in Stockport) to travel to my late parents' house near Southern Cemetery. Metrolink (if it had existed then) would have been no potential substitute for this journey.

On 3 occasions I have parked at Parrs Wood Metrolink station to take the tram (changing at Cornbrook) to Hope Hospital for meetings, as the parking there is problematic, but it is slow, especially winding through Salford Quays. It won't be feasible to extend any Metrolink service from the proposed terminus adjacent to Stockport bus station to the railway station to enhance connectivity, as the latter is situated much higher (at the level of the viaduct).

I agree with @Xenophon that bus journeys from Altrincham to Stockport are slow and indirect. On the one occasion when I might have used it (because my Northern Rail connection from Stockport was cancelled), I investigated whether bus 11/11A would get me to Altrincham earlier, but ascertained that it would not and it would be quicker to wait for the next train. Bus 11 is useful though for travel from Altrincham to Wythenshawe Hospital, where parking is a nightmare.

You can’t use bus patronage as a proxy for determining the potential patronage of a new metrolink line. You need to look at the traffic volumes for those using cars, where a tram trip can be a better alternative. An extension of the line from East Didsbury to Stockport isn’t just about Stockport town centre either, but the volume of people from Heaton Mersey & Heaton Norris that will use it to get to the city centre. It also opens up the whole of the line to Stockport station which may be a better interchange for those travelling south on heavy rail.

 

[yorksrob]

However as a priority, I’d like to see conversion of the Atherton and Glossop/Hadfield and Rose Hill lines.

At least we agree on this point.

No, not this tripe again.

Build tram links to places that need connecting, don't screw with good rail links.