Most popular TOC/Depots for driving trains ?

[387star]

“Cambridge cruisers” must be nice to drive.

yeah looks very good work...45 mins with no stops. There's a small dead mans depot at Kings Lynn too

 

[ESONEULB]

Anyone know much about Hornsey Depot and Great Northern?

What would you like to know ?

2 Links:
Outer: 700/387/365 - Kings Cross - Cambridge inc. Cambridge sidings (With Hertford Diversionary)
Inner: 717 - Moorgate/Kings Cross - Baldock (via Main line or Hertford)

And for the purpose of this thread, the inner link is definitely not a popular one.

Basically, what it's like to work from.. I have been told that the inner route is less popular than the outer and all drivers want the outer route I guess because it's more interesting.

The drivers that are there that I spoke to all liked the depot alot and thought they were all treated very well.

Personally I'm not going to take much notice until I get my key.. I'm more interested as it's were I'm going to be.

 

[choochoochoo]

Basically, what it's like to work from.. I have been told that the inner route is less popular than the outer and all drivers want the outer route I guess because it's more interesting.

The drivers that are there that I spoke to all liked the depot alot and thought they were all treated very well.

Personally I'm not going to take much notice until I get my key.. I'm more interested as it's were I'm going to be.

Inner work is pretty boring and intense (reckon you could do 100 stops in a shift). As someone said earlier it might be considered less risk as less route/traction knowledge needed and only one length train (apart from a 2x717 into kings cross).
Outers is more interesting, but even then it's only one route. Outers will be going through the core at some stage in the future
Depot itself is ok, wouldn't say they get any better treatment then any other GN driver from another depot.
As a trainee on inners expect a long wait to pass out - There are no inner instructors at Hornsey. You'll probably build your hours and pass out on a route/traction you won't ever sign. Then go learn the route/traction after passing out.

 

[43066]

Personally I'm not going to take much notice until I get my key.. I'm more interested as it's were I'm going to be.

That’s exactly the right approach. Concentrate on getting your key, keep your nose clean, and then consider whether you want to move depots/TOCs.

 

[ESONEULB]

Inner work is pretty boring and intense (reckon you could do 100 stops in a shift). As someone said earlier it might be considered less risk as less route/traction knowledge needed and only one length train (apart from a 2x717 into kings cross).
Outers is more interesting, but even then it's only one route. Outers will be going through the core at some stage in the future
Depot itself is ok, wouldn't say they get any better treatment then any other GN driver from another depot.
As a trainee on inners expect a long wait to pass out - There are no inner instructors at Hornsey. You'll probably build your hours and pass out on a route/traction you won't ever sign. Then go learn the route/traction after passing out.

Thank you for that

 

[Need2]

“Cambridge cruisers” must be nice to drive. I’d love to experience driving a Networker at 100mph. They’re shaky enough at 75mph .

I thought networkers (465,466) were limited to 75 anyway?

 

[ESONEULB]

That’s exactly the right approach. Concentrate on getting your key, keep your nose clean, and then consider whether you want to move depots/TOCs.

I'm a very loyal guy and understand that the grass isn't always greener..

Thanks for letting me know I'm thinking clearly.

My nose clean will be a massive priority

 

[43066]

I thought networkers (465,466) were limited to 75 anyway?

365s can do the full ton.

 

[43066]

I'm a very loyal guy and understand that the grass isn't always greener..

Thanks for letting me know I'm thinking clearly.

My nose clean will be a massive priority

The grass might very well be greener. Two things you need to do in this industry:

1. keep a clean record (it follows you).

2. It’s a (very) small world. don’t be a bell end in the messroom, don’t p*ss people off, generally. Calls will go in. My current manager called two people at my last depot two ask what I was like (luckily two people I got on with - and I’m a fairly marmite character!).

I’ve been asked about two potential new joiners, where I am now, from my last depot. One of whom I gave the nod to, because he’s a decent lad, one of whom I didn’t. He was a knob when I worked with him before - no doubt he’d be the same if I worked with him again - so I’ll ensure I never have to.

His CV went straight into the bin.

 

[Class2ldn]

I think at Thameslink Horsham is probably dead mans shoes now as it is one of the few Thameslink depots that is not truly 24 hour as well as having a decent route to Peterborough and is relatively small at around 40 drivers. I preferred the Peterborough run to Bedford as you tend to get more greens and you have some really nice runs like 100 from Finsbury to Stevenage and 100 from Huntingdon to Peterborough. Peterborough is another dead mans depot although apparently far bigger than it used to be. The flip side is all the Peterborough trains run via Redhill so unless you part cover Cambridge work or are skip stopping you miss out the fun of the express run from Gatwick to Croydon. Horsham has a very nice depot building and the people there are really good as is the management. The depot was mostly filled with ex Southern along with a few from Thameslink depots.

Three Bridges have some very early starts and late finishes although thankfully they have depot drivers to shunt the trains around and they often prep them too. Both depots are better for work, I imagine, than the inner depots at Southern unless you are in the top links. Thameslink does not have links.

They do have a night turn only 1, pass to Peterborough and bring one back

 

[Class2ldn]

Thanks a lot for the info really useful, does anyone know the earliest book on time at Bridges. Thanks

From next week its 330am

 

[irish_rail]

The grass might very well be greener. Two things you need to do in this industry:

1. keep a clean record (it follows you).

2. It’s a (very) small world. don’t be a bell end in the messroom, don’t p*ss people off, generally. Calls will go in. My current manager called two people at my last depot two ask what I was like (luckily two people I got on with - and I’m a fairly marmite character!).

I’ve been asked about two potential new joiners, where I am now, from my last depot. One of whom I gave the nod to, because he’s a decent lad, one of whom I didn’t. He was a knob when I worked with him before - no doubt he’d be the same if I worked with him again - so I’ll ensure I never have to.

His CV went straight into the bin.

Wow I do hope that you costing some poor driver a job hasn't had too bigger impact on his life. Just because you thought he was a kn*b he may well have thought the same about you. Frankly the idea that he didn't get the job on your say so absolutely stinks to me.
Personally i would always support a colleague on their chosen career path. We are all train drivers and no doubt all in the union, so quite why you felt the need to roll up the drawbridge is a little baffling if you don't mind me saying so.

 

[vikingdriver]

Wow I do hope that you costing some poor driver a job hasn't had too bigger impact on his life. Just because you thought he was a kn*b he may well have thought the same about you. Frankly the idea that he didn't get the job on your say so absolutely stinks to me.
Personally i would always support a colleague on their chosen career path. We are all train drivers and no doubt all in the union, so quite why you felt the need to roll up the drawbridge is a little baffling if you don't mind me saying so.

Totally agree. Says far more about the character of this driver than the one who didn't get the job.

 

[43066]

Wow I do hope that you costing some poor driver a job hasn't had too bigger impact on his life. Just because you thought he was a kn*b he may well have thought the same about you. Frankly the idea that he didn't get the job on your say so absolutely stinks to me.
Personally i would always support a colleague on their chosen career path. We are all train drivers and no doubt all in the union, so quite why you felt the need to roll up the drawbridge is a little baffling if you don't mind me saying so.

Totally agree. Says far more about the character of this driver than the one who didn't get the job.

If my manager phones me up and asks me what I think about someone, and whether I think they’d be a good fit for the depot, I’ll answer him honestly. I make no apology for that.

Exactly the same question was asked about me. That’s just the way it works.

 

[craigybagel]

Getting back on topic, I notice some depots only sign a few routes, or even only one in some cases, as well as only one type of traction. For drivers is a wide range of routes and traction better, or does it pose challenges in route knowledge and maintaining competence? My question's more aimed at qualified drivers as I would imagine trainees are happy with anything they can get!

There's a depot at my TOC that has two links. The only difference between the two links is that the "senior" of the two signs one extra traction and one extra depot - otherwise all the routes and other traction are the same, and most jobs are split evenly between the links.

Lately, it's becoming very hard to get people to volunteer to move up into what should be the more senior link. Partly because the jobs that are specific to that link (IE the ones that involve the extra traction at some point) are also the longest jobs at the depot, partly because by signing that traction you're more likely to pick up work from spare, and partly because the traction itself is not especially nice to drive. There are more vacancies coming up soon and it may well be that trainees go straight into the senior link because none of the drivers in the junior link want to move up!

Personally I'd prefer as much variety as possible and I hate sitting spare, but I'm only a new driver so that might change with experience. At present I only sign one route (all further route learning being suspended due to coronavirus) but it's a very long one with a lot of variety so I'm happy enough - albeit looking forward to expanding my route card as soon as possible. I also sign 4 tractions so that helps keep things varied too. Some of the GTR/Thameslink depots mentioned on this thread with one traction and one relatively short route and little chance of improvement without moving sound awful to me!

 

[43066]

There's a depot at my TOC that has two links. The only difference between the two links is that the "senior" of the two signs one extra traction and one extra depot - otherwise all the routes and other traction are the same, and most jobs are split evenly between the links.

Lately, it's becoming very hard to get people to volunteer to move up into what should be the more senior link. Partly because the jobs that are specific to that link (IE the ones that involve the extra traction at some point) are also the longest jobs at the depot, partly because by signing that traction you're more likely to pick up work from spare, and partly because the traction itself is not especially nice to drive. There are more vacancies coming up soon and it may well be that trainees go straight into the senior link because none of the drivers in the junior link want to move up!

Personally I'd prefer as much variety as possible and I hate sitting spare, but I'm only a new driver so that might change with experience. At present I only sign one route (all further route learning being suspended due to coronavirus) but it's a very long one with a lot of variety so I'm happy enough - albeit looking forward to expanding my route card as soon as possible. I also sign 4 tractions so that helps keep things varied too. Some of the GTR/Thameslink depots mentioned on this thread with one traction and one relatively short route and little chance of improvement without moving sound awful to me!

Totally agree with you about sitting spare. It drags. I’d much rather be driving. Some drivers seem to love it! Also agreed re. traction/routes - generally the more the better. Variety is the spice of life.

The only proviso to that is that, if I’m expected to sign a route, I’d like to drive over it regularly. We have a diversionary route which we have no rostered work over. There is a route learning train which we are rostered onto every couple of months, but it isn’t really enough.

 

[Stigy]

If my manager phones me up and asks me what I think about someone, and whether I think they’d be a good fit for the depot, I’ll answer him honestly. I make no apology for that.

Exactly the same question was asked about me. That’s just the way it works.

That’s the problem with the railway to an extent. It’s not what you know, it’s who you know. Although you were honest with your manager, which let’s face it, in the circumstances anyone would be I’d imagine, it says a lot about your manager’s technique in recruiting someone. Are you a leading driver or a senior driver etc? In which case it’s wholly acceptable that management would ask your views, but if you’re the same “ranking” as everyone else at the depot, what has it got to do with you?

Some people just don’t get on with one or two people, it’s just human nature. Some people are naturally quieter and keep themselves to themselves, does that also mean they wouldn’t fit in? If someone is a knob, they’re generally a knob usually. Unless someone goes out of their way to stir things up in a depot though, surely someone’s CV shouldn’t just be chucked in the bin on the advice of another driver?

 

[ComUtoR]

it says a lot about your manager’s technique in recruiting someone.

In what way ? It is the Manager who ultimately has to make the decision and needs as much information as possible to recruit someone. That information is good or bad.

Are you a leading driver or a senior driver etc? In which case it’s wholly acceptable that management would ask your views, but if you’re the same “ranking” as everyone else at the depot, what has it got to do with you?

Following from above. Part of recruitment is to see is a person is a good fit for their location. Managing a good work atmosphere and ensuring your workforce get along with each other is essential. Sometimes a single person can be so disruptive that it becomes hugely detrimental to the entire depot.

surely someone’s CV shouldn’t just be chucked in the bin on the advice of another driver?

CVs are binned on the 'advice' of various people. Effectively this is little more than what a reference does. Granted a lot of employers cop out when it comes to a reference because they can get litigious but they are still personal recommendations.

Not forgetting that this goes both ways. I think some people overlooked that someone was also 'given the nod' Personal recommendations go a long way, especially where you take advice from someone that is trusted or respected. Plenty or people in ALL employment have got their job on the back of a personal recommendation. Although it can be unfair or generate nepotism you can get good employees that way. Sadly you can't really have one without the other. Recommendation go both ways.

The 'who you know' thing has been happening for hundreds of years and is never going away. Personally I think that rail recruitment is overall one of the fairest processes out there but that fairness has come at a cost. Just because someone passes, doesn't make them a good or even competent employee.

 

[jettofab]

Totally agree with you about sitting spare. It drags. I’d much rather be driving. Some drivers seem to love it! Also agreed re. traction/routes - generally the more the better. Variety is the spice of life.

There are people at my depot who profess to hating being spare but they get incredibly salty if they end up having to do something when they are spare! You also get the headworkers who figure out what they're likely to get off spare and do a pre-emptive swap then commiserate with the person who took their job off them and got marked to something evil. Then there are the others, like you, who genuinely dislike it and swap off them even after the mark up is done.

Personally I'm happy with the occasional spare turn. Can often sort it so someone else gets an early finish and if not it's not the worst thing in the world to sit around putting the world to rights for a while, as long as it doesn't happen to often and the messroom idiots aren't around.

 

[43066]

That’s the problem with the railway to an extent. It’s not what you know, it’s who you know. Although you were honest with your manager, which let’s face it, in the circumstances anyone would be I’d imagine, it says a lot about your manager’s technique in recruiting someone. Are you a leading driver or a senior driver etc? In which case it’s wholly acceptable that management would ask your views, but if you’re the same “ranking” as everyone else at the depot, what has it got to do with you?

Some people just don’t get on with one or two people, it’s just human nature. Some people are naturally quieter and keep themselves to themselves, does that also mean they wouldn’t fit in? If someone is a knob, they’re generally a knob usually. Unless someone goes out of their way to stir things up in a depot though, surely someone’s CV shouldn’t just be chucked in the bin on the advice of another driver?

I see where you’re coming from, but I look at it in a more positive way: management care about the people they recruit. They aren’t just looking for bums on seats, they’re trying to ensure they recruit people who fit in and will be a positive addition to the depot. I reckon that’s a good thing.

I like to think I’m objective - it’s not about personal vendettas etc. I’d certainly never badmouth someone for being a bit quiet. But, if I’m asked my opinion about someone I’ve worked with, I will answer honestly. It’s the same in any industry.

I stand by the advice in my previous post. The railway is a very, very small world, and people have long memories.

 

[43066]

Following from above. Part of recruitment is to see is a person is a good fit for their location. Managing a good work atmosphere and ensuring your workforce get along with each other is essential. Sometimes a single person can be so disruptive that it becomes hugely detrimental to the entire depot.

Precisely. You and I have both worked with a few of those .

 

[Tojo The Dwarf]

New to this forum but have been reading with interest.

The whole thing about asking around about people works both ways and depends a lot on who you ask. I can think of one particularly disruptive and unreliable person given glowing reports by managers when asked, purely so they could get rid of him. If the managers had told the other TOC what they really thought of this guy they would have been stuck with him. Now he is the other TOCs problem.

I can think of another guy who got a job because the local manager asked an existing employee who used to work with him for his opinion. The guy was his mate so of course he said the manager should take him on. The manager did take him on and now he's stuck with a person that causes quite a few issues and sows disharmony in the workplace.

Good luck to anyone who thinks its a good idea to approach recruitment in this way.

 

[ComUtoR]

Good luck to anyone who thinks its a good idea to approach recruitment in this way.

Nobody has said its a good thing. Just that it happens. Its naive to think otherwise. You might as well get rid of the entire reference system too as its effectively the same thing.

I started life on the railway based on a recommendation from a friend. He thought I would like it and grabbed me an application form. I didn't get the job because of him (I went to a different company) but I'm certainly here because he put me on the path. There was no job advert or recruitment campaign, just a friend doing me a favour and getting me an application form.

I was recommended for my current role by both other members of staff and indeed other Managers. From the Manager side it is part of their role to recognise and recommend people for other roles. It is part and parcel of the process. I still have to earn the role based on interviews, and assessments etc but I was still put on the path from a recommendation.

 

[whoosh]

It's the same in other industries - teaching for example. Teacher goes for a job at another school, Headteacher phones up other Headteacher and asks them what they're like - they can say what they want in a private conversation, but a reference can't have anything negative in it.

Imagine my surprise when I went to change TOCs and of the two people interviewing me one turned out to be my ex-Head of Drivers! That took me by surprise! The last I'd seen of him he was still on 'gardening leave' (that's another story) at my then current TOC. A good job I'm an "off the radar" type of person, and had been quietly reliable.
The other interviewer was friends with a driver I worked with (they'd both started on the railway at the same time and lived near each other), and I'm pretty sure there wouldve been a, "What's he like?" conversation.

Everyone is assuming that 43066's conversation mentioned above, was the only one, or the only factor, in the decision for that person to not be shortlisted.

 

[ComUtoR]

but a reference can't have anything negative in it.

This really isn't true. References must be true and accurate.

References: your rights

Getting a work reference from an employer either while in work or when applying for a new job – and what you can do if you think it's unfair.

www.gov.uk

An employer doesn’t usually have to give a work reference - but if they do, it must be fair and accurate. Workers may be able to challenge a reference they think is unfair or misleading.

Employers must give a reference if:

• there was a written agreement to do so
• they’re in a regulated industry, like financial services

If they give a reference it:

• must be fair and accurate - and can include details about workers’ performance and if they were sacked
• can be brief - such as job title, salary and when the worker was employed

 

[Ell887]

The difference is, when you nominate references during any application process in any industry, you’re very likely to name people who are going to be positive about you. Even to the extent of asking them to say certain things.

I’m not in the railway industry, but I’m currently looking to move to something from where I am to do that has a much lower notice period. I’ve spoken to some ex-colleagues and they’ve given me a reference before any openings have been advertised. I then received 2 interview offers (unfortunately not at a position to move yet).

Even then, there’s people in my current role, peers and subordinates who probably don’t like me because I insist everything’s done by the book (as it always should be). If they were asked behind closed doors if they liked me, they’d probably say no. Not for any other reason that I make sure the jobs done correctly and to industry standards/company policy.

 

[whoosh]

Fair and accurate, yes. You can't say, "He's a knob," in a reference though, lol!

 

[rail-god]

1. keep a clean record (it follows you).

2. It’s a (very) small world. don’t be a bell end in the messroom, don’t p*ss people off, generally. Calls will go in. My current manager called two people at my last depot two ask what I was like (luckily two people I got on with - and I’m a fairly marmite character!).

I’ve been asked about two potential new joiners, where I am now, from my last depot. One of whom I gave the nod to, because he’s a decent lad, one of whom I didn’t. He was a knob when I worked with him before - no doubt he’d be the same if I worked with him again - so I’ll ensure I never have to.

His CV went straight into the bin.

Thats how the railways works.

 

[Stigy]

In what way ? It is the Manager who ultimately has to make the decision and needs as much information as possible to recruit someone. That information is good or bad.

What I was getting at was that I know how easy a personal recommendation can be to get blinkered by, be it by one person’s views, or misinterpreting the facts sometimes. The whole idea of the interview process is to form your own opinion as a hiring manager, and by taking advice from another person you’re not forging your own views on a candidate “initially”, hence the interview process. I’ve recruited people for jobs in this industry before, although admittedly not on a scale of driver recruitment so I guess if nothing else, whittling down applications often takes place post-sift and this is one way of doing so (in terms of sheers numbers).

I’ve seen good and bad recruitment, and applicants which look superb on paper but aren’t great in practice. I guess it also depends on the area of the industry you’re involved with.

 

[43066]

Thats how the railways works.

Yes. It really, really is.

What I was getting at was that I know how easy a personal recommendation can be to get blinkered by, be it by one person’s views, or misinterpreting the facts sometimes. The whole idea of the interview process is to form your own opinion as a hiring manager, and by taking advice from another person you’re not forging your own views on a candidate “initially”, hence the interview process. I’ve recruited people for jobs in this industry before, although admittedly not on a scale of driver recruitment so I guess if nothing else, whittling down applications often takes place post-sift and this is one way of doing so (in terms of sheers numbers).

I’ve seen good and bad recruitment, and applicants which look superb on paper but aren’t great in practice. I guess it also depends on the area of the industry you’re involved with.

I was perhaps a little too flippant in my earlier post. I would never take any pleasure in someone losing out on a job. But, if I’m asked for my opinion on someone, it would be wrong of me not to be honest. My point was just that it’s a very, very small world. As I was recently told by an old hand, “everyone else in the industry either knows you, or knows someone who knows you.”

The thing that decides whether you get the job isn’t the HR/interview fluff. It’s the call the manager makes to his mate, who works with you, to ask “what’s this guy really like?”. If that goes against you, you wont even get to the interview stage.

It’s actually quite scary when you see it in action. I found out I’d got my current role, before I received the official offer, when a colleague walked into the messroom at my last place and told me. After my interview I realised the manager had already known the answer to every question he’d asked me. He was asking to see if I’d BS him. Honesty also goes a very long way.

To put it another way, I know who two of the other contributors to this thread are. One knows I know him, the other doesn’t, but I know exactly who he is based on his posting history re. where he now works, and where he used to work.