Midland Main Line, 125 mph from 8 December 2013

[shinkansen1966]

From Sunday 8 December 2013, the Midland Main line (MML) joins the 125 mph club. There are some small but welcome journey time reductions. Sheffield to London services are speeded up by around 7 minutes with some fast trains taking 2 h 00 and the semi-fasts taking 2 hr 10.

Nottingham to London journey times have been reduced by around 3 minutes.

You can see why Market Harborough has two trains per hour from London. What I do not understand is why the fast Nottingham train calls there, rather than the semi-fast Sheffield train.

The speed restriction, platform lengths and alignment through Market Haborough continues after these recent upgrade. Trying to find the link which says that MH curve will be dealt with when the Midland Main Line is electrified by 2019-21.

Nevertheless, it’s all a great an improvement on the MML service when I started using it in the early 80s. From the Sheffield, there was a train to London every 60-90 minutes with journey times of 2 hours 30 mins. Now it’s 30 minutes quicker and trains every 30 minutes.

 

[SF-02]

Good news. Any predictions of how much quicker electrification will make the trips?

Interesting to read it's quicker than 20 years ago. Rather different to the great western line, with journeys now 10-20 minutes slower than the 70s.

 

[dk1]

Good news. Any predictions of how much quicker electrification will make the trips?

Interesting to read it's quicker than 20 years ago. Rather different to the great western line, with journeys now 10-20 minutes slower than the 70s.

Frequency is now greater on the Western plus there has been huge growth from the intermediate stations.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

You can see why Market Harborough has two trains per hour from London. What I do not understand is why the fast Nottingham train calls there, rather than the semi-fast Sheffield train.

The Sheffield semi-fast (or at least some of them) are used to ferry MegabusPlus passengers to/from East Midlands Parkway, so perhaps this is a factor in terms of load management?

 

[SF-02]

Frequency is now greater on the Western plus there has been huge growth from the intermediate stations.

Yep I know. Though there are some trains at quieter times like after 8pm that seem to have an awful lot of slack. Frequencies are lower then & congestion at Reading not such a problem. Temple Meads to Paddington in around 90 mins at such times would be good so as to arrive earlier in London and make it easier to make later connecting trains.

 

[shinkansen1966]

Frequency is now greater on the Western plus there has been huge growth from the intermediate stations.

Exactly.

MML services and frequencies have been transformed over the last 30 years.

In that time:

• frequencies doubled or even better
• high frequency electric commuter service as the southern end of the line. Prior to 1982, it was a diesel service prior to BedPan electrification.
• St Pancras transformed - see praising commentary ad nausem
• Meridian multiple units - which I think are some of the better new age DMUs
• some journey times reduce by 30 minutes
• And if Wiki is right, Market Harborough (for instance) passenger useage up 40% in under 10 years.

 

[Qwerty133]

shame that it's ruining connections at leicester. xx:50 arrival from Birmingham and xx:47 from Standsted will no longer connect into the Nottingham train. But as proven time and time again leicester is treated as a second class city by EMT

 

[Cherry_Picker]

How do you mean? Surely if you live in Leicester then those connections are meaningless?

 

[YorkshireBear]

How do you mean? Surely if you live in Leicester then those connections are meaningless?

Glad i am not the only one who thought that....

Leicester is hardly the runt is it.... non stop trains to London every hour. Must be awful.

 

[CallySleeper]

From Sunday 8 December 2013, the Midland Main line (MML) joins the 125 mph club.

I'm sorry but I'd disagree with this slightly. Correct me if I'm wrong, but where is the 125mph running, other than Derby - Sheffield? Is it the stretch which was tested previously just south of Bedford?

I've had a comparative look at the journey times and "3 minutes" from London to Nottingham is really nothing to be shouting about. If anything, three minutes is what's gained on some trains between EMP and Nottingham just in reduced pathing allowance now that the new Nottingham layout has bedded in. I would expect greater journey time reductions and more extensive 125mph running before classing the MML as a 125mph. I understand from a number of sources including this article that 125mph will start to come in in the main from the Spring, after bridge adjustments are completed.

Until then though, the MML is to me still a 110mph railway.

(I do support all of the improvements listed over the last 10-15 years)

 

[cle]

Ironically, won't electrification benefit semi-fasts more than fast services, due to the amount of stops and therefore savings per deceleration/acceleration?

This is why it'll be so good for the GWML (besides clunky HSTs and their manual doors), it's the fact that both Cardiff and Bristol are usually the 5th or 6th stop. If it's saving 2-3 mins per stop, that adds up.

Might we get to the point where you take a few calls from one type of service and give it to the other (so there are no true fasts or semis) and have more equal streams of journey times? On the MML anyway - more skip stopping might allow more paths?

 

[shinkansen1966]

I understand from a number of sources including this article that 125mph will start to come in in the main from the Spring, after bridge adjustments are completed

Interesting.

So we expect further journey time reductions from March 2014 ?

 

[43074]

shame that it's ruining connections at leicester. xx:50 arrival from Birmingham and xx:47 from Stansted will no longer connect into the Nottingham train. But as proven time and time again leicester is treated as a second class city by EMT

Really? We get 2 non-stop and 2 semi-fast services per hour to London formed of Meridians and HSTs, the fastest of which will take just 63 mins in the December 2013 timetable.

Other connections such as Melton Mowbray to Derby etc. actually save a few minutes on their journey times and anyway most people from Loughborough etc. travel to Birmingham via Derby so connections like those you quoted are trivial. As already pointed out, it's not Leicester being treated as a second class city anyway, it's the passengers who have to change at Leicester.

The new journey times are nothing to sing and dance about though...

 

[asylumxl]

I'm sorry but I'd disagree with this slightly. Correct me if I'm wrong, but where is the 125mph running, other than Derby - Sheffield? Is it the stretch which was tested previously just south of Bedford?

Until then though, the MML is to me still a 110mph railway.

As far as I'm aware there is many more sections than that.

Most sections of the UF/DF will have an incremental speed increase. North of Radlett there will be 125mph running until speed restrictions near St Albans. Then the speed rises back up towards and through Harpenden, with minor speed restrictions all the way till the curves near Luton Airport Parkway and Luton. Then, yet again, the speed will rise to 125mph through Leagrave and nearly all the way to Bedford.

The test you refer to was done through the Ampthill tunnel to ensure the ventilation was up to scratch.

The reality is that the southern end of the MML already has a good average speed. Line speed is achieved far closer to London than on the likes of the ECML.

 

[Qwerty133]

Really? We get 2 non-stop and 2 semi-fast services per hour to London formed of Meridians and HSTs, the fastest of which will take just 63 mins in the December 2013 timetable.

Other connections such as Melton Mowbray to Derby etc. actually save a few minutes on their journey times and anyway most people from Loughborough etc. travel to Birmingham via Derby so connections like those you quoted are trivial. As already pointed out, it's not Leicester being treated as a second class city anyway, it's the passengers who have to change at Leicester.

The new journey times are nothing to sing and dance about though...

Service wise, yes Leicester doesn't do bad, however it is often forgotten about when EMT do promototions eg:free rolls this morning at Deby Nottingham and Sheffield.
Also as for the connections although not from Birmingham itself they are well used from Narborugh and Hinckley.
And to the people who say if your at leicester connections don't matter, I don't actually live in Leicester itself but in the Narborough area.
But yes the comment probably was quite harsh on EMT, probably as they(mainly 1 member of staff) have annoyed me today.

 

[yorksrob]

The MML has come on wonderfully in the last few decades. For scenery I far prefer it to the ECML.

I hope the four hour evening pootle from St Pancreas to Leeds on the InterCity 125 isn't affected too much

 

[Tomnick]

...most people from Loughborough etc. travel to Birmingham via Derby...

...largely because of the poor connections at Leicester! Loughborough - Derby suffers from a quite late start in Down services and a very early finish on the Up. There are a couple of ECS moves from Leicester to Derby (and Nottingham) in the morning, and back in the evening, and at least one of these (in the morning) used to run in service and call at Loughborough...sadly no more!

 

[tbtc]

The MML has come on wonderfully in the last few decades

Yup - its gone from two trains an hour (on the Leicester to London section) to four trains an hour - hardly treating Leicester like a second class city!

National Express used to do a lot of things right.

For scenery I far prefer it to the ECML

It's much prettier than the ECML which is largely flat and boring between London and Darlington - only really scenic for a brief section at Durham and then from Gateshead to Edinburgh.

I hope the four hour evening pootle from St Pancreas to Leeds on the InterCity 125 isn't affected too much

I don't think it'll be affected much (until 2019/2020 when the line is electrified to Sheffield and direct trains from St Pancras to Leeds are withdrawn, along with HSTs)

 

[ryan125hst]

I'm pleased to see that the Midland Main Line has been upgraded to allow these higher speeds. The ECML, WCML and GWML all benefit from 125mph capable trains and line speeds. Now, at last, 125mph capable trains will be able to go at this speed on the MML! Those Meridians must have rarely reached 125- except for during testing, the Saturday only run between Doncaster and York and, of course, the ex Hull Trains Pioneers.

I do agree with the journey time improvements though- three minutes isn't much! I wonder if these can be improved further?

Might we get to the point where you take a few calls from one type of service and give it to the other (so there are no true fasts or semis) and have more equal streams of journey times? On the MML anyway - more skip stopping might allow more paths?

The only problem with skip stopping is it makes travelling between two stations difficult. Take the ECML on a Saturday for example. If you want to travel from Retford to Newark North Gate you are out of luck. The trains that call at Retford have come down from Edinburgh, but them miss out Newark, call at Grantham and Peterborough and then go straight to Kings Cross. You can change at Peterborough for Stevenage, and Doncaster for Leeds when travelling Northbound, but it is impossible to get to Newark!

Your only options are to either via Grantham or Doncaster, but this means you have to buy two tickets and it makes it very expensive, or go via Lincoln.

Looking at the timetable, I'm wondering why they don't make the Leeds trains call at Retford every two hours- they stop everywhere else! A direct train to Edinburgh from Retford isn't needed because passengers would be able to change at Doncaster.

 

[CallySleeper]

Most sections of the UF/DF will have an incremental speed increase. North of Radlett there will be 125mph running until speed restrictions near St Albans. Then the speed rises back up towards and through Harpenden, with minor speed restrictions all the way till the curves near Luton Airport Parkway and Luton. Then, yet again, the speed will rise to 125mph through Leagrave and nearly all the way to Bedford.

What about north of Bedford?

I've had a look at the timings Bedford - St Pancras and can't see much of a difference in the December timetable. Maybe it will be a good few months yet before 125mph running is actually implemented?

 

[IKBrunel]

With the linespeed, OHLE, & station refurbs, it's quite an overhaul for the MML. At least it will be less of an embarassment with International travellers changing from Eurostar services in future.

Does anyone have any thoughts on whether the December timetable will make any improvement on the Leicester-Lincoln route? or any of the later line changes?

It's still late more often than on time going North (ex-Leicester) in the evenings, usually by 5-10 minutes.

I've been told it's to do with a conflict of paths in Leicester with a Fast service on platform 3, which usually delays it.

Also does anyone know if there are any plans to lengthen the remaining short platforms (Beeston & Market Harborough)?

 

[yorksrob]

Looking at the timetable, I'm wondering why they don't make the Leeds trains call at Retford every two hours- they stop everywhere else! A direct train to Edinburgh from Retford isn't needed because passengers would be able to change at Doncaster.

I hadn't noticed that Leeds services didn't stop at Retford. I'm sure they used to until quite recently. Not ideal for connections to Gainsborough etc.

 

[asylumxl]

What about north of Bedford?

I've had a look at the timings Bedford - St Pancras and can't see much of a difference in the December timetable. Maybe it will be a good few months yet before 125mph running is actually implemented?

It's only 50 miles so you won't see a massive improvement. There will also be padding to allow for slower FCC services. To give some perspective, St Pancras to Luton is 30 miles and currently takes 22 minutes. Kings Cross to Stevenage is 27 miles and takes 23 minutes.

As I said before, the average speed on the southern MML is very respectable.

 

[Mugby]

Any 125mph running north of Bedford must surely be in short sections only. The very nature of the route with all the curves and gradients precludes any sustained high speed running. Some of the curves may be eased but they will still be much less than 125mph. On the sections where this is permitted it will no sooner be achieved than it will be necessary to slow down again. Any improvements are welcome but I wouldn't expect very much.

What the MML desperately needs is a decent Sunday service!

 

[louis97]

Derby - Sheffield?

There isn't going to be any 125mph running between Derby and Sheffield, the only increase is a Toadmore Tunnel near Ambergate Junction up from 60 to 80 mph, and the other increase is 80-95mph up to 110mph between Clay Cross Tunnel and Chesterfield South.

What about north of Bedford?

Bedford to Sharnbrook Junction is up to 125mph from 110mph,
Sharnbrook to Wellingborough is up to generally 120mph from 110mph

Wellingborough station is to 85mph from 65mph.

Wellingborough to Kettering is up to 110mph from 100mph, however they'll still be a slow down for Kettering Station.

Kettering to Market Harborough is full of many increases from 100mph to 110mph.

Market Harborough station remains at 60mph.

Market Harborough to Leicester has a 5 mile section of 110mph up from 100mph.

Leicester to Loughborough up to 120-125mph from 100-110mph.

Loughborough to Kegworth is up to 125mph from 110mph, with a short section of 100mph after then back up to 120mph to Trent.

Long Eaton to Spondon is up from 100mph to 115mph.

Not much 125mph north of Bedford at all, but all increases in line speed help.

Just to say this has all been generalised but does give a good summary of the main bulk of the increases.

 

[30907]

I hadn't noticed that Leeds services didn't stop at Retford. I'm sure they used to until quite recently. Not ideal for connections to Gainsborough etc.

I think the thread is about the Saturday service? M-F Retford is covered offpeak by the York slows (and Hull Trains)

 

[CallySleeper]

There isn't going to be any 125mph running between Derby and Sheffield, the only increase is a Toadmore Tunnel near Ambergate Junction up from 60 to 80 mph, and the other increase is 80-95mph up to 110mph between Clay Cross Tunnel and Chesterfield South.

Apologies, I think I surprisingly confused this with HST speeds?

Bedford to Sharnbrook Junction is up to 125mph from 110mph,
Sharnbrook to Wellingborough is up to generally 120mph from 110mph

Wellingborough station is to 85mph from 65mph.

Wellingborough to Kettering is up to 110mph from 100mph, however they'll still be a slow down for Kettering Station.

Kettering to Market Harborough is full of many increases from 100mph to 110mph.

Market Harborough station remains at 60mph.

Market Harborough to Leicester has a 5 mile section of 110mph up from 100mph.

Leicester to Loughborough up to 120-125mph from 100-110mph.

Loughborough to Kegworth is up to 125mph from 110mph, with a short section of 100mph after then back up to 120mph to Trent.

Long Eaton to Spondon is up from 100mph to 115mph.

Not much 125mph north of Bedford at all, but all increases in line speed help.

Just to say this has all been generalised but does give a good summary of the main bulk of the increases.

Thanks for this. Are you able to confirm a date when these will be implemented?

Also, I'm assuming there's no increase from 80 on Trent - Mansfield Jn?

 

[RichmondCommu]

Any 125mph running north of Bedford must surely be in short sections only. The very nature of the route with all the curves and gradients precludes any sustained high speed running. Some of the curves may be eased but they will still be much less than 125mph. On the sections where this is permitted it will no sooner be achieved than it will be necessary to slow down again. Any improvements are welcome but I wouldn't expect very much.

Surely tilting trains would help with all of this, in which case 125 mph running could be maintained for much longer distances.

 

[swt_passenger]

The expected line speeds are tabulated in detail on pages 156 and 157 of the latest CP4 update:

This project will improve the capability of the infrastructure to enable a minimum eight minute improvement in journey times between London and Sheffield for Class 222 operated services calling at Leicester, Derby and Chesterfield. In achieving the aforementioned capability improvement for Class 222 operated services, there will also be an incremental benefit of a minimum of around five minutes to the HST operated services between London and Nottingham calling at Market Harborough, Leicester and East Midlands Parkway. The primary outputs are to deliver the line speed increases provisionally detailed below, with actual work sites becoming fixed as programme packages emerge from GRIP 4. The project aims to increase line speeds where they are currently below the 125mph capability of the Class 222 and HST trains operating over the route. The project will be delivered in such a manner as to maximise synergy with permanent way renewals which are planned on the MML in CP4

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/WorkArea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=30064787867

 

[Cherry_Picker]

Service wise, yes Leicester doesn't do bad, however it is often forgotten about when EMT do promototions eg:free rolls this morning at Deby Nottingham and Sheffield.
Also as for the connections although not from Birmingham itself they are well used from Narborugh and Hinckley.
And to the people who say if your at leicester connections don't matter, I don't actually live in Leicester itself but in the Narborough area.
But yes the comment probably was quite harsh on EMT, probably as they(mainly 1 member of staff) have annoyed me today.

But your complaint was that Leicester is a loser in this when the reality it is Narborough and Hinckley. EMT are well aware of the number of tickets they sell to people who rely on that connection. I guess they don't think it is a significant enough of a number to stop them making changes elsewhere on their network.