Metropolitan Line Extension (MLX/Croxley Rail Link)

[jopsuk]

You missed "plus the actual track itself"

 

[davetheguard]

As I mentioned in the original post, I did wonder about the ability of the County Council to manage such an important regional scheme.

So good news that it has finally been signed off; and even better that Transport for London are to project manage it.

 

[PeterY]

You missed "plus the actual track itself"

And a bit of ballast

I wonder if platform 5 will be reinstated at Watford Junction?

 

[Nym]

Oh, and a new 300m odd of viaduct...

It does seem the project at it's estimate is quite the bargin!

Current plans do not include reinstating Platform 5 at Watford Junction, currently there are signalling cabinets and other assets in the way, not that it would be insurmountable if there was demand for additional services via the Met or DC Lines that needs the platform.

 

[THC]

Oh, and a new 300m odd of viaduct...

It does seem the project at it's estimate is quite the bargin!

You have now twice claimed that this project is a bargain (unless of course you are being ironic). Given that the project originally approved by the DfT was set to cost £118m, perhaps you could enlighten us as to what new features the extra £166.4m will buy. And I write this as a long-time supporter of the CRL.

THC

 

[Nym]

Probably because it was never costed properly in the first place and the cost of railway labor has shot up in the last 10 years?

As far as I can see as well, the project has suffered significant scope creep, not least due to the problems with the SUP Signalling Upgrade, the following are likely to have been added or changes to the scope since first estimated.

Full junction at Croxley for the branch
"Interim" signalling, colored light and trainstops.
Additional S8 stock to operate the extra distance (£12m alone, although this is highly likely to be an S7+1 with S8 seating)
Scissors Crossover between Cassiobridge and Watford Hospital

It's also possible the additional sub station was not part of the original scope.

When was it the DfT approved the project at £118m?

(Oh and all them project managers to pay...)

 

[THC]

When the TWAO was approved in July 2013 the project cost was widely cited as £118m, based on the best and final bid submitted by HCC to DfT in late 2011. While your point about labour costs is beside the point (as well as being inaccurate on timescale - we are, after all, talking less than four years), there is clearly a truth in what you say about the lack of "proper costing".

Addressing your other points in detail:

• Full junction at Croxley (Baldwins Lane) - as Watford Met was to be retained as sidings capacity under the original value-engineered 2011 plan, what exactly has changed?
• "Interim signalling" - I'll give you that, as it was originally thought that CRL would be commissioned at the same time as the new SSL signalling system. This is now not the case and will, I estimate, add a low eight-figure sum to the overall cost.
• Additional rolling stock - S7+1 or S8 is beside the point. The 2011 business case itemises an extra S8 so there's nothing extra in the final approval.
• Scissors crossover between Cassiobridge and WVR - point me to where this is itemised in the final approval. I don't recall it in the original scope (which is not to say it's not there, I just don't remember it).
• Additional substation - you may be onto something here. I'm sure that NR will have gone to HCC/TfL with their own shopping list for upgrading WHS-WJ under the scope of the project; items that were not included originally in the pared-down 2011 project.
• "All them extra project managers" - come now, that's just glib.

So that's an interim signalling system and some electrical work and infrastructure. Is that really an extra £166.4m? No - which suggests some financial limbo-dancing to bring the original costs into line with the DfT's approval bar.

THC

 

[edwin_m]

I reviewed this proposal in 2011 and at that time the Met station was very definitely planned to be closed. This was probably the version of the scheme on which the £118m costing was based, and if so the reinstatement of the Met station will be a significant part of the cost increase since then.

 

[Nym]

The scissors crossover is in the detailed design carried out by Atkins (I think it's Atkins, but I know the crossover is on it), and the sub station is required, but I do not know if it was in the old scope or not, I doubt it.

The aspirations of end state service levels have also changed, I believe it is now either 12tph or 14tph peak to Watford, this cannot he handled with the current or new design at Watford Junction, as such, it will mean peak only services to Watford Met, or additional services to terminate at Rickmansworth, the latter will not have the capacity to terminate in platform though.

Also, Baldwins Lane was not going to be a full junction, the current design has a full junction with passenger routes in all directions, the original design was single lead to reduce point work.

 

[THC]

@ edwin_m

Not quite. A value engineering exercise in mid-2011 removed plans for stabling sidings at Watford Junction and replaced them with stabling at a retained Watford Met station site. The best and final bid to DfT in late 2011 - with the £118m envelope - contained this variant. The project did not - and still does not - contain any plan to retain Watford Met for anything other than stabling. Politics is a funny old game though and who knows what other promises might be made before purdah starts next Friday?

@ Nym

Sources please. The 6tph/4tph peak/off-peak service is the preferred option outlined in this HCC report of 23 February 2015 (para 4.4 refers). Further, there was one substation already in the 2011 scope and planning documents submitted to Watford BC in early 2014 show this. For 1.2 miles of new double-track railway there wouldn't be a need for any more than that. And in response to your assertion about passenger services over the new Baldwins Lane junction I refer you to my comment to edwin_m above - there is no current plan to retain Watford Met for passenger services. None. Nada. Zilch.

The HCC report I link to above cites the reasons for project cost inflation (paras 7.2 to 7.4) as:

• risk costs being added to total project cost (c. £45m - my calculation)
• significant programme delays resulting from the CRL scheme design being both delayed and changed by disruption to LUL’s much larger signalling upgrade programme (from which CRL has now been decoupled);
• inflationary pressures on cost arising from programme delays;
• requirements from the rail industry to refurbish and enhance existing assets over and above that required to accommodate CRL alone:
• delay and disruption in the delivery of the design programme

So, according to HCC, the extra money is all about the signalling, NR's shopping list and adding the risk element. I look forward to the details.

THC

 

[davetheguard]

Does anyone have any news of progress on the Croxley Rail Link? It all seems to have gone very quiet again. The official website's latest news was about 5 months ago.

Last I heard (back in March) was that TfL was now running the project with Hertfordshire taking a back seat, but that costs had increased.

Is construction going ahead even as we speak, or is bogged down in yet more permissions/re-scoping.

 

[Chris125]

Did you try searching Google News? The latest I've found is this: Croxley Rail Link will not be completed until 2020, documents reveal

David Hughes, Director of Major Programme Sponsorship, London Underground, said: “In March, following a request from the Government, we agreed to take over responsibility for the Croxley Rail Link.

We are currently undertaking a detailed assessment of the work required to take over the service. This will then enable us to confirm the expected opening date of the extension.”

Ana Vaughan, spokesman for Hertfordshire County Council said: “We are in the process of transitioning the project across to London Underground, which is going well and nothing has changed since this was first announced in April 2015"

We understand that London Underground is still planning for work to start on the line later this year.

Chris

 

[matt_world2004]

Watford Met should be retained as a siding and for filming purposes once The Croxley rail link opens. It is probably one of the few stations where a mainline and LU stock can use. There is also Elstree down the road Rename it walford east and rent it out to eastenders.

 

[Dstock7080]

Does anyone have any news of progress on the Croxley Rail Link? It all seems to have gone very quiet again. The official website's latest news was about 5 months ago.

Last I heard (back in March) was that TfL was now running the project with Hertfordshire taking a back seat, but that costs had increased.

Posted on internal intranet:
"Metropolitan Line Extension (MLE)
Otherwise known as the Croxley Rail Link, the newly named Metropolitan Line Extension is due to be handed over to TfL from Hertfordshire County Council on 10 September 2015. The project has been designed to deliver a long-standing need to link Watford town centre with the London Underground.
The extension of the Metropolitan line from Croxley to Watford Junction will involve the closure of the existing Watford Metropolitan line station but will see the creation of two new stations, Cassiobridge and Watford Vicarage Road. The line will link to current London Overground services at Watford High Street, before terminating at Watford Junction where it will interchange with the West Coast Mainline services."

 

[davetheguard]

Posted on internal intranet:
"Metropolitan Line Extension (MLE)
Otherwise known as the Croxley Rail Link, the newly named Metropolitan Line Extension is due to be handed over to TfL from Hertfordshire County Council on 10 September 2015. The project has been designed to deliver a long-standing need to link Watford town centre with the London Underground.
The extension of the Metropolitan line from Croxley to Watford Junction will involve the closure of the existing Watford Metropolitan line station but will see the creation of two new stations, Cassiobridge and Watford Vicarage Road. The line will link to current London Overground services at Watford High Street, before terminating at Watford Junction where it will interchange with the West Coast Mainline services."

Thanks for this Dstock7080. Hmm, "Metropolitan Line Extension": I quite like the sound of that! Seems to have a better ring to it somehow than "Croxley Rail Link"; just as, for me, High Speed 1 sounded better than CTRL.

 

[34D]

So does anyone know what will become of the current Cassiobury terminus?

 

[swt_passenger]

So does anyone know what will become of the current Cassiobury terminus?

Overnight stabling is the usual answer. It's been said many times it won't remain open as a public station.

 

[NSEFAN]

Just over a year to the date I last asked this question, but are the old stations on the line still intact and visible or have they now been demolished? I'm thinking of going to have a look before heading to Watford Met for the LUL steam train this weekend.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Overnight stabling is the usual answer. It's been said many times it won't remain open as a public station.

I heard somewhere (possibly here!) that the buildings, platforms etc will be retained and maintained as a TV/film set...

 

[D365]

I heard somewhere (possibly here!) that the buildings, platforms etc will be retained and maintained as a TV/film set...

Don't they have enough film sets already?

To be fair that would make sense, if they're going to keep the spur intact and operational.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Don't they have enough film sets already?

To be fair that would make sense, if they're going to keep the spur intact and operational.

They have Aldwych for underground scenes but nothing for the surface, presumably if that is what's happening they must have identified demand for it. I'm looking forward to seeing a TV show or film where someone boards a deep tube train and later alights from SSL stock!

 

[Hadders]

They also have the disused Jubilee Line platforms at Charing Cross for more modern deep level tube filming requirements.

 

[NSEFAN]

If anyone is interested, Watford West and Watford Stadium platforms are still in place for now. However the street signage for Croxley Green and Watford West have been removed.

 

[swt_passenger]

Statement in the July TfL board papers about Watford Met:

7.4 The Mayor agreed in 2013 to the closure of the existing Watford Metropolitan station when the Croxley Rail Link becomes operational. The closed Watford Metropolitan station has the capability to stable five trains overnight and to serve as a reversing point for Metropolitan line trains.
https://tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/board-20150701-part-1-item12-croxley-rail-link.pdf

 

[Dstock7080]

TfL now have dedicated webpage on Metropolitan Line extension:
https://tfl.gov.uk/travel-information/improvements-and-projects/metropolitan-line-extension

 

[THC]

Following the project’s transfer to TfL, there’s a paper going to TfL Board on 4 November. Its main recommendations are:

1. reconfirmation and reauthorisation of previous approvals and agreements with HCC and others so that the project can proceed;
2. the confirmation of the project funding envelope of £284.4m including risk at P50 level (P80 level is £304.68m); and
3. the need for a further Mayoral direction to account for TfL needing to provide up to a further £2.73m of funding in addition to the £46.5m TfL was directed to fund on 26 March 2015.

Point 2 is despite the P50 project costs having risen to £298.5m, largely as HCC had higher than expected sunk costs on project transfer. The P50 and P80 (project and finance envelopes) are to remain for now pending a full post-transfer cost review by TfL.

Point 3 is to account for the inflated valuation of two pieces of land included in the HCC contribution that are of no commercial value to TfL. One of them – the Croxley Green branch trackbed – was valued at HCC at £1.8m despite being acquired from Network Rail for the princely sum of £1! Naughty.

Procurement Authority for the construction of the infrastructure works, acquisition of rolling stock and systems works is expected to be sought from the TfL Finance and Policy Committee in the New Year.

THC

 

[Harlan Cage]

The current Watford Met Station will become a stabling point for trains as there Croxley Green Depot is long gone and there is not the space at Watford Jct.

There has been a potential set back to this scheme this week with Hertfordshire County Council effectively walking away from this project and offering the trackbed of the former Croxley Green Branch to TFL for £1. Expecting TFL to pick up this additional cost may well be a bridge too far (pun intended) for a project many miles from central London.

HC

 

[Wolfie]

The current Watford Met Station will become a stabling point for trains as there Croxley Green Depot is long gone and there is not the space at Watford Jct.

There has been a potential set back to this scheme this week with Hertfordshire County Council effectively walking away from this project and offering the trackbed of the former Croxley Green Branch to TFL for £1. Expecting TFL to pick up this additional cost may well be a bridge too far (pun intended) for a project many miles from central London.

HC

Frankly as a London council taxpayer I would violently object to one penny piece of my contribution being used to subsidise/improve transport in Hertfordshire if HCC won't contribute.

 

[swt_passenger]

There has been a potential set back to this scheme this week with Hertfordshire County Council effectively walking away from this project and offering the trackbed of the former Croxley Green Branch to TFL for £1.
HC

That seems to be a misunderstanding of the situation, the mayoral decision paper linked in the previous post by THC clearly states that it has been valued at too a high figure, having been previously bought by HCC, from NR, for only £1.

That is completely different to it being offered to TfL for £1.

 

[Wolfie]

That seems to be a misunderstanding of the situation, the mayoral decision paper linked in the previous post by THC clearly states that it has been valued at too a high figure, having been previously bought by HCC, from NR, for only £1.

That is completely different to it being offered to TfL for £1.

Now that makes more sense....