MML Electrification: progress updates

[Nicholas Lewis]

The disappointment is that the last line says it only goes out to tender September 2022. So no boots on the ground until early 2023 best I would assume.

Boots on the ground more likely 2024

ITT Sept 2022

Return Tenders Dec 2022

Evaluate til Feb 2023

Clarification til Apr 2023

Award June 2023

Mobilisation, design and materials procurement is likely to take till Dec 2023

However, this was supposed to be an oven ready scheme so work must have been in hand already South of Leicester to potentially get piling going in advance.

Answering the question of potential bidders

Also Network Rail will be canvassing for ideas on the most efficient delivery method to avoid cost overruns that dogged previous electrification projects.

You know the answer will be blockades and if acceptable how much lead time is needed from contract award to say mobilise to deliver Market Harborough to Leicester under that approach - 18 months? So could be at Leicester for Dec 2025 timetable change, 2026 Nottingham, 2027 Sheffield.

Whats happening with Kettering to Market Harborough - has it been awarded as an extension SPL?

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Unsafe assumption.

my bad

 

[59CosG95]

Whats happening with Kettering to Market Harborough - has it been awarded as an extension SPL?

Preparatory works are underway with devegging north of Kettering Nth Jn. Piling contractors Van Elle have installed all but one of the piles on the Fasts up to Kettering North Jn, and the steelwork is all but complete along that short stretch too (approx. 2 full tension lengths worth on each track, excluding crossovers). Design contracts for new sectioning cabinets have been awarded - these are at Braybrooke (the new NG feeder), East Hyde (replacing the one at Sandridgebury - also includes a Neutral Section) and Napsbury (replacing the one at Radlett). Market Harborough should, by all accounts, go electric in Winter 2023.

 

[Verulamius]

Network rail has suggested 4 tracking south of Leceister with an additional platform - see https://www.networkrail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Leicester-Area-Strategic-Advice-2021.pdf

How does this fit in with the potential electrification?

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Network rail has suggested 4 tracking south of Leceister with an additional platform - see https://www.networkrail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Leicester-Area-Strategic-Advice-2021.pdf

How does this fit in with the potential electrification?

Passive provision will be made one assumes?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Network rail has suggested 4 tracking south of Leceister with an additional platform - see https://www.networkrail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Leicester-Area-Strategic-Advice-2021.pdf

How does this fit in with the potential electrification?

Surely the MML electrification programme was addressing capacity needs before coming up with a wiring scheme. All this sounds as though they are starting from scratch again.

 

[zwk500]

Surely the MML electrification programme was addressing capacity needs before coming up with a wiring scheme. All this sounds as though they are starting from scratch again.

It'll be a two-pronged scheme. The fact they are electrifying the line will have prompted them to look at anywhere that might be rebuilt in the life of the electrification, and to see if it can be remodelled beforehand so it only needs to be electrified once. I doubt any design has got as far as gantry placement and signal sighting yet, so I doubt there's any work lost/held up by this.

 

[59CosG95]

It'll be a two-pronged scheme. The fact they are electrifying the line will have prompted them to look at anywhere that might be rebuilt in the life of the electrification, and to see if it can be remodelled beforehand so it only needs to be electrified once. I doubt any design has got as far as gantry placement and signal sighting yet, so I doubt there's any work lost/held up by this.

And who knows? Perhaps some sections might get finished, wired and energised discontinually - e.g. Wigston to Syston is left until later, with wires up north of Syston earlier. Derby could be done early doors as the layout's only recently been done.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

And who knows? Perhaps some sections might get finished, wired and energised discontinually - e.g. Wigston to Syston is left until later, with wires up north of Syston earlier. Derby could be done early doors as the layout's only recently been done.

With BiModes it certainly does allow the option to not doing the electrification in incremental sections abutting previously energised sections so plenty of options to be explored with potential bidders.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

And who knows? Perhaps some sections might get finished, wired and energised discontinually - e.g. Wigston to Syston is left until later, with wires up north of Syston earlier. Derby could be done early doors as the layout's only recently been done.

Fed from a grid feeder at Kegworth I assume?

 

[59CosG95]

Fed from a grid feeder at Kegworth I assume?

Yep - I'd put money on the Kegworth horse if this were a horse race and I were a betting man. Whether it'll be a 132kV or a 400kV remains to be seen.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

And also, when will electrification be completed by?

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Yep - I'd put money on the Kegworth horse if this were a horse race and I were a betting man. Whether it'll be a 132kV or a 400kV remains to be seen.

I know we are getting into speculative territory but it is a main strategic artery, with freight use and surely cross-country infill Birmingham-Derby at some stage so planning for the future 400kV has to be the best option by far?

 

[YorksLad12]

Changing the Northern Notts-Leeds service to pure EMU operation would unfortunately require the route via Barnsley, Wakey Kirkgate and Woodlesford wired as well. They would at least be able to use bi-modes/BEMUs (if the CAF units can be upgraded without further cracks!) on the MML 'core' and around Notts.

Ah - but that was supposed to be being speeded up via Westgate, so you'd need to wire up Sheffield to link with Moorthorpe, then hitch a ride on the ECML.

 

[quantinghome]

I assume since there were coalfields in the general area that ground surveys will be very thorough to avoid a Manchester to Preston type scenario of horrendous costs per mile incurred due to attempting multiple piling before resorting to gravity pads etc. ?

One would hope. As ever, the old adage "you pay for a site investigation whether you have one or not" applies.

 

[Killingworth]

Having watched a fairly small Network Rail scheme that has evolved over 20 years here in South West Sheffield I've seen and heard many little pieces of information that must be much better known to those working within the industry.

It was possibly in 2013 that I saw a plan of the Dore West junction area showing the outlined situation for a MML feeder station for the then forthcoming MML electrification! When the HS2 team came to town with their maps and plans they were seemingly unaware of that. I'm sure there's a lot more outlined, if not detailed, design work already in the NR files awaiting updating. Hopefully it's still available and relevant to help early completion of this long awaited scheme.

As an aside, and all I tell say it must have been my imagination, but about 3 years ago an unidentified young man told me he'd wasted a year of his professional life examining electrification proposals for the Hope Valley line. Having seen a number of feasibility studies for various projects in this area I'm very aware that such studies are far removed from final delivery. We spend an immense amount of effort on schemes we know we need, but can't get round to implementing!

 

[ABB125]

Whether it'll be a 132kV or a 400kV remains to be seen.

Apart from (obviously!) the difference in voltage, what (if any) are the differences in feeder stations fed by each voltage? Is one preferred over the other?

 

[hwl]

Apart from (obviously!) the difference in voltage, what (if any) are the differences in feeder stations fed by each voltage? Is one preferred over the other?

Traditionally 400kV for lots of reasons but paricularlty as the rail usage impacts the other wider electricity users less.

 

[grumpyoldman01]

I assume since there were coalfields in the general area that ground surveys will be very thorough to avoid a Manchester to Preston type scenario of horrendous costs per mile incurred due to attempting multiple piling before resorting to gravity pads etc. ?

The coal industry was very visible around Hasland until quite recently, so I hope ground surveys for that sort of mining will be considered "automatically"; however, it is probably forgotten that there were collieries close to the old North Midland Railway around Wingfield, and I've no idea where the seams mined at places like Denby lay

There were lots of sand/gravel pits close to the route around Attenborough and Draycott - those at Attenborough are now flooded and form a nature reserve; will special mast foundations be required to take those workings into account?

 

[ohgoditsjames]

I’ll be interested to see how they plan on tackling Bradway tunnel.

 

[quantinghome]

The coal industry was very visible around Hasland until quite recently, so I hope ground surveys for that sort of mining will be considered "automatically"; however, it is probably forgotten that there were collieries close to the old North Midland Railway around Wingfield, and I've no idea where the seams mined at places like Denby lay

There were lots of sand/gravel pits close to the route around Attenborough and Draycott - those at Attenborough are now flooded and form a nature reserve; will special mast foundations be required to take those workings into account?

The first thing the designers will do, even before doing ground investigation, is a desk study on available mine working records - held by the Coal Authority, supplemented by historical maps, aerial photographs and anything else they can access. The most common problem is very old workings which were never recorded. Again, evidence is looked for, walkover surveys conducted and then intrusive ground investigation.

OLE foundations are up to 5-6m deep, so unless the pits are literally right next to the track they won't affect the design, other than demonstrating the groundwater level is high.

 

[ABB125]

Traditionally 400kV for lots of reasons but paricularlty as the rail usage impacts the other wider electricity users less.

Thanks, I though that might be the case!

 

[59CosG95]

The first thing the designers will do, even before doing ground investigation, is a desk study on available mine working records - held by the Coal Authority, supplemented by historical maps, aerial photographs and anything else they can access. The most common problem is very old workings which were never recorded. Again, evidence is looked for, walkover surveys conducted and then intrusive ground investigation.

OLE foundations are up to 5-6m deep, so unless the pits are literally right next to the track they won't affect the design, other than demonstrating the groundwater level is high.

They can, if required, be up to 16.5m deep (3 5.5m piles spliced together).

 

[Killingworth]

I’ll be interested to see how they plan on tackling Bradway tunnel.

Locally we were given the impression that work on the tunnel lining and track done in 2008 would make it electrification ready. When we spoke to the HS2 team they didn't know anything about that and suggested they were some way from getting down to that sort of detail. 13 years ago we were expecting electrification soon!

 

[ABB125]

They can, if required, be up to 16.5m deep (3 5.5m piles spliced together).

And how often is that required? Bearing in mind that's about twice the height of a "normal house" (whatever one of those is!).

 

[Bald Rick]

ITT Sept 2022

Return Tenders Dec 2022

Evaluate til Feb 2023

Clarification til Apr 2023

Award June 2023

Mobilisation, design and materials procurement is likely to take till Dec 2023

That’s all pretty optimistic. There needs to be a funding decision in there somewhere, and that can take (insert number) months.

However, this was supposed to be an oven ready scheme so work must have been in hand already South of Leicester to potentially get piling going in advance.

I’ve never seen anything suggesting it was an ‘oven ready’ scheme. Development on it stopped well over 6 years ago, and it hadn’t got that far along (north of Leicester, at least).

 

[GRALISTAIR]

They can, if required, be up to 16.5m deep (3 5.5m piles spliced together).

Wow did not know that. I have a photo somewhere when everything failed in 1 location on the Preston to Manchester scheme they put the mother of all gravity pads in. I think Joseph Locke who posts on this thread from time to time called it the base of the century.

 

[InOban]

That’s all pretty optimistic. There needs to be a funding decision in there somewhere, and that can take (insert number) months.



I’ve never seen anything suggesting it was an ‘oven ready’ scheme. Development on it stopped well over 6 years ago, and it hadn’t got that far along (north of Leicester, at least).

I quite agree. I think posters are far too optimistic. I think that NR is trying to get suppliers to put together a price which can be taken to the Treasury.
Did anyone hear the boss of the Office of Budget Responsibility this morning on Today? The country's debts are astronomical, and much of it is either short-term or index-linked, so won't be reduced by inflation.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I quite agree. I think posters are far too optimistic. I think that NR is trying to get suppliers to put together a price which can be taken to the Treasury.
Did anyone hear the boss of the Office of Budget Responsibility this morning on Today? The country's debts are astronomical, and much of it is either short-term or index-linked, so won't be reduced by inflation.

Govt have issued 2 Trillion pounds worth of gilts to date but the Bank of England have bought up c£600B of these iou's so effectively they are written off. Insurance companies ie pension funds and overseas institutions are prepared to hold the remaining gilts and Debt Management Office continues to be able to raise cash on an almost weekly basis without issue from the market so our credit is good.

In reality the govt can fund almost what it wants currently with little risk in inflation taking hold but it needs to be careful not overcook certain sectors especially construction as demand is already running ahead of supply. You want a little bit of overheating as that encourages business to come into the sector with new capacity which helps to keep a lid on price inflation.

So its perfectly feasible to fund MML if they want to its purely political whether they decide to do so.

 

[Mikey C]

Govt have issued 2 Trillion pounds worth of gilts to date but the Bank of England have bought up c£600B of these iou's so effectively they are written off. Insurance companies ie pension funds and overseas institutions are prepared to hold the remaining gilts and Debt Management Office continues to be able to raise cash on an almost weekly basis without issue from the market so our credit is good.

In reality the govt can fund almost what it wants currently with little risk in inflation taking hold but it needs to be careful not overcook certain sectors especially construction as demand is already running ahead of supply. You want a little bit of overheating as that encourages business to come into the sector with new capacity which helps to keep a lid on price inflation.

So its perfectly feasible to fund MML if they want to its purely political whether they decide to do so.

The actual "shovels on the ground" won't be for at least 2 years anyway, by which time the economy might need a shove

Besides the next election will be in 2023/24...