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Middle lane driving: your views?

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radamfi

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The proposed fine for tailgating are insignificant compared to the ones in the Netherlands:

http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bumperkleven

where the fine for tailgating at speeds 100-120 km/h is €380 if you are more than 3 metres away and €480 if you are less than 3 metres away, with prosecution for higher speeds. An 8 month driving ban is possible.
 
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carriageline

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I still believe the country could do with a overhaul of the learning/testing system. The fact only a tiny tiny percentage do any learning on the motorway at all is very bad, and that's just the tip of the iceberg.
 

jon0844

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They were a scam when they were placed in areas that weren't accident blackspots and the limit had been changed from 60/70 to 40/50.

People not breaking the law yesterday were suddenly criminals the next day. Kerching.

Essex were the worst, but the people on the SCPs made themselves a lot of money (nice salaries and expenses) so the not-for-profit line was true and b***ocks at the same time. And then the rules about siting a camera within xx miles of a blackspot, but as the crow flies. Funny how this meant cameras on totally different roads, but within that distance.

Around here, a country road was once 60mph and down to 30mph as it approached my road (then 20mph very shortly after). For some unknown reason, the council has decided that people can't go from 60 to 30, so have inserted a huge section of 40mph on the previous 60mph stretch. The road here is no different to the miles of 60mph limit after it, so why the hell did we need to have a traffic order to change the speed limit for a few hundred yards? And if I just went to 60 after leaving the 30, I'd be done for speeding! What a wasteful exercise to have councils and the Highways Agency creating these 'buffer zones' because they've decided motorists are incapable of coping with a change in speed of 30mph.

Can you imagine if this happened everywhere? (Good work creation exercise). 70mph, 60, 50, 40, 30, 20mph signs off a motorway and into town - such as Islington, the first London borough to introduce a 20mph blanket limit throughout the borough. Nobody on the major roads is taking any notice of it, and the police think it's a joke on main roads.

I am not saying speed cameras are a bad thing - near blackspots they're very effective, but nearly everyone speeds at one time or another (or those who rely on their car speedos are always going slower than the limit). Even the police wouldn't argue that there aren't times where accelerating can get you out of a problem, hence no desire for cars to limit your speed and causing a crash.

I get that speed plays a factor in every accident, but speeding became the number one enemy in the 90/00s and people were brainwashed to a degree that some people just drove looking at their speedo and nothing else.

Clearly given how badly people drive, hence these new powers being introduced to give FPNs, they figure that if they're doing the speed limit then there can't be anything wrong with their driving. Totally ridiculous.

FWIW, I probably drive slower than just about everyone else in and around town. I keep to the limit (or lower) because there are obvious, identifiable risks. In rain, fog or ice, you adjust for the conditions - so you won't see me wrapped around a tree, down a ditch or tail ending someone (but, of course, I might be rear ended).

On a motorway, I'll often drive at 80-85mph to maintain the flow of traffic - but I'd also accept any fine and points because I know it's illegal, even if the police won't usually bat an eyelid at 85mph or less.

It's about driving to the conditions and, personally, increasing the limit to 80mph isn't going to make me suddenly go faster as 80-85 is a comfortable speed that still retains some degree of fuel efficiency. Go to 90 or beyond and it would be far too expensive for most people to get anywhere. I'll admit that some people will see things different and go faster, but don't see that as a reason to hold everyone else back.
 

notadriver

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On a motorway, I'll often drive at 80-85mph to maintain the flow of traffic - but I'd also accept any fine and points because I know it's illegal, even if the police won't usually bat an eyelid at 85mph or less.

It's about driving to the conditions and, personally, increasing the limit to 80mph isn't going to make me suddenly go faster as 80-85 is a comfortable speed that still retains some degree of fuel efficiency. Go to 90 or beyond and it would be far too expensive for most people to get anywhere. I'll admit that some people will see things different and go faster, but don't see that as a reason to hold everyone else back.

So basically you're above the law because you feel its okay and would accept the fine? Disgusting.
 

chorleyjeff

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They were a scam when they were placed in areas that weren't accident blackspots and the limit had been changed from 60/70 to 40/50.

People not breaking the law yesterday were suddenly criminals the next day. Kerching.

Essex were the worst, but the people on the SCPs made themselves a lot of money (nice salaries and expenses) so the not-for-profit line was true and b***ocks at the same time. And then the rules about siting a camera within xx miles of a blackspot, but as the crow flies. Funny how this meant cameras on totally different roads, but within that distance.

Around here, a country road was once 60mph and down to 30mph as it approached my road (then 20mph very shortly after). For some unknown reason, the council has decided that people can't go from 60 to 30, so have inserted a huge section of 40mph on the previous 60mph stretch. The road here is no different to the miles of 60mph limit after it, so why the hell did we need to have a traffic order to change the speed limit for a few hundred yards? And if I just went to 60 after leaving the 30, I'd be done for speeding! What a wasteful exercise to have councils and the Highways Agency creating these 'buffer zones' because they've decided motorists are incapable of coping with a change in speed of 30mph.

Can you imagine if this happened everywhere? (Good work creation exercise). 70mph, 60, 50, 40, 30, 20mph signs off a motorway and into town - such as Islington, the first London borough to introduce a 20mph blanket limit throughout the borough. Nobody on the major roads is taking any notice of it, and the police think it's a joke on main roads.

I am not saying speed cameras are a bad thing - near blackspots they're very effective, but nearly everyone speeds at one time or another (or those who rely on their car speedos are always going slower than the limit). Even the police wouldn't argue that there aren't times where accelerating can get you out of a problem, hence no desire for cars to limit your speed and causing a crash.

I get that speed plays a factor in every accident, but speeding became the number one enemy in the 90/00s and people were brainwashed to a degree that some people just drove looking at their speedo and nothing else.

Clearly given how badly people drive, hence these new powers being introduced to give FPNs, they figure that if they're doing the speed limit then there can't be anything wrong with their driving. Totally ridiculous.

FWIW, I probably drive slower than just about everyone else in and around town. I keep to the limit (or lower) because there are obvious, identifiable risks. In rain, fog or ice, you adjust for the conditions - so you won't see me wrapped around a tree, down a ditch or tail ending someone (but, of course, I might be rear ended).

On a motorway, I'll often drive at 80-85mph to maintain the flow of traffic - but I'd also accept any fine and points because I know it's illegal, even if the police won't usually bat an eyelid at 85mph or less.

It's about driving to the conditions and, personally, increasing the limit to 80mph isn't going to make me suddenly go faster as 80-85 is a comfortable speed that still retains some degree of fuel efficiency. Go to 90 or beyond and it would be far too expensive for most people to get anywhere. I'll admit that some people will see things different and go faster, but don't see that as a reason to hold everyone else back.

It is very simple. Stick to the speed limits. Otherwise break the law and face possible consequences. I know nice middle class people should be able to break the law with no sanction because they are good law abiding citizens!
 

starrymarkb

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I stick to 70ish these days. Mainly as now I can see the difference in fuel burn with my trip computer - 10 miles per gallon more = extra 100 miles per tank
 

radamfi

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Arguments about driving behaviour will continue forever until we have mandatory computer driven cars. GPS based speed limiters would be a start, preventing the car from speeding. There was a lot of publicity about them a few years ago but they haven't heard about them recently. It would be nice to have a cut in insurance in return for the installation of such a device. Fully automated driving could really slash premiums, probably meaning no need for third party insurance.
 

ralphchadkirk

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Arguments about driving behaviour will continue forever until we have mandatory computer driven cars. GPS based speed limiters would be a start, preventing the car from speeding. There was a lot of publicity about them a few years ago but they haven't heard about them recently. It would be nice to have a cut in insurance in return for the installation of such a device. Fully automated driving could really slash premiums, probably meaning no need for third party insurance.

Zoe under another name? :)
 

jb

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I think we can all agree that many (most?) drivers are dimwits behind the wheel. I am therefore somewhat puzzled as to why we should implicitly accept drivers' discretion and judgment as to what is the appropriate speed. Precisely because they're pretty incapable of discretion or judgment.

I have zero sympathy for people who break speed limits and get pinged by speed cameras, mostly because I do not value such drivers' opinions as to what the speed limit should be. I would happily welcome covert speed cameras pretty much everywhere. And before you say it, no the "civil liberties" of drivers to break speed limits are not of any value.
 

455driver

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For the record i prefer the outside lane i actually feel safer i nearly hit the back of a wagon on a fogbound M62 in lane 1 many years ago and i think it still bothers me. I just feel that it wont happen in lane 3.

So you were driving too fast for the prevalent weather conditions then!

You should be able to stop in the distance you can see to be clear the buck stops with your right foot!
 

ralphchadkirk

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Interestingly, in 2010, excessive speed was cited as a factor in 39% of fatal accidents. And that's with Germany's completely different culture of speed and safety, and their far more strict car safety rules and driver training.
 

jon0844

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So basically you're above the law because you feel its okay and would accept the fine? Disgusting.

I am not above the law. I have been stopped by the police and had points (but that was 15 years ago).

I accept the consequences of my actions. I consider tailgating, driving under the influence, using a mobile phone, middle lane hogging and jumping lights (plus many more I could think of) to all be significantly more dangerous than going faster on a motorway.

Speed cameras are useless for all of those things, hence the falling standards on the roads caused by the reduction of police enforcement. People get more and more brave when they are not punished for their actions.

Nobody is compelled to agree with me. It's a forum and I'm allowed an opinion.

If we got more traffic police, I'd stand more chance of being stopped. And on motorways, if there's roadworks (with or without SPECS) I will always stick to the limit. You'll never see me shooting between lanes at speed to fill any gap or doing anything dangerous - but in a straight line on an open road, I'm sorry that I don't have any bad feeling about nudging over the limit.

Clearly a significant percentage of other motorists also speed on motorways, hence the desire to raise the limit - which must be giving some people heart attacks at the sheer thought of it.
 

Buttsy

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Clearly a significant percentage of other motorists also speed on motorways, hence the desire to raise the limit - which must be giving some people heart attacks at the sheer thought of it.

The issue with raising speed limits on the motorway is more down to the speed differential between large commercial vehicles and cars, vans and motorbikes. A truck pulling out to overtake a sufficiently slower moving vehicle will find it more awkward to achieve and no doubt annoy all those middle lane hioggers who can now sit there doing 80 rather than 70.

If teh sped limit is raised to 80, then you can argue for commercial vehicles having their speed limit raised from 60 to 70 to counter-act the potential speed differential. A truck having an accident at 70mph is likely to increase the carnage than if it were doing 60.

It is the speed differential that has stopped the limit being increased following a number of studies into the potential effects of the change.

The above is based on my memory of seeing the answer to an online petition to the government about raising the limit to 80.
 

jon0844

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In Germany, they have daytime overtaking restrictions on lorries, caravans etc on many roads (especially two lane roads).

That is a problem that will have to be addressed here, and is the one reason for arguing against speed limit increases.. but it is not because of the people driving fast, but rather people who can't judge speed very well or simply pull out to 'make a point'. I've heard many drivers on forums and on TV state that they're quite happy to 'teach' others to slow down, seemingly happy to put themselves and others at risk to police the roads.

This doesn't happen in Germany, and as a result you can have vehicles at VERY different speeds travel alongside each other without collision and conflict.

I am certainly not for speed limits to be raised elsewhere, but - that said - I'd like all of those limit reductions done over a decade to be reconsidered. What riles me is that many dual carriageways and motorways got speed limit cuts, but around here I can think of many roads where speed limits are still too high.

In addition, there's a section the A414 near Smallford that has a very effective design to force cars to slow down and give way, making it safer for the three roads that join. That has been like that for some time, complete with signs to say 'slow down' if going over 50mph (and that limit is ONLY for the junction, quickly going back to 70mph).

Yet, go further east and between Amwell and Harlow and Essex has opted to just put up two Gatso cameras and a limit cut to 50mph. Sadly, many motorists ignore the limit (and simply slow for the cameras). It might mean a lot of people get caught by the camera, but so bloody what? Why hasn't the council redesigned the road to design out accidents? Because one option would have cost money, another made money.

Next time someone is fatally injured there, I am sure the family will be very pleased to know that the killer might have been captured on film.
 

jb

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If we got more traffic police, I'd stand more chance of being stopped. And on motorways, if there's roadworks (with or without SPECS) I will always stick to the limit. You'll never see me shooting between lanes at speed to fill any gap or doing anything dangerous - but in a straight line on an open road, I'm sorry that I don't have any bad feeling about nudging over the limit.

In the interests of fairness and equity, I do perceive that roadworks and the speed limits therein are pretty well observed. I am also impressed at how well variable speed limits seem to be observed and to work where I have seen them implemented (on the M25 when traffic is heavy).

If I saw that similar responsibility was also being exercised more generally, I wouldn't take the position I do. But I most definitely do not.
 

tbtc

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100 mph is illegal here. It wasn't always, but is now. It isn't in Germany and so I can conclude that driving at 100 mph can't automatically mean dangerous driving

Presumably there are countries in the world where the "drink drive" definitions are more generous than the UK one.

Would that lead you to conclude that drinking more than the UK limit isn't dangerous?
 

Buttsy

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In Germany, they have daytime overtaking restrictions on lorries, caravans etc on many roads (especially two lane roads).

That is a problem that will have to be addressed here, and is the one reason for arguing against speed limit increases.. but it is not because of the people driving fast, but rather people who can't judge speed very well or simply pull out to 'make a point'. I've heard many drivers on forums and on TV state that they're quite happy to 'teach' others to slow down, seemingly happy to put themselves and others at risk to police the roads.

This doesn't happen in Germany, and as a result you can have vehicles at VERY different speeds travel alongside each other without collision and conflict.

I think that makes the point that better education, test procedures and enforcement produced better drivers which allows limits to be amended. At the moment in the UK, the majority of drivers, such as myself (mid 40s), passed a half-hour test and were immediately allowed behind the wheel of a leathal weapon...

On the A34 northbound just as the road goes over the Ridgeway there is a no lorries over 7.5 tonnes in the outside lane up the hill sign. Guess how often that's ignored by HGVs & coaches...
 

radamfi

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There are enough emissions, fuel consumed and noise at 70 mph without raising the limit higher.

On the A34 northbound just as the road goes over the Ridgeway there is a no lorries over 7.5 tonnes in the outside lane up the hill sign. Guess how often that's ignored by HGVs & coaches...

That sign only applies to HGVs so coaches can use the outside lane, even if they weigh over 7.5 tonnes.
 

jon0844

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Presumably there are countries in the world where the "drink drive" definitions are more generous than the UK one.

Would that lead you to conclude that drinking more than the UK limit isn't dangerous?

I think that our drink drive limit is too high. At the very least we should adopt the EU standard. Sweden is stricter still.

I see what you're suggesting, but to imply that a higher speed limit would mean someone might argue for a higher drink drive limit is a bit, erm, desperate.
 

tbtc

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I see what you're suggesting, but to imply that a higher speed limit would mean someone might argue for a higher drink drive limit is a bit, erm, desperate.

I'm just following your "another country has a different limit to the UK, so I can conclude that exceeding our current limit isn't automatically dangerous" argument.

I'm happy to comply with the current laws/ limits.
 

jon0844

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You can argue about a speed limit on any road. Government policy has influenced some changes, as well as the growing pressure to reduce limits for environmental reasons.

I am not sure that translates to arguing about drink drive limits.
 

Crossover

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Exactly.

It's not speed per se that's dangerous. It's inappropriate speed that's dangerous...

Reminds me of the quote by Jeremy Clarkson...
"Speed has never killed anyone. Suddenly becoming stationary, that's what gets you."
 

samxool

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i hate all this hate on middle lane drivers.
I hate the slow lane. i guess it is a prestiege thing.
I drive a Merc. I wouldn't be seen dead in the slow lane.
When i get on a motorway, I choose my lane, and I stick to it. Its all the idiots changing lanes that are dangerous.

There's nothing wrong with my driving style. No points on my licence, never been pulled over, etc.
 

jon0844

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Despite the obvious humour, how many people really do think we have slow and fast lanes? Rather a lot I expect.
 

90019

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i hate all this hate on middle lane drivers.
I hate the slow lane. i guess it is a prestiege thing.
I drive a Merc. I wouldn't be seen dead in the slow lane.
When i get on a motorway, I choose my lane, and I stick to it. Its all the idiots changing lanes that are dangerous.

There's nothing wrong with my driving style. No points on my licence, never been pulled over, etc.

I really hope you're not serious.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
how many people really do think we have slow and fast lanes? Rather a lot I expect.
I've always thought that's likely to be a fairly big part of lane hogging - people who consider lane one to be the slow lane, think "I'm not slow" and then refuse to use it.
 
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Antman

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i hate all this hate on middle lane drivers.
I hate the slow lane. i guess it is a prestiege thing.
I drive a Merc. I wouldn't be seen dead in the slow lane.
When i get on a motorway, I choose my lane, and I stick to it. Its all the idiots changing lanes that are dangerous.

There's nothing wrong with my driving style. No points on my licence, never been pulled over, etc.

Surely this has to be a wind up?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I think that makes the point that better education, test procedures and enforcement produced better drivers which allows limits to be amended. At the moment in the UK, the majority of drivers, such as myself (mid 40s), passed a half-hour test and were immediately allowed behind the wheel of a leathal weapon...

On the A34 northbound just as the road goes over the Ridgeway there is a no lorries over 7.5 tonnes in the outside lane up the hill sign. Guess how often that's ignored by HGVs & coaches...


Although if a lorry is already in the outside lane in the process of overtaking it may not be possible to get back into the inside lane safely?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Reminds me of the quote by Jeremy Clarkson...
"Speed has never killed anyone. Suddenly becoming stationary, that's what gets you."

OMG...........lets not rely on Clarkson for driving tips:(
 
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ralphchadkirk

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I propose an addition to Godwins Law - anyone who mentions or quotes Jeremy Clarkson as a method of supporting their argument in a topic about driving should immediately loose all credibility.
 
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