• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

My idea for Grand Central HST's for CrossCountry

Status
Not open for further replies.

DarloRich

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
29,448
Location
Fenny Stratford
They'll be gone in '22 with the introduction of the proposed new new bi-mode trains for the MML. As the last significant EMT refurb was a some time ago with no PRM-mods, and their power cars in a minority of having VP185 engines (rather than the more common MTU), I'd assume these would all be scrapped.

But what do I know?! :lol:

despite being "non standard" they might last longer than some of thier MTU powered relations due to recent announcements!
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

DenmarkRail

Member
Joined
13 Jun 2016
Messages
665
Argh, I'll tell you what Britain need... The DSB IR4s.

-Electric
-Improved door situation from the IC3
-Intercity and commuter version
-Wide gangway, for single crew, and easy access for all sets
-Can run in max of 12 cars.
-Still made in the IR3 form, by Bombardier.


<<I HATE ENGLISH DESIGNED TRAINS!!>>
 

43096

On Moderation
Joined
23 Nov 2015
Messages
15,441
Argh, I'll tell you what Britain need... The DSB IR4s.



-Electric

-Improved door situation from the IC3

-Intercity and commuter version

-Wide gangway, for single crew, and easy access for all sets

-Can run in max of 12 cars.

-Still made in the IR3 form, by Bombardier.





<<I HATE ENGLISH DESIGNED TRAINS!!>>

But they are completely out of gauge.
 

xotGD

Established Member
Joined
4 Feb 2017
Messages
6,129
Yes. With the exception of the few XC ones, it looks like the only HST's left will be at the extremities of the country, which is annoying for those of us in Yorkshire. If only one of our London TOC's could find a reason to keep some <(

We'll have 68s thrashing across the Pennines every half hour* instead. Sounds like a fair swap to me.


*This is an approximation to the actual service pattern, before someone provides unnecessary detail not relevant to the point I'm making.
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
39,330
Location
Yorks
We'll have 68s thrashing across the Pennines every half hour* instead. Sounds like a fair swap to me.


*This is an approximation to the actual service pattern, before someone provides unnecessary detail not relevant to the point I'm making.

Only if they're with the Pretendolino !
 

DenmarkRail

Member
Joined
13 Jun 2016
Messages
665
UK RAILWAYS RANT ALERT!!!!

To be complete honest, I don't understand why the DfT and the TOC's have a massive obsession for Multiple Unit trains in the UK. I understand that the High Speed services, should be in DMU form (e.g, pendos, 800s etc...) but I think the more inter region services should become loco hauled, with new MK5 coaches. Routes like the Cross Country routes, instead of a 4 car DMU, a 6 car loco hauled service, could be used, and depending on events, and bookings, extra coaches can be added easily, and a single crew can be used.

I think, when we went from Praha to Berlin HBF, we were in a 6 or 7 coached loco hauled train, which had no overcrowding, simply because planning was ahead, and everyone was either in their booked seat, or in one of the unreserved seating carriages. When you look at the Voyagers, they cram people in, in a tiny space, and offer no amenities, no buffet car, no FREE Wifi, and little for free in first class. I seriously feel that there is a lack of planning and customer care for British railways in general. Trains which are in a set, set, are overcrowded, because another coach can't just be added, half way down the line, or even before the train starts, but if we had loco hauled coaches, and an intense planning, of events etc, we would be able to pop another spare coach on, before the train leaves.

Now, for commuter trains, I see the need for gangwayed sets, for the simple ease, of having lots of doors, for quick alighting etc, but for Inter region trains, it'll be easier to have 1 68, and 11 MK5s, for the Fort William to Penzance, or the Edinburgh to Birmingham.

I have spent my holidays every year, traveling by train in Europe, and you see that the way train travel is conducted is so much different... When was the last time the guard had an iPad Mini, as a ticket scanner in the UK? (DB Berlin - Hamburg) When was the last time, your train had a buffet car, serving cooked food, cooked onboard?

Why do we still run 4 car trains on some of the most highly congested routes? Why can't we build the infrastructure, so we can order trains, the same gauge as Europe? BECAUSE BRITAIN HAS FALLEN BEHIND!

Never, in England, would you be able, to board a train onto a boat, and get it off again, without a delay.

I'll tell you what we need... We need a real conversation, about our railways... Away from the government, we need a consumer inquiry, into what we want from our railways, because I'll tell you something... As much as we love the idea of a 4 coach cramped train in paper, I'd much rather see a bulk order, for 300 MK5s, for across the network!

Want to talk more about this, and share your opinions with me? Email me at [email protected]
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
68,492
Location
Yorkshire
1 68, and 11 MK5s, for the Fort William to Penzance
You make some interesting points but it is impossible to take the post seriously; there is no prospect of an 11-car direct service from Fort William to Penzance.
.. When was the last time the guard had an iPad Mini, as a ticket scanner in the UK?
I would hope TOCs do not purchase iPad Minis for this purpose. On VTEC they have some sort of scanner that reads the Aztec codes. I don't know what the staff can see with the reader (perhaps it just says if the ticket is deemed valid or not).
(DB Berlin - Hamburg) When was the last time, your train had a buffet car, serving cooked food, cooked onboard?
Let's be realistic; it's more viable to get food at stations these days. Times have changed. Some UK trains do cook food onboard though.
Why do we still run 4 car trains on some of the most highly congested routes?
For money saving reasons and because they can get away with it.
 

DenmarkRail

Member
Joined
13 Jun 2016
Messages
665
For the record, I was generalising the fort William to Penzance -> meaning just the semi fast inter region trains
 
Last edited by a moderator:

BR60062

Member
Joined
2 Aug 2016
Messages
154
Location
Oakham
or someone buys the power cars and pulls out the engines to go into a spares/refurb pool. Always useful having a spare engine or two on the shelf for service exchange.

BTW I am fairly sure that the MTU engines in all HST will have been overhauled several times since installation so the initial install date is of little use when it comes to looking at current condition.
I got it and there is a nifty way to "belt" two birds with one stone metaphorically speaking when the GC HST's are retired from service. As the MTU power units could be removed as a source of spares for other HST's as you mentioned and the HST carcass could be sold onwards to the 125 group which would give them a great chance to shove one of their Valenta's into it as then they would have another Valenta power car unit active in their arsenal (I included the "rented" HST-P as didn't they repower it with a Valenta?). There is no guarantee that it will be like that, but its not something to rule out either :).

Yes. With the exception of the few XC ones, it looks like the only HST's left will be at the extremities of the country, which is annoying for those of us in Yorkshire. If only one of our London TOC's could find a reason to keep some <(
Please correct my ignorance if I have it wrong. But I thought EMT ran HST's between London and Sheffield? Especially in the mornings and evenings :).

Argh, I'll tell you what Britain need... The DSB IR4s.

-Electric
-Improved door situation from the IC3
-Intercity and commuter version
-Wide gangway, for single crew, and easy access for all sets
-Can run in max of 12 cars.
-Still made in the IR3 form, by Bombardier.


<<I HATE ENGLISH DESIGNED TRAINS!!>>
No no no. To be honest Britain needs new trains that are modern and are 2020 compliant which is what is happening right now with the new Hitachi IEP train programme and CAF are also building new trains/rolling stock at the time of writing as well :).

Why do you hate English designed trains mate? Okay I will admit that some of them are not perfect but they do the job :roll:.
 
Joined
10 Mar 2013
Messages
1,010
TBH I would've though NR would prefer the buffered sets as rescue is quicker and easier should they fail. No faffing about with heavy drawbars

indeed , and IIRC the purpose of the original modification on the 'surrgoate DVT' powercars to allow the class 91 to be coupled easily to either end of the rake as they can ( or atthe time would i nthe future) be able to do with the Mk4 +DVT rakes ...
 

Billy Hunt

Member
Joined
14 Apr 2016
Messages
15
Interesting reading peoples views on the GC HSTs,especially being a GC Driver ! All we have been told is that they are deffo going in December but where we dont know ! We've heard the tales of their departure to XC,one rumour being on the Stansteds but that would require POD etc ! The remaining GWR 180's will be arriving over the coming months as the refurbs take place on our 180's.

All i will say is that im gonna miss driving these wonderful Power Cars very very much !!
 

jopsuk

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2008
Messages
12,773
We've heard the tales of their departure to XC,one rumour being on the Stansteds but that would require POD etc !

The only platform at Stansted that Diesel trains are allowed in can only just take a pair of two car 170s. I'd be pretty confident in saying that HSTs will not be going on to that route.
 

Domh245

Established Member
Joined
6 Apr 2013
Messages
8,425
Location
nowhere
Please correct my ignorance if I have it wrong. But I thought EMT ran HST's between London and Sheffield? Especially in the mornings and evenings :)

They won't once they've been replaced by bi-modes in the near future
 

DarloRich

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
29,448
Location
Fenny Stratford
Argh, I'll tell you what Britain need... The DSB IR4s.

-Electric
-Improved door situation from the IC3
-Intercity and commuter version
-Wide gangway, for single crew, and easy access for all sets
-Can run in max of 12 cars.
-Still made in the IR3 form, by Bombardier.


<<I HATE ENGLISH DESIGNED TRAINS!!>>

slight issue with point 1.....................................................

( before we think about the differences between UK & Continental loading gauge)

Interesting reading peoples views on the GC HSTs,especially being a GC Driver ! All we have been told is that they are deffo going in December but where we dont know ! We've heard the tales of their departure to XC,one rumour being on the Stansteds but that would require POD etc ! The remaining GWR 180's will be arriving over the coming months as the refurbs take place on our 180's.

All i will say is that im gonna miss driving these wonderful Power Cars very very much !!


Try it down the back end ;) I am going to miss riding on them.
 

Rich McLean

Established Member
Joined
6 Feb 2012
Messages
1,688
Interesting reading peoples views on the GC HSTs,especially being a GC Driver ! All we have been told is that they are deffo going in December but where we dont know ! We've heard the tales of their departure to XC,one rumour being on the Stansteds but that would require POD etc ! The remaining GWR 180's will be arriving over the coming months as the refurbs take place on our 180's.

All i will say is that im gonna miss driving these wonderful Power Cars very very much !!


If the GC sets end up on XC on temporary cover it will be cover for sets out for mods as this has been delayed and currently the plan to have 4 sets out Mon to Fri doesn't look like it will happen if things stay as they are. It's up to the Dft as XC won't be able to provide the right number of seats to cover the direct award agreement if only 3 sets can be allowed out for daily use (one maintaince set, one mod set)

If the above does happen, they will only end up on the existing route covering for sets out for maintaince until all mods are done.
 
Last edited:

D365

Veteran Member
Joined
29 Jun 2012
Messages
11,506
Yes, everything's "bi-mode this" and "bi-mode that". As if there won't be enough of the b****y things around anyway.

Surely that's a good thing as it will reduce diesel running in any case?
 

DenmarkRail

Member
Joined
13 Jun 2016
Messages
665
I got it and there is a nifty way to "belt" two birds with one stone metaphorically speaking when the GC HST's are retired from service. As the MTU power units could be removed as a source of spares for other HST's as you mentioned and the HST carcass could be sold onwards to the 125 group which would give them a great chance to shove one of their Valenta's into it as then they would have another Valenta power car unit active in their arsenal (I included the "rented" HST-P as didn't they repower it with a Valenta?). There is no guarantee that it will be like that, but its not something to rule out either :).

Please correct my ignorance if I have it wrong. But I thought EMT ran HST's between London and Sheffield? Especially in the mornings and evenings :).

No no no. To be honest Britain needs new trains that are modern and are 2020 compliant which is what is happening right now with the new Hitachi IEP train programme and CAF are also building new trains/rolling stock at the time of writing as well :).

Why do you hate English designed trains mate? Okay I will admit that some of them are not perfect but they do the job :roll:.


The NEW Bombardier Class ET in Denmark, are 2020 compatible, as they are new trains based on the designs of the IC3. The IR4 / IC3 , is compatible, however only when the elevator for disabled passengers is used.
 

CosherB

Established Member
Joined
23 Feb 2007
Messages
3,041
Location
Northwich
The NEW Bombardier Class ET in Denmark, are 2020 compatible, as they are new trains based on the designs of the IC3. The IR4 / IC3 , is compatible, however only when the elevator for disabled passengers is used.

As has been pointed out, it's still not compatible with the UK loading gauge.
 
Last edited:

Darandio

Established Member
Joined
24 Feb 2007
Messages
10,704
Location
Redcar
As has been pointed out, it's still not compatible with the UK loading gauge.

That doesn't seem to be the limiting factor though, from what I can read of the posts by George, he wants to upgrade all infrastructure to a bigger loading gauge.
 

43096

On Moderation
Joined
23 Nov 2015
Messages
15,441
That doesn't seem to be the limiting factor though, from what I can read of the posts by George, he wants to upgrade all infrastructure to a bigger loading gauge.

We can't afford to string wires up for electric trains. What makes him think major gauge enhancement is even remotely affordable?

School holiday season, innit?
 
Joined
10 Mar 2013
Messages
1,010
It takes a very special type of discussion to get members frothing about whether or not buffered 43s can be mixed.

:lol:

hence the justification for the creation of a crayonista playpen forum where such threads can be sent
 

DenmarkRail

Member
Joined
13 Jun 2016
Messages
665
Those who are going on about how my plan does not take into account the loading gauge... I did not say I wanted to rebuild the system, but I think we should re evaluate the type of trains we use.

I was meaning, we should take more from design, from the IR3 / ET train, and take more of the way we run trains, from Germany, and most of Europe, who have much smaller problems with overcrowding.

but an FYI, the IC3 family (IR4, IR3, IC2, IC3) are certified for HS1, and will probably be for HS2
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top