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Mistakes by Touch-machines

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Maxz

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On 15th May 2017, I applied my Oyster card to touch-machines at Paddington and Buckhurst Hill stations. The touch-machines took 329% more than the correct fare for my journey. I reported the incident to TFL (transport for London.)

When I was young, there were no touch machines. I made more than a thousand train journeys, and I trusted London Underground. Now I distrust touch-machines and also TFL.
 
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MikeWh

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On 15th May 2017, I applied my Oyster card to touch-machines at Paddington and Buckhurst Hill stations. The touch-machines took 329% more than the correct fare for my journey. I reported the incident to TFL (transport for London.)

When I was young, there were no touch machines. I made more than a thousand train journeys, and I trusted London Underground. Now I distrust touch-machines and also TFL.

Welcome to the forum.

Can you give us any more details? Ideally, if you can provide a journey history statement, or what you were actually charged and rough touch times. Did TfL arrange a refund?
 

Maxz

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Hello MikeWh,
Thank you for your welcome and your reply. The Single Fare Finder reported a price of £3.10 for an off-peak journey by rail from Paddington Underground Station to Buckhurst Hill Underground Station.

7.80 + 5.40 - 3.00 + 5.40 - 2.30 = £13.30

My journey from Paddington Underground Station to Buckhurst Hill Station caused London Underground to generate five transactions that totalled £13.30.

13.30 - 3.10 = £10.20

I was overcharged by £10.20.

10.20/3.10 = 3.290322580645161

I ignored TFL's request for my bank account number, therefore I understand that there will be no refund.
 

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  • Train fare from Paddington to Buckhurst Hill, 2017-05-16 Oyster ACCOUNT.JPG
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robbeech

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This seems a little odd, i'm by no means an expert (unlike Mike) but things don't add up here.
It appears there are 3 "Journeys" here.
The latter one appears perfectly normal. You touch in at Paddington, you touch out at Buckhurst Hill, it charges you £3.10 which is correct for this journey at this time. It did seem to take you much longer than expected to travel between the 2 stations, but you were within the maximum journey time so this is not relevant here.

The middle "Journey" on this statement screenshot appears to be an in and out at the same station. If you touch in and out at the same station between 2 and 30 minutes (i think) then you are charged a single fare (minimum from that station at that time). This would be £2.40 which is correct here. If you made this move you have been charged correctly. If you didn't then something odd is going on that needs addressing.

The first entry on the statement is the most confusing one.
You can't get from Paddington to Buckhurst Hill in 1 minute.
There are no fares from Paddington National Rail to Buckhurst Hill

Things to note, £7.80 is the maximum peak fare. This is the fare you would be charged the minute you touch in during peak time. It is when you touch out that the fare is calculated and the rest of the money is returned to the card.

Unfortunately, if you haven't given them your details when asked then you will not get your refund. Your refund could have been processed to your oyster card to save giving out your details (although you would have to use the card within a time period from a chosen station which can be a faff). Whilst a number of the staff in the customer service team are not familiar with these kinds of odd journey histories they do tend to just refund things when you ask if it is clear what journey you made. To not trust a system that deals with millions upon millions of transactions per day without too much hassle is perhaps a little unjustified.
I can't help identify what has gone wrong here, the only scenario i can think of that MAY bring up this kind of journey history would be :

Touch in at Paddington National Rail at 1836.
Leave National Rail through an open barrier without touching out, maybe after a short trip on a train to somewhere and back, or touched in, realised you were in the wrong place and didn't go through the barrier?
Touch into Paddington underground at 1934, a walk around inside the station or a short trip out and back to somewhere on an underground train.
Touch out Paddington underground at 1956
Touched back in at 2002, travelled to Buckhurst Hill through whatever method you decided, it took 1hr16 whereas around 50 minutes is considered average.
Touched out at Buckhurst Hill at 2118.

You'd expect that a "no touch out" maximum fare would be displayed instead of a completed journey that takes 1 minute but perhaps the system has confused itself and put in your destination and charged a max fare (given the time it would have taken).
 
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Hadders

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I'm sure MikeWh will be along to advise shortly but it seems the OP managed to touch in 3 times at Paddington for starters:

1836 at the National Rail part of the station (no touch out so I think the system's assumed Buckhurst Hill and charged a maximum fare)
1934 at the H&C Line barriers followed by touching out at 1956
2002 at the H&C Line barriers which seems to be the start of the OP's journey to Buckhurst Hill

The OP is hardly blameless here. Touching in and out without making a journey is bound to cause anomalies. Even if paper tickets were being used the barriers wouldn't work and the OP woukd need to seek assistance.
 

bb21

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I ignored TFL's request for my bank account number, therefore I understand that there will be no refund.

Why? Did they offer you a refund and did you decline?
 

swt_passenger

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Which service did the OP think he was going to get on when the first National Rail touch in was made?

Which particular gateline in the main station was this, and did he mistakenly believe he was on his way to the H&C through a gateline that gave access to both NR and LU platforms.

This was possible until a few years ago, but disappeared with the rebuild of the H&C station...
 

35B

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Last week, I touched out at kings Cross mainline despite being on a Virgin ticket. My fault, I was dozy and my attention elsewhere.

I used the contact form on the TfL website to explain, giving details of my full journey, and had confirmation inside 72 hours that the maximum fare would be refunded to my card. No fuss, no stress.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

MikeWh

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Hi Max,

Wow, that's a mess! I concur with most of Rob's thoughts.

Looking at the whole journey history snapshot I notice that you arrived at Paddington on Saturday and left again on Monday. It's a guess, but did you either go to Heathrow and fly, or off to the West? Neither matters, but it does lead into what happened next.

Your first touch was almost certainly at a validator on Paddington National Rail station. IIRC there are some around platforms 4-5, although the layout of Paddington has changed considerably since they were first installed. This was a mistake as you were travelling on whatever paper ticket had got you into Paddington at that point, but it's a mistake that lots of people make. Do you know what you did for the next hour? Not accusing you of anything, but it would be helpful to know. Even spending time eating/drinking at The Lawn would be understandable. It looks like the system has tried to turn that touch into a meaningful journey, but it is ridiculous and is almost certainly an incomplete journey which hasn't counted towards the cap.

The next bit really does need explaining. You've been in the Underground station for 22 minutes. If this was down to confusion as to where the train you wanted to use went from, or perhaps disruption, then it's fine. If you did actually go somewhere then that is what the £2.40 charge covers. It does count towards the cap, but you didn't reach that with valid journeys.

The last bit is just a normal journey charged at the correct price. Assuming you may have had luggage, and/or needed to wait for a Buckhurst Hill train, I see no problem with the time taken.

The good news is that you are not out of time for a refund. They will have to get it to you somehow though. If you don't regularly travel then perhaps sending it to a station to pick up on a later journey may not work. The next preferred method is a bank transfer. If you have a problem giving them your bank details then they can probably send a cheque but that really is a faff all round these days. I've had plenty of refunds, some direct back to my bank, and never had anything untoward happen as a result.

Only you know exactly what happened when you complained, but you are due the extra £10.20 back. Contact them again with the full story and apologise for ignoring the request for bank details.
 
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swt_passenger

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Is there a reason why any incorrect charge can't just be credited back to the PAYG balance?
 

bb21

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It can, but will require the person to nominate a station to pick it up from.
 

robbeech

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It can, but will require the person to nominate a station to pick it up from.

And then that person to touch on that station within i think 8 days from that time. Easy enough if you are a regular down there, but not if you don't frequent London i guess.

One thing (slightly OT) to note is that despite what staff say you can touch in OR out at your chosen station for the refund to complete. This is handy if you know where you'll be getting OFF the tube but have a choice of where to get on i guess.

Mike, i think you may be onto something with the Heathrow thing.
 

Maxz

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On 16th May 2017, I used my computer to log in to my Oyster Account. After logging in, I visited the webpage:

https://oyster.tfl.gov.uk/oyster/journeyHistory.do

I obtained details of the recent transactions which occurred on my Oyster Card.


On 15th May 2017, we left the Great Western Railway (GWR) train at Paddington Station. We touched our cards on the solitary touch-machine which was on the GWR train platform. My card was my Oyster Card. My touch was recorded by London Underground as a “touch-in” at 18:36 hours, that is 6:36 pm:

18:36 Touch in, Paddington [National Rail]

At 18:37, we were ascending the stairs, which took us away from the platform with the GWR train at Paddington. At 18:37 London Underground created a serious discrepancy in its records:

18:37 Touch out, Buckhurst Hill

I did not touch-out at Buckhurst Hill at 18:37. Instead, London Underground created an imaginary touch-out. The discrepancy was associated with the creation of an impossible journey. The train allegedly left the Great Western Railway train line at Paddington at 18:36 hours, and arrived one minute later on the London Underground Central Line at Buckhurst Hill at 18:37 hours:

18:36 - 18:37 Paddington [National Rail] to Buckhurst Hill

After climbing the stairs at 18.37, we saw a stationary fire engine with a flashing red light. Paddington Underground station was closed, and a crowd of about 50 people had gathered outside the closed gate at the entrance to the station. We went to the Costa café because the tube station was closed. The café was very near the closed entrance to Paddington Underground station.


The station re-opened later, and I entered Paddington Underground station at 19:34. A touch-in was recorded by the touch-in machine:

19:34 Touch-in, Paddington (Bakerloo, Circle/District and H&C)

We waited specifically for a Hammersmith (formerly Metropolitan) Line train, because we wanted to avoid walks, tunnels, lifts, stairs, escalators, etc. We wanted to change trains easily at Mile End. Unfortunately, there were no Hammersmith Line trains. The station announcer proclaimed that a Signals Failure had interrupted the flow of trains on the Hammersmith Line. We decided that we would catch a Circle Line train, instead of the missing Hammersmith Line train.

At about 19:54, there was a blank screen on the platform at Paddington station. A blank screen meant that there were no trains approaching in the foreseeable future. I decided to go to the toilet while we were waiting, and the nearest one was at the Costa café. I left Paddington Underground Station at 19:56:

19:56 Touch out, Paddington (Bakerloo, Circle/District and H&C)


I returned to Paddington Underground Station 6 minutes later, at 20:02:

20:02 Touch in, Paddington (Bakerloo, Circle/District and H&C)

We soon entered a Circle Line train, and we changed at Liverpool Street on to a Central Line train.

I left the Central Line train at Buckhurst Hill Underground Station. I climbed the stairs to the touch-out machines. The touch-out machine’s attendant was watching the touch-out machine. At 21:18, I placed my card on the touch-out machine for several seconds, but the light stayed red. The red light made me suspect that the railway’s touch machines were malfunctioning. The red light also made me start to wonder how much London Transport had charged me for my journey on 15th May 2017. The light was still red, therefore I asked the touch-out machine’s attendant if the touch-out machine was broken. He claimed that it was not broken, and he asked me to touch the touch-out machine again. I touched the touch-out machine again, and the light finally turned green.


During my journey, from Paddington Station to Buckhurst Hill Station on 15th May 2017, I applied my Oyster Card to the touch machines a total of six times. I touched the touch-in machines 3 times, and I touched the touch-out machines 3 times. I touched-in as many times as I touched-out.

At 18:36 I touched-in once on a Paddington GWR (National Rail) platform.
At 19:34 I touched-in once at Paddington Underground Station.
At 19:56 I touched-out once at Paddington Underground Station.
At 20:02 I touched-in once at Paddington Underground Station.
At 21:18 I touched-out twice at Buckhurst Hill Underground Station.

What would have happened to me if I had less than £13.30 on my Oyster Card? Would I have been charged with an offence?
 

Hadders

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Why did you touch on the National Rail reader at Paddington? There was no need to do this and is the main cause of the problem as it creates the incomplete journey.
 

bb21

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Did you read Post 9 by MikeWh? His post explained what was most likely to have happened, and his theory would have been confirmed by the story you gave above.

If at any point your Oyster card went into negative balance, you will not be allowed to enter the system but would be allowed to exit, so that should answer your last question.

Did they offer you a refund? Have you spoken to the Oyster helpline? If they did, did you refuse the refund?
 

swt_passenger

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Why did you touch on the National Rail reader at Paddington? There was no need to do this and is the main cause of the problem as it creates the incomplete journey.

...and has their 'autocomplete' feature assumed it must have been a journey to Buckhurst Hill, because that is where records show the cardholder normally enters and leaves the system?

(Doesn't explain the time shown, but perhaps 'auto complete' doesn't attempt to work out a time, so just adds a minute? I guess MikeWh might have an idea...)
 

bb21

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...and has their 'autocomplete' feature assumed it must have been a journey to Buckhurst Hill, because that is where records show the cardholder normally enters and leaves the system?

(Doesn't explain the time shown, but perhaps 'auto complete' doesn't attempt to work out a time, so just adds a minute? I guess MikeWh might have an idea...)

Autocomplete would not be able to add a precise time, so a nominal time is used.
 

MikeWh

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Autocomplete would not be able to add a precise time, so a nominal time is used.

My understanding is that auto-complete uses the same time as the unmatched touch. That's certainly my experience with contactless which tries to guess where you're going throughout the day when you check Today's travel. My guess is that the first touch in to the Underground caused the incomplete journey to be discarded. Subsequently the back office has tried to sort it out. I've not seen this behaviour before though, so I'm not sure.

Max: You have a perfect explanation of all your troubles. There is absolutely no reason why TfL won't refund the full £10.20 overcharge. You just need to decide how to receive it. Back to the card when used for a future journey is by far the easiest as long as you can make a journey within 8 days from the call to the helpline. As has been pointed out, any touch will pick up the refund so if you know you'll go to Liverpool Street but don't know whether you'll start from Woodford or Buckhurst Hill then select Liverpool Street LU. Back to your bank or credit card is the next best. I've never had a cheque, but I'm sure that they can do that.

The Oyster system works well 99.9% of the time. When there is disruption things can go wrong and the helpdesk will always sort that out. Your first touch really screwed up the days charging, but you aren't the first to do it and certainly won't be the last.

What would have happened if you hadn't had £13.30 on your card depends on exactly how much you did have. I can confidently say that if travelling on the Underground you would have been in no danger of prosecution or a penalty fare, particularly in view of the disruption. National Rail might be a slightly different matter, but a full explanation in appeal of any penalty has been known to clear the matter in the past.
 

Maxz

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We returned from Newquay on the Great Western Railway. With hindsight, I understand that there was no need to touch the disturbed touch-machine on the GWR platform. The touch caused a surprisingly major upset in the operation of the touch-machines.

I was going to walk past the touch-machine, but my sister told me to touch it, and I unfortunately bowed to her superior knowledge. The disturbed touch-machine was on the GWR platform, at the foot of the stairs which led to the fire engine. The fire engine was near the closed entrance to Paddington Underground Station.

I hope that mistakes by touch-machines, do not lead to wrongful prosecution of unsuspecting travellers.
 

MikeWh

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I hope that mistakes by touch-machines, do not lead to wrongful prosecution of unsuspecting travellers.

Not when you have a genuine reason.

Please do revisit getting the overcharge back - it's yours. And I hate TfL's unclaimed slush fund growing.
 

MikeWh

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PS. Have you seen my reply just above yours? We posted at the same time.
 

Maxz

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Thank you Mike for your helpful information and detailed analysis.
 

6Gman

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We returned from Newquay on the Great Western Railway. With hindsight, I understand that there was no need to touch the disturbed touch-machine on the GWR platform. The touch caused a surprisingly major upset in the operation of the touch-machines.

I was going to walk past the touch-machine, but my sister told me to touch it, and I unfortunately bowed to her superior knowledge. The disturbed touch-machine was on the GWR platform, at the foot of the stairs which led to the fire engine. The fire engine was near the closed entrance to Paddington Underground Station.

I hope that mistakes by touch-machines, do not lead to wrongful prosecution of unsuspecting travellers.

But was there a mistake by the machine? Surely the "mistake" - if there was a mistake - was your tapping your Oyster card alighting from a GW train from the West Country?
 

DaveB10780

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Hello MikeWh,
Thank you for your welcome and your reply. The Single Fare Finder reported a price of £3.10 for an off-peak journey by rail from Paddington Underground Station to Buckhurst Hill Underground Station.

7.80 + 5.40 - 3.00 + 5.40 - 2.30 = £13.30

My journey from Paddington Underground Station to Buckhurst Hill Station caused London Underground to generate five transactions that totalled £13.30.

13.30 - 3.10 = £10.20

I was overcharged by £10.20.

10.20/3.10 = 3.290322580645161

I ignored TFL's request for my bank account number, therefore I understand that there will be no refund.
Oops I misread the display, my bad...
 
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AlterEgo

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But was there a mistake by the machine? Surely the "mistake" - if there was a mistake - was your tapping your Oyster card alighting from a GW train from the West Country?

Exactly. The only mistake here was the OP's, in tapping his card and thereby registering it for a journey which he didn't actually make. I have made a similar mistake before at Waterloo.
 

benk1342

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I have made a similar mistake before at Waterloo.

As have I, ages ago at Elephant and Castle. Is there a reason why the system can't treat it as a "continuation entrance" when you touch in on a standalone NR machine and then shortly after touch in again at LU barriers?
 

swt_passenger

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As have I, ages ago at Elephant and Castle. Is there a reason why the system can't treat it as a "continuation entrance" when you touch in on a standalone NR machine and then shortly after touch in again at LU barriers?

Problem was the OP here made his successive touch-ins almost an hour apart. That would probably be far too long to consider them as the same 'entrance'.

Can anyone think of a reasonable scenario for still having validators within the paid area on platforms at Paddington? (MikeWh thought they were on P4/P5 area...)
 

Kite159

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Problem was the OP here made his successive touch-ins almost an hour apart. That would probably be far too long to consider them as the same 'entrance'.

Can anyone think of a reasonable scenario for still having validators within the paid area on platforms at Paddington? (MikeWh thought they were on P4/P5 area...)

Are the validators only on those platforms which are not gated? In which case useful in the event a local stopper has to use those platforms (1, 6-9) to allow passengers travelling on Oyster/Contactless to touch in/out if travelling within the zones?
 

Mojo

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Are the validators only on those platforms which are not gated? In which case useful in the event a local stopper has to use those platforms (1, 6-9) to allow passengers travelling on Oyster/Contactless to touch in/out if travelling within the zones?
Yeah, they are for customers boarding trains from the platforms that don't have the gatelines with Oyster readers -
I've also seen local services use the longer distance platforms behind the gateline that doesn't have readers, the staff open up the wide gates usually used for vehicles and direct customers out that way.
 

swt_passenger

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Are the validators only on those platforms which are not gated? In which case useful in the event a local stopper has to use those platforms (1, 6-9) to allow passengers travelling on Oyster/Contactless to touch in/out if travelling within the zones?

Well it was just that MikeWh suggested they were there on P4/P5, (and they are gated at the buffers and onto the overbridge), so that's the situation I was asking about.

Their existence on an otherwise un-barriered platform (such as those you mention) is easily justified.
 
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