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Most popular TOC/Depots for driving trains ?
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insane_lewis
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im Selhurst, it seems to be just a case of going through the roster, finding who is on the same pattern but opposite times and just asking. It also seems that this cannot be changed at a management level and a change of shift request form has to be completed for every week.
saying that due to ill health I have been off for 6 months and even though I am back but off track, due to the distancing I cannot get back on track as 2 aren't allowed in a cab. so its been awhile since I have been at the depot. it may have all changed
Thanks, hope you are ok & manage to get back driving soon..
Would you say Selhurst, Norwood and Vic are roughly the same in terms of job content? Is one more desirable then another in general?
Here at padd we mostly do faster work now with the 800's and doing the metro work at another TOC doesn't bother me too much but just want to get as much info as possible before I think of jumping ship!
insane_lewis
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no there are differences,
vic and Selhurst top links the work seems similar, London to brighton mainline, Horsham etc.
in the lower links like myself at Selhurst its all metro, I cover
bridge, vic to
Epsom/sidings
Epsom downs
sutton
tattenham corner
Caterham
selhurt depot
Streatham hill depot.
and all the different ways to these places in between.
I never seem to be in the cab for more than about an hour and 15 each way. But of course could do several there and backs in-between breaks. Sundays they like us to do things like double vic to Epsom downs and back all stops before a break. We can top 100 stations stops on a long day.
Norwood has different routes like
east Grinstead, then routes up to Milton Keynes via Watford, and down to Uckfield on the diesels, these are much longer routes.
I was meant to be and still want to be at Caterham, where the routes i sign will be the same, but without the 330am starts and the 3am finishes.
or depending on start and finish times and how I would get there I wouldn't mind Gat ex.
Personally my favourtie run at the moment is London Bridge to Caterham semi fast, its fast to east Croydon then all stops to Cat, it gives a nice bit of fast and stopping.
I should be back driving when the social distancing thing ends. 2 in a cab and all that, but im working at home refreshing all my routes with video, route packs and the wonderful RED vids
hope I could help
vic and Selhurst top links the work seems similar, London to brighton mainline, Horsham etc.
in the lower links like myself at Selhurst its all metro, I cover
bridge, vic to
Epsom/sidings
Epsom downs
sutton
tattenham corner
Caterham
selhurt depot
Streatham hill depot.
and all the different ways to these places in between.
I never seem to be in the cab for more than about an hour and 15 each way. But of course could do several there and backs in-between breaks. Sundays they like us to do things like double vic to Epsom downs and back all stops before a break. We can top 100 stations stops on a long day.
Norwood has different routes like
east Grinstead, then routes up to Milton Keynes via Watford, and down to Uckfield on the diesels, these are much longer routes.
I was meant to be and still want to be at Caterham, where the routes i sign will be the same, but without the 330am starts and the 3am finishes.
or depending on start and finish times and how I would get there I wouldn't mind Gat ex.
Personally my favourtie run at the moment is London Bridge to Caterham semi fast, its fast to east Croydon then all stops to Cat, it gives a nice bit of fast and stopping.
I should be back driving when the social distancing thing ends. 2 in a cab and all that, but im working at home refreshing all my routes with video, route packs and the wonderful RED vids
hope I could help
20atthemagnet
Member
Blimey. For the purpose of the discussion you raise another great point about making moves to somewhere. If you doing a particular shift is desirable. You have certain depots in the country that the majority of people just follow the roster. Others like my own have a fairly even distribution of people who want to do a particular shift which means that in my time, I’ve never seen anybody do a shift they didn’t want.. The guys and girls who do earlies stick to earlies...lates to lates and nights to nights, Ive been on the same shift with the same people for 20 years. The roster gets posted Mid april for say may - dec and theres nothing left to swap for anyone by the end of april....
Im not sure if all roster pattern are diff but I simply swap with the person behind me as our lines alternate lates to earlies. Downside is if you have a not so great week you get it twice...drivers who like nights just take everyones nights and then distribute amongst themselves.
Its actually quite impressive...as none of it is officially arranged, requires alot of to and froing between drivers for a solid week.
Does your roster not allow for such an arrangement?
insane_lewis
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it can do, my understanding its just arranging it with the relevant parties and getting the correct paper work filled out. I never got passed the trying to find someone to agree the swap with in the first place lol im pretty sure the paper needs to be done weekly at ours though.
Yep that’s always been my experience of this kind of thing. It’s reliant on finding a swap partner and can then work very well. The problem comes if the swap partner leaves/goes of on long term sick etc.
This kind of thing could never be sanctioned at a management level without causing massive resentment, allegations of favouritism etc. The only fair way to approach train crew rostering is for everyone to follow the base roster, subject to individuals making their own arrangements with others, if they are willing and able to do so.
I could attempt a move to avanti, and that’s pretty much the only one I’d think of going to. But I’m very happy with my job, even if I am on £15k a year less than avanti. It’s 10 minutes from home, I have varied routes and the mess room is a right laugh for the most part. I also like my bosses too, and I’m not just saying that in case they read this!! Haha. So I don’t think I’d move to be fair.
Evolution
Member
I think when looking at the so-called best TOC you need to factor in where you are based in the country. London based commuter and Metro type work cannot be compared to a commuter TOC outside of London.
Take Northern, for instance, they are considered a commuter TOC but have a mixture of work from stoppers to express services, you would stop far less at a commuter TOC outside of London than say Thameslink or Southeastern. In the North, all work is guarded and the T&C's of these TOC's tends to very good, so good that most people at Northern or TPE wouldn't consider a move to somewhere like Avanti or LNER, as the intercity work just isn't favourable for the slight increase in pay but poorer T&C's and more boring work.
The best TOC around the Manchester area would be Northern or TPE. I'd probably edge towards TPE.
Take Northern, for instance, they are considered a commuter TOC but have a mixture of work from stoppers to express services, you would stop far less at a commuter TOC outside of London than say Thameslink or Southeastern. In the North, all work is guarded and the T&C's of these TOC's tends to very good, so good that most people at Northern or TPE wouldn't consider a move to somewhere like Avanti or LNER, as the intercity work just isn't favourable for the slight increase in pay but poorer T&C's and more boring work.
The best TOC around the Manchester area would be Northern or TPE. I'd probably edge towards TPE.
GWR and TPE certainly seen popular with Qualifieds and with their pay deal perhaps SWR will become more popular.
Salisbury and Yeovil must be amongst SWR'S best depots with West of England line work very desirable.
Southern still has a tarnished reputation and the problem with moving to Barnham for instance is that you would be placed in the bottom links working a lot of stoppers and not driving to Southampton for years. Arun Valley looks like good wirk but agsin it is likely to be link dependant. Yet go to GWR Fratton with one link and you immediately work limited stop express work to Brighton as well as working one of the most scenic lines in the country to Bristol.
Salisbury and Yeovil must be amongst SWR'S best depots with West of England line work very desirable.
Southern still has a tarnished reputation and the problem with moving to Barnham for instance is that you would be placed in the bottom links working a lot of stoppers and not driving to Southampton for years. Arun Valley looks like good wirk but agsin it is likely to be link dependant. Yet go to GWR Fratton with one link and you immediately work limited stop express work to Brighton as well as working one of the most scenic lines in the country to Bristol.
I work for a commuter TOC outside of the London bubble as you describe. There is a stampede of drivers applying any time Avanti, XC, LNER have vacancies. So much so there was almost a mass fight in the car park after LNERs stupid group tasks. There is never any XC,LNER or Avanti drivers moving the other way. I know of many TPE drivers going for interviews with these 3 companies as well. 67.5K V 51K at Northern is life changing money not just a slight increase very hard for People to turn that down.
Evolution
Member
That isn't what I hear from drivers I speak to in Manchester, most wouldn't want to move to those TOC's as they prefer the variety of work and different traction types they get to drive not to mention better T&C's.
Sounds like some drivers get lured in by the headline salary but when you break it down and look at the take home pay after tax, you aren't actually making much more. Northern is £54.5k now and TPE is £60k so at TPE you would be about £300 worse off than Avanti after tax and N.I, however, if you worked just one rest day per month you would actually be on about the same. These TOC's pay very good overtime rates (often more than Avanti etc).
And £600 extra per month (after tax) isn't "life changing money", it's a nice extra amount to have but certainly not life changing for most drivers as you say.
TPE is Sunday part of the Working week Avanti isn't so Avanti would be circa 72k a year about 12K diff including Sundays. Even that is a very nice chunk off your mortgage after tax or the higher salary allows you to borrow a good whack more on your mortgage.
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What are the better T&Cs you mention please? I currently have ongoing applications with both Northern and LNER, and had viewed LNER as the superior option (although would be delighted to get any trainee position to be clear!)
Do avanti have a 4 day week with long weekend every 3 weeks?
My toc does.
That is one perk I wouldn't want to give up.
Set rest days every 3 weeks so you can plan years ahead for what days you are working, doesn't matter what happens to the new timetables the days off always stay the same.
My toc does.
That is one perk I wouldn't want to give up.
Set rest days every 3 weeks so you can plan years ahead for what days you are working, doesn't matter what happens to the new timetables the days off always stay the same.
Don't know all their depots but they tend to have one link like that and another 5 days on then every 5th week off.
Is there anything you like at your current TOC over Avanti?
No same goes for XC and LNER.
lammergeier
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We do at XC. In most depots you can actually have a choice of rest day patterns, with the 4 day you describe as the most popular. The post earlier in the thread highlighting how there's a steady stream of drivers in and very few drivers out was accurate.
I guess it's horses for courses, some like one type of company, others another.
Northern isn’t really comparable to any of the ex southern region commuter TOCs.
But, by all accounts, the Ts and Cs and pay aren’t great, and neither is the work. That’s based on what I’ve been told by several people who used to drive for them (appreciate the work will vary by depot, though - and they have some cracking routes).
It’s a myth that T’s and C’s are worse at intercity TOCs than commuter TOCs and Northern.
Having moved from a commuter TOC to an “intercity” TOC. The senior drivers at my commuter depot were quite bitter. They used to moan constantly about the awful work, the awful pay, the awful Ts and Cs (cry me a river, why have you put up with it for twenty years!?).
No qualified drivers ever joined, it was a revolving door of trainees who got a key and left as soon as they could, or had too many incidents to leave and became trapped (or were sacked).
(There were some great people there too, I collected a few good friends I’m still in touch with, but plenty enough bad apples to spoil the barrel.)
At the “intercity” depot, on the other hand, the guys all seem pretty happy with their lot and it’s rare for people to leave. Most of of us worked for commuter TOCs previously. We can appreciate what “good” work is, because we’ve all done work where you stop every two minutes.
I had had to stop 18 times the other day (stoppers) and I felt hard done by. But, it was only two trips, there’s someone else to do the doors, I had an airsprung seat, I overtook a dogbox on the slows, while I was doing 120mph, which is always strangely satisfying...
It sure beats working for a living
.Yes the people at the intercity TOCs seem a lot more chilled and happy. It's definitely seen as a 5 star holiday camp compared to our depot. And yes the T&C's are mainly old wives tales. The movement on the spare might be a bit worse but the 15k+ as well as 100 odd less stops a day and a far happier working environment and management more than makes up for it. I mean you never know you might be unlucky and have the cold the week you get shafted on the spare anyway.Northern isn’t really comparable to any of the ex southern region commuter TOCs.
But, by all accounts, the Ts and Cs and pay aren’t great, and neither is the work. That’s based on what I’ve been told by several people who used to drive for them (appreciate the work will vary by depot, though - and they have some cracking routes).
It’s a myth that T’s and C’s are worse at intercity TOCs than commuter TOCs and Northern.
Having moved from a commuter TOC to an “intercity” TOC. The senior drivers at my commuter depot were quite bitter. They used to moan constantly about the awful work, the awful pay, the awful Ts and Cs (cry me a river, why have you put up with it for twenty years!?).
No qualified drivers ever joined, it was a revolving door of trainees who got a key and left as soon as they could, or had too many incidents to leave and became trapped (or were sacked).
(There were some great people there too, I collected a few good friends I’m still in touch with, but plenty enough bad apples to spoil the barrel.)
At the “intercity” depot, on the other hand, the guys all seem pretty happy with their lot and it’s rare for people to leave. Most of of us worked for commuter TOCs previously. We can appreciate what “good” work is, because we’ve all done work where you stop every two minutes.
I had had to stop 18 times the other day (stoppers) and I felt hard done by. But, it was only two trips, there’s someone else to do the doors, I had an airsprung seat, I overtook a dogbox on the slows, while I was doing 120mph, which is always strangely satisfying...
It sure beats working for a living
How easy is it to move from a commuter TOC to an intercity? For example, if you got a trainee position with Northern, what are your prospects of being able to move to LNER/XC/Avanti and when would you expect to make the move?
Understand there are many variables involved and it’s not a simple answer, but interested to know from all your experiences how often and easily this kind of thing happens.
Understand there are many variables involved and it’s not a simple answer, but interested to know from all your experiences how often and easily this kind of thing happens.
I work for a commuter doo toc. Several of ours left for intercity if you like. At least four recently to emr , one to cross-country , one to Eurostar and one to virgin in 18 months. Usually need around two years qualified. Although emr used to state one year on the application.
Very hard purely on a numbers game as intercity vacancies are very rare to start with. On top of that you will be competing with lots of people for such vacancies so your chances are low. Plus intercity depots are pretty small maybe 40 odd drivers compared to 120+ at quite a lot of other TOCs so you are aiming for a pretty small % of the industry.
Then of course if you've had an incident your ruled out straight away
jettofab
Member
Would someone joining XC generally have the choice or would it tend to be going into the 5 day link and waiting for a vacancy in the 4 day link (and hoping you have seniority to get it)?
lammergeier
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It depends on the depot. I understand that at New St you'd have a choice as there are vacancies in both links, at other depots if there's only one vacancy you'd go there with the opportunity to transfer later. There's so much traction and route training (generally mon-fri) however that there may be a vacancy in your desired link by the time you are ready to go into the links.
Seniority doesn't really come into it - if you put a letter in saying you want to move links (say 5 to 4 day) today, then the most senior bod at the whole depot put a letter in tomorrow wanting the sane swap, you would get preference as you asked first.
irish_rail
Established Member
Or try for GWR where you will be driving intercity express trains on long distance routes , probably have more route knowledge than any of the other TOCS you mention and GWr seem to recruit a little more often than the others.
train_lover
Member
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What I'm surprised hasn't been mentioned are FOCs. In terms of route and traction knowledge I don't think any TOC can beat a FOC. When I made the move from London Midland to a FOC I was blown away by the vast amount of routes I got to sign.
My terms and conditions aren't bad either. Although it's not secret that TOCs get a better deal. All depends on what you want..
My terms and conditions aren't bad either. Although it's not secret that TOCs get a better deal. All depends on what you want..
Eccles1983
On Moderation
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- 841
I've worked for two TOC's.
One had far better t&C's than they other - money isn't everything despite it being hailed as the defining factor.
Northern had very good terms and conditions on the fnw side, with everything set in stone with no room for the company to change it. From driving hours, breaks, rostering to STP policies. It was low paid in comparison but you could easily and simply plan your life for 10 years if you were bored enough to do so.
Route knowledge - I sign a lot of routes, and did at my other toc. Now everyone likes to to think Avanti and XC have great route cards - depot specific. Preston is the place for wcml route cards, the rest are so so. I would get bored very quickly bouncing up and down the wcml but not signing the entire route. I have seen a few decrying the amount of stops - you are meant to be train drivers, stopping multiple times shouldn't be an issue to any competent driver.
Freight men have the best route cards of all, but deficating in bushes is beyond me now.
I sign routes into cities, as well as branch lines. It's a nice variety of work, some low speed some high (100mph) and very rarely will you get the same job twice in a week.
I've signed the worst units on the network - but it's really not a deal breaker unless you're into trains and even then the novelty will wear off.
Would I consider "intercity" operators? Not at this stage, I'm more interested in my commute to work, my work/life balance and the variation of daily work.
So horses for courses.
One had far better t&C's than they other - money isn't everything despite it being hailed as the defining factor.
Northern had very good terms and conditions on the fnw side, with everything set in stone with no room for the company to change it. From driving hours, breaks, rostering to STP policies. It was low paid in comparison but you could easily and simply plan your life for 10 years if you were bored enough to do so.
Route knowledge - I sign a lot of routes, and did at my other toc. Now everyone likes to to think Avanti and XC have great route cards - depot specific. Preston is the place for wcml route cards, the rest are so so. I would get bored very quickly bouncing up and down the wcml but not signing the entire route. I have seen a few decrying the amount of stops - you are meant to be train drivers, stopping multiple times shouldn't be an issue to any competent driver.
Freight men have the best route cards of all, but deficating in bushes is beyond me now.
I sign routes into cities, as well as branch lines. It's a nice variety of work, some low speed some high (100mph) and very rarely will you get the same job twice in a week.
I've signed the worst units on the network - but it's really not a deal breaker unless you're into trains and even then the novelty will wear off.
Would I consider "intercity" operators? Not at this stage, I'm more interested in my commute to work, my work/life balance and the variation of daily work.
So horses for courses.
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