National Routeing Guide update

[kieron]

There has been a new version of the routeing guide today, which changes the easement list a bit:

New Dataset RJRG0357 published 07/05/2015

Easements added


700575: Journeys between Huddersfield; Deighton and Mirfield to Leeds and beyond may not travel via Sowerby Bridge. Journeys may however travel via Halifax. This negative easement applies in both directions​

This is probably the most positive negative easement I've seen for a while, given all the journeys which weren't previously valid via Halifax. It doesn't appear to have been incorporated fully into NRE yet, though.

700576: Journeys between Liverpool Lime Street or Liverpool South Parkway and Urmston and Liverpool Lime Street or Liverpool South Parkway and Trafford Park are not valid via Deansgate; Manchester Oxford Road or Manchester Piccadilly. This negative easement operates in both directions​

For anyone who is interested, the Liverpool-Manchester flow runs as far as Flixton.
I've no idea why they would forbid this, though.

700577: During engineering work between 23 and 25 May 2015, journeys from Cheltenham and Gloucester to London using tickets routed 00000 Any permitted, or via Stroud 00827, 00808, 00807, 00803 may use Cross Country services to Birmingham New Street and then onward by Virgin Trains only to London Euston. This positive map easement applies in both directions​

So that's "ANY PERMITTED", "LONDN STRD/EVSHM", "RDG STRD INC LDN", "VIA STROUD" and "EVESHAM/STROUD" as it appears on tickets.

As this is a very tightly focussed easement, I can see that only "ANY PERMITTED" and "VIA STROUD" are actually used on the route in question.

700578: Journeys from Bromley North, Sundridge Park, Grove Park, Elmstead Woods may not travel to London Terminals via Bromley South (which is in a higher priced Travelcard zone). This negative circuitous easement applies in both directions.​

Unless there's a stray easement around, this is forbidding something which wasn't allowed before.

Easements removed


700559: This positive Map easement will operate on Sunday 03 May 2015. Due to engineering works between Crewe and Shrewsbury, services not normally are routed this way will be able to travel via Chester. This easement will apply in both directions


700567: During engineering works over the May Bank holiday weekend 02 - 04 May 2015, an hourly Manchester to London Euston service will start from Liverpool Lime Street. Normally tickets between Liverpool and London are not valid via Manchester. This map easement allows that routeing for the duration of the engineering works. This easement applies in both directions.​

Both defunct.

 

[RJ]

700578: Journeys from Bromley North, Sundridge Park, Grove Park, Elmstead Woods may not travel to London Terminals via Bromley South (which is in a higher priced Travelcard zone). This negative circuitous easement applies in both directions.​

Unless there's a stray easement around, this is forbidding something which wasn't allowed before.

Bromley North to Bromley South is an official transfer. Sundridge Park to London Victoria via Bromley South is a valid route as it's shorter than the shortest route and actually 20%+ quicker than the shortest route.

Given there is less mileage than the shortest route involved, I question if the inclusion of Sundridge Park in this easement is legitimate. I don't think so somehow.

There are plenty of instances where routes permitted by the NRG might use more zones than the shortest route. I wonder if ATOC intends to remove all of them, or if this is just a case of Southeastern being special.

 

[bb21]

Some of these easements may not be enforceable (such as the aforementioned Sundridge Park example), however I feel that what they were trying to achieve is hacking the booking engines so that anyone not familiar with the Routeing Guide (the exceptions being a very small minority of the population, many concentrated on these forums) would not be able to use such tickets on the routes they do not like, as the validity would not be shown to them.

Whether they would be able to stop the specialists from doing so is a different question. They may or may not feel the effort required to achieve that would be worth it, given the minute revenue implications.

 

[RJ]

I think an objection should be raised, as anything to do with the shortest route shouldn't be fiddled. A Sundridge Park to London ticket won't necessarily have the same range of route options into London available as a Bromley South to London season. This is why I'm opposed to routing permissions being based on some random higher fare between intermediate stations on a permitted route.

 

[kieron]

Bromley North to Bromley South is an official transfer. Sundridge Park to London Victoria via Bromley South is a valid route as it's shorter than the shortest route and actually 20%+ quicker than the shortest route.

Sorry, I should have thought of that. I think I'd filed shortest routes to various London terminals under things which are too hard to work out.

Given there is less mileage than the shortest route involved, I question if the inclusion of Sundridge Park in this easement is legitimate. I don't think so somehow.

Is this an argument that the changes ATOC made to the guide last October were unlawful?

As it is now, the only places where a route no more than 3 miles longer than the shortest route is mentioned is on F1 and F7 in The National Routeing Guide in Detail. These apply it:

1. If a journey does not have an origin routeing point and a destination routeing point; and
2. If there is a common routeing point.

I suppose the first one is where all of a station's routeing points are invalid for the journey for one reason or another.
Neither situation is relevant here, and neither suggests that it overrides any other instruction in the guide anyway.

There are plenty of instances where routes permitted by the NRG might use more zones than the shortest route. I wonder if ATOC intends to remove all of them, or if this is just a case of Southeastern being special.

I think they've just come across something they don't like, and have used this method to change it. Other TOCs have done the same thing when they found people using cheap tickets into London.

Describing why they wanted an easement in the text of the easement itself may not be such a good idea, though.

 

[RJ]

Is this an argument that the changes ATOC made to the guide last October were unlawful?

As it is now, the only places where a route no more than 3 miles longer than the shortest route is mentioned is on F1 and F7 in The National Routeing Guide in Detail. These apply it:

1. If a journey does not have an origin routeing point and a destination routeing point; and
2. If there is a common routeing point.

I suppose the first one is where all of a station's routeing points are invalid for the journey for one reason or another.
Neither situation is relevant here, and neither suggests that it overrides any other instruction in the guide anyway.

This isn't about the 3 mile rule. It's about a route which is shorter than the shortest route.

What are you referring to with regards to October 2013? If it it's St Albansgate, I don't know to be honest. It's mandated that the shortest route is always valid - so how can legitimate (i.e using a recognised transfer) routes which are shorter than that be forbidden?

Speaking of which, was St Albans to St Albans Abbey ever shown a transfer in the National Rail Timetable? If so, it isn't now, but the connection still exists in the journey planners.

 

[kieron]

This isn't about the 3 mile rule. It's about a route which is shorter than the shortest route.

Has there ever been any special rules for those? I know there's a rule in the NRCOC allowing travel on "trains which take the shortest route which can be used by scheduled passenger services", and one in the routeing guide allowing travel on the shortest route (or routes) as determined by the timetable distance tables. That's about it, though.

What are you referring to with regards to October 2013? If it it's St Albansgate, I don't know to be honest.

I don't remember what else was happening at the time, but this was when the statement that "Journeys on direct trains or taking the route of shortest distance or a distance longer
by no more than 3 miles are always following a permitted route" was removed. This left a large group of tickets which are only valid on a route because NRE says they are.

It's mandated that the shortest route is always valid - so how can legitimate (i.e using a recognised transfer) routes which are shorter than that be forbidden?

As far as I know, they can be forbidden for exactly the same reasons routes longer than the shortest route can be forbidden.

Speaking of which, was St Albans to St Albans Abbey ever shown a transfer in the National Rail Timetable? If so, it isn't now, but the connection still exists in the journey planners.

I don't know. The timetable doesn't list Warrington or Wigan, either, so I don't think it's meant to be comprehensive. It is shown in the NRE list of Station Interchange Maps, but this doesn't give transfer times.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
There were a few more changes yesterday, some of which relate to discussions on this forum.

New Dataset RJRG0358 published 12/05/2015

Changes implemented following review of the mapped permissions from Hellifield to Preston.

Map sequence added

HELLIFIELD GROUP (G53) and Kirkham And Wesham (KKM) - added sequence 'EH+DH'
HELLIFIELD GROUP (G53) and Kirkham And Wesham (KKM) - added sequence 'LX+NP'
HELLIFIELD GROUP (G53) and Kirkham And Wesham (KKM) - added sequence 'LX+XP'
HELLIFIELD GROUP (G53) and Preston (Lancs) (PRE) - added sequence 'EH+DH'
HELLIFIELD GROUP (G53) and Preston (Lancs) (PRE) - added sequence 'LX+NP'
HELLIFIELD GROUP (G53) and Preston (Lancs) (PRE) - added sequence 'LX+XP'


Map sequences removed


HELLIFIELD GROUP (G53) and Kirkham And Wesham (KKM) - removed sequence 'NP'
HELLIFIELD GROUP (G53) and Preston (Lancs) (PRE) - removed sequence 'NP'​

These previously only had mapped routes via Halifax. They are now also mapped via Clitheroe, Lancaster and Leeds.

For engineering work in the Swindon area 23 -25 May 2015, map and fare route easements added/amended to ensure Journey Planners offered the desired journey options.

Easements added

700579: During engineering works 23-25 May 2015 tickets on routes 00808 Reading/Stroud & 00807 Via Stroud from Cheltenham Spa and Gloucester to London will be valid via Bristol Parkway and Newbury. This Fare Route easement will operate in both directions.

700580: During engineering works 23 - 25 May 2015, tickets on routes 0000 Any Permitted and 00803 Evesham/Stroud; 00827 London Stroud/Evesham; 00807 Via Stroud; 00808 Reading & Stroud, from Gloucester and Cheltenham to or via London Paddington will be valid via Birmingham New Street, using Cross Country services to Birmingham. And onward by Virgin Train services from Birmingham New Street to London Euston. This fare route easement applies in both directions

Easements changed


700574: During engineering works 23 to 25 May 2015 passengers travelling from Gloucester and Cheltenham to London can travel via Bristol Temple Meads and Newbury. When using tickets on routes 00807 Via Stroud and 00808 Reading & Stroud. This positive map easement applies in both directions
700577: During engineering work between 23 and 25 May 2015, journeys from Cheltenham and Gloucester to London using tickets routed 00000 Any permitted, or via Stroud 00827, 00808, 00807, 00803 may use Cross Country services to Birmingham New Street and then onward by Virgin Trains only to London Euston. This positive map easement applies in both directions​

I must assume that booking engines benefit from having all of these overlapping temporary easements.

The text of 700574 has had the names added to the route codes. 700577 hasn't changed at all.

Easements removed as out of date


700573: During engineering work on 10 May 2015 tickets on Fare Routes 00951 and 00953 RailAir Reading will be valid on bus replacement services that do not call at Reading Station, when services travel via Reading bus as a location in Journey Planners.​

Out of date, as stated.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Has there ever been any special rules for those? I know there's a rule in the NRCOC allowing travel on "trains which take the shortest route which can be used by scheduled passenger services", and one in the routeing guide allowing travel on the shortest route (or routes) as determined by the timetable distance tables. That's about it, though....

Everytime I have heard the argument for 'shorter than the shortest route' routes, it seems to have stemmed from the three mile rule (Routeing Guide Section F). There are no specific rules for routes that are 'shorter than the shortest route' that I am aware of.

I feel the shortest route is the shortest route, but this, apparently, is not a popular way of seeing it on this forum.

It seems that the popular way of seeing it is to say that the shortest route must be "entirely* by regular rail passenger services".

[*ignoring any walking necessary to change trains/platforms (but not stations, even if the walk between stations is shorter than some walks between platforms).]

Saying it must be entirely by rail means that simple, logical, recognised walking/bus/underground/tram/DLR interchanges would have to be ignored. For example, Cricklewood to Finchley Road and Frognal entirely by rail would require a trip to South London, despite the two north London stations only being about a mile and a half apart, thus leaving a route shorter than the shortest route (by some margin) through use of a recognised interchange at West Hampstead.

When I last saw this view point explained, the argument was that a route that is 'shorter than the shortest route' is 'longer by no more than three miles', because a shorter route is a negative number of miles longer and is thus 'no more than three miles longer', apparently. I can't think of any other topic where something that is shorter would be described as 'longer', for example, you wouldn't hear anyone saying that a 100m race is longer than a marathon race, or that a class 319 is longer than a class 390.

The alternative view point is that the shortest route can use a recognised interchange. In the example I give that would be West Hampstead Thameslink to West Hampstead. This would mean that the shortest route would infact be the shortest route and thus there would be no shorter routes to worry about. The only reason I can see for this not being popular is that it reduces the number of, frankly, absurd routes that some people want to justify.

 

[Merseysider]

The only reason I can see for this not being popular is that it reduces the number of, frankly, absurd routes that people want to justify.

Exactly, and where's the fun in that?

I think this is something we could all discuss to death but would never reach consensus on. It requires clarification from ATOC.

 

[RJ]

I feel the shortest route is the shortest route, but this, apparently, is not a popular way of seeing it on this forum.

It seems that the popular way of seeing it is to say that the shortest route must be "entirely* by regular rail passenger services".

[*ignoring any walking necessary to change trains/platforms (but not stations, even if the walk between stations is shorter than some walks between platforms).]

It's not just this forum, it's the contextual definition used by ATOC and thus the booking engines. Whatever precedence is set, there will always be ways for determined people to take the p*ss. I can certainly forsee the inclusion of transfers opening up a different can of worms.

 

[kieron]

The alternative view point is that the shortest route can use a recognised interchange. In the example I give that would be West Hampstead Thameslink to West Hampstead. This would mean that the shortest route would infact be the shortest route and thus there would be no shorter routes to worry about. The only reason I can see for this not being popular is that it reduces the number of, frankly, absurd routes that some people want to justify.

There are absurdities however you work things. For instance, consider someone travelling from Huyton to Sandhills.

The shortest route by rail goes Huyton-Liverpool Lime Street-Liverpool Central-Moorfields-Sandhills. There is a recognised walk from Liverpool Lime Street to Liverpool Central, for which you are allowed 12 minutes, and there are also frequent trains during the day, taking 2 minutes. Journey planners add in 20 minutes for the interchange times at both stations.

Huyton is a routeing point. Sandhills is part of Liverpool group. The route has an origin routeing point and a destination routeing point, and the stations do not have a routeing point in common. This means that the 3 mile rule is not invoked.

As Sandhills is part of Liverpool group, you do not benefit from the special rules for station groups.

The only mapped route from Huyton to Liverpool group is via Wavertree, and the only tickets are routed "via Liverpool".

I can't find anything in the routeing guide to say what routes you are allowed to take between the first station in the routeing group and your destination. I shall assume this does not allow any extra routes.

The route with a walk is 1/2 mile shorter that the route without one, as you're replacing a train journey with the walk, and walking doesn't add anything to the journey distance.

If you take the route with the walk to be the shortest (and the train-only route to be invalid) you would not be allowed to travel on the Wirral line when going from Huyton to Sandhills. If you take the train-only route to be the shortest, you could use either route, as the route with the walk only uses trains the train-only one does, and every ticket for this route allows break of journey.

I would consider expecting someone to transport their luggage through the streets at their own cost absurd when there's a perfectly good train available. As shown above, NRE is happy to recommend both routes.

On an unrelated note, NRE has messed up the ticket validity for the journey above. The off-peak ticket has an afternoon restriction on the "City Line" train from Huyton, but not on the "Northern Line" train to Sandhills. NRE has mistakenly applied it to both.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The alternative view point is that the shortest route can use a recognised interchange. In the example I give that would be West Hampstead Thameslink to West Hampstead. This would mean that the shortest route would infact be the shortest route and thus there would be no shorter routes to worry about. The only reason I can see for this not being popular is that it reduces the number of, frankly, absurd routes that some people want to justify.

I'm mostly with you there, but where it gets difficult is situations like the two Burscoughs, which if you are a fully mobile adult are absolutely fine (it's about 20 minutes walk) and most likely the quickest way from West Lancashire to Wigan and Manchester, but are no good if you're of limited mobility because you'd have to take a taxi between the two stations (or a relatively infrequent bus) at your own expense.

So I'd be with you (to use one example) that it would be reasonable to say the shortest route from, to pick a random example from round there, Gathurst to Leyland would be via the two Wigans. But I wouldn't say the shortest route from Ormskirk to Wigan should be via the Burscoughs, as they're too far apart to necessarily be useful. Though those who are mobile enough should be allowed to use such routes (though in reality they would be best advised to split tickets instead, as usually there is a saving in those cases - certainly in latter day BR days it was cheapest to split Aughton Park to Wigan/Manchester twice, at both Ormskirk and the Burscoughs).

A not unreasonable decider might be something like "if it's a group for fares purposes, it counts as one station for interchange purposes", perhaps? But then that knackers...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I would consider expecting someone to transport their luggage through the streets at their own cost absurd when there's a perfectly good train available. As shown above, NRE is happy to recommend both routes.

I agree on that one - it would be ridiculous not to permit use of the train - though if you don't use the lift at both ends I'm convinced you'll walk further getting to/from the deep level platforms than you would at street level.

Logically this would be solved (in this case) by allowing the 3 mile rule to apply to all shortest routes, not just some of them.

 

[furlong]

A not unreasonable decider might be something like "if it's a group for fares purposes, it counts as one station for interchange purposes", perhaps?

Only the "useful transfers" documented in the timetable. (I still don't understand why that list remains so short.) Where there are other sensible routes too, they are mapped.

I refer back to my posts on http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=95287

 

[Starmill]

On an unrelated note, NRE has messed up the ticket validity for the journey above. The off-peak ticket has an afternoon restriction on the "City Line" train from Huyton, but not on the "Northern Line" train to Sandhills. NRE has mistakenly applied it to both.

Very typical NRE.

 

[RJ]

Only the "useful transfers" documented in the timetable. (I still don't understand why that list remains so short.) Where there are other sensible routes too, they are mapped.

I refer back to my posts on http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=95287

A more complete list of transfers used in the journey planners are in the public domain and published on the ATOC website.

 

[kieron]

There was another update on Thursday. As usual, there are winners and losers from the changes.

New Dataset RJRG0360 published 21 May 2015

A review of routes to the Salisbury Routeing Point, prompted by a customer comment has led to the following changes. Primarily this has seen the replacement of map sequences using map RB and LE that were intended to show permisions from Basingstoke to Salisbury, but allowed circuitous routes via Basingstoke and Weymouth.

Map sequence added

Barnetby (BTB) and Salisbury (SAL) - added sequence 'BG+BB'
Barnetby (BTB) and Salisbury (SAL) - added sequence 'BH+BB'
Barnetby (BTB) and Salisbury (SAL) - added sequence 'DG+BB'
Barnetby (BTB) and Salisbury (SAL) - added sequence 'SH+BY+BB' Habrough (HAB) and Salisbury (SAL) - added sequence 'BG+BB'
Habrough (HAB) and Salisbury (SAL) - added sequence 'BH+BB'
Habrough (HAB) and Salisbury (SAL) - added sequence 'DG+BB'
Habrough (HAB) and Salisbury (SAL) - added sequence 'SH+BY+BB'

Map sequence removed

Barnetby (BTB) and Salisbury (SAL) - removed sequence 'BG+RB+LE'
Barnetby (BTB) and Salisbury (SAL) - removed sequence 'DG+RB+LE'
Barnetby (BTB) and Salisbury (SAL) - removed sequence 'RH+LE'
Barnetby (BTB) and Salisbury (SAL) - removed sequence 'SH+RY+LE'
Habrough (HAB) and Salisbury (SAL) - removed sequence 'BG+RB+LE'
Habrough (HAB) and Salisbury (SAL) - removed sequence 'DG+RB+LE'
Habrough (HAB) and Salisbury (SAL) - removed sequence 'RH+LE'
Habrough (HAB) and Salisbury (SAL) - removed sequence 'SH+RY+LE'​

The mapped routes via Weymouth and via Stratford upon Avon have been removed.
As has a route via Tamworth, Lichfield, Birmingham, Nuneaton and Coventry.

Brockenhurst (BCU) and BANBURY GROUP (G58) - added sequence 'RH'
Brockenhurst (BCU) and BANBURY GROUP (G58) - removed sequence 'RB'​

Removes mapped routes via Botley.

Brockenhurst (BCU) and Oxford (OXF) - added sequence 'RH'
Brockenhurst (BCU) and Oxford (OXF) - removed sequence 'RB'
WEYMOUTH GROUP (G33) and Oxford (OXF) - added sequence 'RH'
WEYMOUTH GROUP (G33) and Oxford (OXF) - removed sequence 'RB'​

Removes mapped routes via Portsmouth Group (including ones via Botley).

Havant (HAV) and Oxford (OXF) - added sequence 'BB'
Havant (HAV) and Oxford (OXF) - removed sequence 'RB'​

Now mapped via Botley (where it had previously only been on mapped routes via Guildford).

Oxford (OXF) and Salisbury (SAL) - added sequence 'BB'
Oxford (OXF) and Salisbury (SAL) - removed sequence 'RB+LE'​

No longer mapped via Weymouth.

To allow Journey Planners to show journeys between the Bath and Ladybank, Invekeithing (G50) and Routeing Points to be valid via Cheltenham, Birmingham, Tamworth, Doncaster and the ECML the following changes have been published

Map sequence added

Bath Spa (BTH) and INVERKEITHING GROUP (G50) - added sequence 'CE+YA'
Bath Spa (BTH) and KIRKCALDY GROUP (G51) - added sequence 'CE+YA'
Bath Spa (BTH) and Ladybank (LDY) - added sequence 'CE+YA'​

There are now mapped routes via Cheltenham and Chesterfield.

Following customer comment on routeing from the Wirral to Manchester the following amendments have been published

Map sequence added

LIVERPOOL GROUP (G18) and WIGAN GROUP (G34) - added sequence 'CP'​

There's now a mapped route from Wigan to Liverpool using the infrequent trains via Earlestown. There are also mapped routes using the Northern Line north of Liverpool.

MANCHESTER GROUP (G20) and Hooton (HOO) - added sequence 'JO+AW'​

This adds a new slow route via Warrington Central, Warrington Bank Quay and Chester.

A review of map permissions for the Dorking (G10),Redhill (G60), & Tonbridge (TON) Routeing Points to Routeing Points in Kent has led to the following amendments.

Map sequence added

DORKING GROUP (G10) and Strood Kent (SOO) - added sequence 'AR+KL'
Faversham (FAV) and REDHILL GROUP (G60) - added sequence 'FB+XE'
REDHILL GROUP (G60) and Strood Kent (SOO) - added sequence 'XE+KL'​

These now have mapped routes via Edenbridge and Paddock Wood.

Map sequence removed

REDHILL GROUP (G60) and Tonbridge (TON) - removed sequence 'LB+RA'
REDHILL GROUP (G60) and Tonbridge (TON) - removed sequence 'LO'​

'LO' doesn't refer to the (unused) LO map here, but means that you can't use Redhill-London and London-Tonbridge maps to calculate a route.
This means these tickets no longer have mapped routes via Croydon, but only on the shortest route via Edenbridge. This makes the "+Any Permitted" tickets in this area a bit pointless.

Ashford International. (AFK) and DORKING GROUP (G10) - removed sequence 'DE+DK'
Ashford International. (AFK) and DORKING GROUP (G10) - removed sequence 'LO'
Ashford International. (AFK) and DORKING GROUP (G10) - removed sequence 'RA+DK'
Ashford International. (AFK) and DORKING GROUP (G10) - removed sequence 'VH+DK'​

No longer mapped via London or Leatherhead.

Ashford International. (AFK) and REDHILL GROUP (G60) - removed sequence 'DE+LB'
Ashford International. (AFK) and REDHILL GROUP (G60) - removed sequence 'LO'
Ashford International. (AFK) and REDHILL GROUP (G60) - removed sequence 'RA+LB'
Ashford International. (AFK) and REDHILL GROUP (G60) - removed sequence 'VH+LB'
Ashford International. (AFK) and REDHILL GROUP (G60) - removed sequence 'XE'​

No longer mapped via Croydon or Gatwick.

For journeys from York to South Yorkshire the following amendments have been made

Map sequence added

Swinton (South Yorks) (SWN) and York (YRK) - added sequence 'NB+YM'​

Now mapped via Pontefract

For the diversion of the Night Riviera service on 31 May, which had the impact of preventing Journey Planners showing connections to the Up London Service from branch line station origins in Cornwall and Devon the following map easement has been applied. This has the impact of override the permanent map permissions to London for this temporary diversion.

Map sequence added

WESTBURY GROUP (G46) and Taunton (TAU) - added sequence 'BU+OP'

Map sequence removed

WESTBURY GROUP (G46) and Taunton (TAU) - removed sequence 'SN+PB'​

This removes the mapped routes via Chippenham. It's nothing to do with the text above, as far as I can tell.

New easement


700581: This map easement has been published to allow journey planners to show connecting journeys on the Night Riviera Sleeper service to London Paddington departing on Sunday 31 May 2015, when this service is diverted via Honiton and Yeovil.​

NRE allows a London-Falmouth ticket (for instance) to be used on the sleeper via Newbury and Yeovil, but this easement is specifically in the other direction. I don't know why.

The text of easement 700572 has been changed, but only to call it a "Fare Route easement".

 

[kieron]

There were some more changes on Friday:

New Dataset RJRG0361 published 29 May 2015

Following a report from Nre that there were only Routeing Guide map permissions via London (G01) for a journey origin Trowbridge - destination South Croydon. the following amendments made.

Map sequence added

CROYDON GROUP (G08) and WESTBURY GROUP (G46) - added sequence 'LP+WW+BU'​

This addresses the issue by adds a route via Balham, Wimbledon, Basingstoke and Salisbury, so someone with a "Warminster-Salisbury" ticket doesn't have to go via central London.
Someone going from Trowbridge to South Croydon with a "via Newbury" ticket could already avoid London as the shortest route goes that way.

STREATHAM GROUP (G29) and WESTBURY GROUP (G46) - added sequence 'BU'
STREATHAM GROUP (G29) and WESTBURY GROUP (G46) - added sequence 'LP+WV+BU'
STREATHAM GROUP (G29) and WESTBURY GROUP (G46) - added sequence 'LP+WX+RL'
STREATHAM GROUP (G29) and WESTBURY GROUP (G46) - added sequence 'LP+WX+SM+PC'
STREATHAM GROUP (G29) and WESTBURY GROUP (G46) - added sequence 'RU+PC'

Map sequence removed

STREATHAM GROUP (G29) and WESTBURY GROUP (G46) - removed sequence 'SC+WC'
STREATHAM GROUP (G29) and WESTBURY GROUP (G46) - removed sequence 'SC+WX+PC'
STREATHAM GROUP (G29) and WESTBURY GROUP (G46) - removed sequence 'SC+WX+WE'​

For anyone travelling via London, this removes the mapped routes via Sutton, Croydon, Crystal Palace, Peckham Rye, or both Reading and Wimbledon.
If avoiding London, it removes the mapped routes via Sutton, and also ones via Woking which also go via Virginia Water.
It also removes some mapped routes which go directly from Streatham to Clapham Junction, and later go via Chertsey.
It adds mapped routes avoiding London which go via Basingstoke and Swindon.

Following report from SWT, that Journey Planner was not showing as valid journeys on tickets routed on 00478 AP FGW/ATW, that travelled via Newport (S Wales), new permissions added.

Map sequence added

SOUTHAMPTON GROUP (G26) and WREXHAM GROUP (G49) - added sequence 'SN+AW'​

There is now a mapped route via Newport.
This means that advance tickets can now be made available via Salisbury and Hereford, and "via Hereford" walk up tickets no longer have mapped routes via Basingstoke and Hereford.

I wonder if this problem would have arisen if they'd offered "AP Shrewsbury" advance tickets in the first place.

Following customer comment on routeing on the SWT network the following changes were made.

Map sequence added

READING GROUP (G24) and New Malden (NEM) - added sequence 'WX'
READING GROUP (G24) and Surbiton (SUR) - added sequence 'WX'
READING GROUP (G24) and WEYBRIDGE GROUP (G82) - added sequence 'WX'

Map sequence removed

READING GROUP (G24) and New Malden (NEM) - removed sequence 'WX+SU'
READING GROUP (G24) and Surbiton (SUR) - removed sequence 'WX+SU'
READING GROUP (G24) and WEYBRIDGE GROUP (G82) - removed sequence 'WX+SU'​

These remove mapped routes via Kingston.

READING GROUP (G24) and STREATHAM GROUP (G29) - added sequence 'WX+LP'
READING GROUP (G24) and STREATHAM GROUP (G29) - removed sequence 'WX+SC'​

This removes mapped routes via Croydon, Wimbledon and Crystal Palace.

LONDON GROUP (G01) and WEYBRIDGE GROUP (G82) - added sequence 'WX'
LONDON GROUP (G01) and WEYBRIDGE GROUP (G82) - added sequence 'WX+WU'​

No effect.

Surbiton (SUR) and Twickenham (TWI) - added sequence 'WX'
Surbiton (SUR) and Twickenham (TWI) - removed sequence 'EF+TW'​

This adds a mapped route via Clapham Junction and Feltham.

A review of map permissions from Horsham Routeing Point has led to the following changes.

Map sequence added

Ashford International. (AFK) and Horsham (HRH) - added sequence 'TN+LF'​

This adds a mapped route via Edenbridge and Gatwick. This is the shortest route from Ashford to Horsham, but may not be for all of the associated stations.

Dover Priory (DVP) and Horsham (HRH) - added sequence 'TN+LF'​

This adds a mapped route via Edenbridge. This is also the shortest route between the two.

Faversham (FAV) and Horsham (HRH) - added sequence 'FB+XE+LF'​

This adds a mapped route via Edenbridge. Here the shortest route is via Bromley, and doesn't appear on any of the maps.

Horsham (HRH) and Sevenoaks (SEV) - added sequence 'LF+VA'
Horsham (HRH) and Sevenoaks (SEV) - added sequence 'LF+XE'

Map sequence removed

Horsham (HRH) and Sevenoaks (SEV) - removed sequence 'LB+VH'
Horsham (HRH) and Sevenoaks (SEV) - removed sequence 'LB+VR'​

This adds a mapped route via Edenbridge and Gatwick (which, again, is the shortest route between the routeing points).
It removes routes via Tunbrigde Wells, and ones which involve travelling from Norwood Junction to Crystal Palace, and then on to Beckenham Junction.

OTFORD GROUP (G83) and Horsham (HRH) - added sequence 'FO+XE+XB'​

This adds a mapped route via Edenbridge and Gatwick (again the shortest route).

Horsham (HRH) and Tonbridge (TON) - added sequence 'LF+TN'
Horsham (HRH) and Tonbridge (TON) - added sequence 'LF+VA'
Horsham (HRH) and Tonbridge (TON) - removed sequence 'LB+RA'
Horsham (HRH) and Tonbridge (TON) - removed sequence 'LB+VH'​

This adds a mapped route via Edenbridge and Gatwick (yet again the shortest route).
For someone avoiding London, it removes mapped routes via Tunbridge Wells, Peckham Rye and Norwood Junction, to leave only the routes via West Norwood.
If going via London, it removes mapped routes via Denmark Hill and New Cross, ones via Nunhead and Queen's Road Peckham, and a few other routes.

Easements removed as no longer applicable (engineering works)


700568: During engineering works over the Spring Bank Holiday weekend 23 to 25 May 2015, an hourly Manchester to London Euston service will start from Liverpool Lime street. Normally tickets between Liverpool and London are not valid via Manchester. This Map eassement allows that routeing for the duration of the engineering works. This easement applies in both directions.
700569: Due to engineering works between 23 and 25 May 2015 on the WCML, between Preston Brook Tunnel and Crewe Coal yard, permitted routes will require amending to allow Journey Planners to find journeys for trains that will be diverted via Frodsham and the Chester Routeing Point to Crewe. This Map easement will apply in both directions.
700572: During engineering works from 23 May 2015 to 25 May 2015, customers travelling from the Oxford area Chippenham, Bath Spa and beyond with tickets routed 00810 Not Via Reading may travel via Reading. This Fare Route easement applies in both directions.
700574: During engineering works 23 to 25 May 2015 passengers travelling from Gloucester and Cheltenham to London can travel via Bristol Temple Meads and Newbury. When using tickets on routes 00807 Via Stroud and 00808 Reading & Stroud. This positive map easement applies in both directions
700577: During engineering work between 23 and 25 May 2015, journeys from Cheltenham and Gloucester to London using tickets routed 00000 Any permitted, or via Stroud 00827, 00808, 00807, 00803 may use Cross Country services to Birmingham New Street and then onward by Virgin Trains only to London Euston. This positive map easement applies in both directions
700579: During engineering works 23-25 May 2015 tickets on routes 00808 Reading/Stroud & 00807 Via Stroud from Cheltenham Spa and Gloucester to London will be valid via Bristol Parkway and Newbury. This Fare Route easement will operate in both directions.
700580: During engineering works 23 - 25 May 2015, tickets on routes 0000 Any Permitted and 00803 Evesham/Stroud; 00827 London Stroud/Evesham; 00807 Via Stroud; 00808 Reading & Stroud, from Gloucester and Cheltenham to or via London Paddington will be valid via Birmingham New Street, using Cross Country services to Birmingham. And onward by Virgin Train services from Birmingham New Street to London Euston. This fare route easement applies in both directions​

All obsolete, as stated.

 

[kieron]

There were some more changes to the Routeing Guide yesterday (Monday), although it appears to only be for the benefit of journey planners.

New Dateset RJRG0363 published 08 June 2015

Following changes to the timetable data, where certain train schedules excluded a timing at Farnborough North (FNN) as a passing point; the following map sequences were changed. The replacement maps include timing links between the GLD and WKM Routeing Points, which allows schedules to pass Routeing Guide rules without the train schedule passing through FNN. Without these changes Journey planners would not generate correct schedules for some journeys.

Map sequence added

Cheltenham Spa (CNM) and Guildford (GLD) - added sequence 'BL+XC'
Cheltenham Spa (CNM) and Guildford (GLD) - added sequence 'LG+XS'
Gloucester (GCR) and Guildford (GLD) - added sequence 'BL+XC'
Gloucester (GCR) and Guildford (GLD) - added sequence 'LG+XS'


Map sequences removed
Cheltenham Spa (CNM) and Guildford (GLD) - removed sequence 'BL+XR'
Cheltenham Spa (CNM) and Guildford (GLD) - removed sequence 'LG+XR'
Gloucester (GCR) and Guildford (GLD) - removed sequence 'BL+XR'
Gloucester (GCR) and Guildford (GLD) - removed sequence 'LG+XR'​

No effect.

To broaden options with Journey Planning, a new applicable location Shieldmuir (SDM) has been added to an easement, to allow additional journeys to Carstairs to travel via GLC


Easements changed
700253: Customers travelling via Lockerbie to Carstairs may double back via Glasgow Central.​

I don't know what they've changed here. I imagine it would be quite hard to do this journey without going through Shieldmuir twice. Journeys to Shieldmuir itself benefit from easement 700245.

 

[kieron]

There was another update yesterday.

New Dataset RJEG0364 published 19 June 2015

Stations added


Ebbw Vale Town (EBB) has been added
Newcourt (NCO) has been added

Following customer comment​

Also following someone spending millions of pounds building the things.
Newcourt is associated with Exeter, and Ebbw Vale Town with Cardiff (which seem fairly obvious, except that some of the stations on the Ebbw Vale line are also associated with Newport, with no obvious pattern to which is which).

Map sequence added

EXETER GROUP (G12) and WESTBURY GROUP (G46) - added sequence 'SP+BU'​

No effect.

NOTTINGHAM GROUP (G43) and Kirkham And Wesham (KKM) - added sequence 'NB+NP'
NOTTINGHAM GROUP (G43) and Preston (Lancs) (PRE) - added sequence 'NB+NP'​

This adds mapped routes which go via Leeds and Burnley.

Review of Guildford Routeing point has resulted in the following changes


Map sequence added

Clapham Junction (CLJ) and Guildford (GLD) - added sequence 'WX'
Guildford (GLD) and Salisbury (SAL) - added sequence 'WX+EU'​

No effect.

STREATHAM GROUP (G29) and Guildford (GLD) - added sequence 'FC+DK'
STREATHAM GROUP (G29) and Guildford (GLD) - added sequence 'FC+EF'
STREATHAM GROUP (G29) and Guildford (GLD) - added sequence 'FC+WX'
STREATHAM GROUP (G29) and Guildford (GLD) - added sequence 'LP+XE+DK'
STREATHAM GROUP (G29) and Guildford (GLD) - added sequence 'PU'
STREATHAM GROUP (G29) and Guildford (GLD) - added sequence 'TK+HE'

Map sequence removed

STREATHAM GROUP (G29) and Guildford (GLD) - removed sequence 'LB+WX+SC+PD'
STREATHAM GROUP (G29) and Guildford (GLD) - removed sequence 'SC+PD'
STREATHAM GROUP (G29) and Guildford (GLD) - removed sequence 'SC+SD'​

Several sets of mapped routes have been removed:
Routes via Norwood Junction, New Cross Gate, Peckham Rye and via Dorking;
Routes via Sutton and Clapham Junction or Raynes Park (that is, all of the ones which were shown on the maps beforehand);
Routes via Barnes and Balham or Feltham.
The shortest route from Streatham station to Guildford, which runs via Wimbledon, Surbiton and Effingham Junction.

Mapped routes have been added which go via Sutton, Leatherhead and Effingham Junction.
Another has been added via Balham, Earlsfield and Leatherhead.

Following customer comment on availability of a route via Horsham, the following changes have been made.


Map sequence added

WEYMOUTH GROUP (G33) and Gatwick Airport (GTW) - added sequence 'CW+LP'
WEYMOUTH GROUP (G33) and REDHILL GROUP (G60) - added sequence 'CW+LP'​

Now mapped via Horsham.

WEYMOUTH GROUP (G33) and Three Bridges (TBD) - added sequence 'CW+LP'
WEYMOUTH GROUP (G33) and Three Bridges (TBD) - added sequence 'XR+LP'


Map sequences removed
WEYMOUTH GROUP (G33) and Three Bridges (TBD) - removed sequence 'CW+LB'​

This adds mapped routes via Horsham, and removes the ones via Brighton.

Easements

Easements removed removed out of date.
700581: This map easement has been published to allow journey planners to show connecting journeys on the Night Riviera Sleeper service to London Paddington departing on Sunday 31 May 2015, when this service is diverted via Honiton and Yeovil.​

Out of date, as mentioned.

 

[hassaanhc]

Booking engines give an error when putting in a Hounslow to Guildford journey. Only if you force a via point of Chertsey (or adjacent stations) do you get results. Putting in a via point of Clapham Junction also gives no results.

There are two sets of fares:
VIA VIRGINIA WTR
LONDON NOT UND

Therefore it seems that the fare via London is not valid on any route currently! I had a brief look at the routing guide which suggests via Clapham Junction (if not all the way to/from London Waterloo) should be permitted. I informed SWT of the error a few days ago when I noticed it, but no changes have been made yet.

 

[FenMan]

The updating of the map sequences between STREATHAM GROUP (G29) and Guildford (GLD) has had consequences for originating stations west of Guildford on the North Downs Line.

For example, the route via Redhill to various stations in south London is now not permitted. Customers starting from Guildford can continue to take this route due to the existence of Via Redhill fares, but no such flexibility is afforded to journeys from the North Downs stations, who now have the options of a yomp via Clapham Junction or losing the will to live travelling via Epsom (or buying two tickets).

 

[kieron]

Booking engines give an error when putting in a Hounslow to Guildford journey. Only if you force a via point of Chertsey (or adjacent stations) do you get results.

Which booking engines did you check? According to Northern, there are tickets available, but not on the fastest route.

There are no valid tickets for the shortest route, either, which goes via Kingston and Effingham Junction.

There's no break of journey restriction on any of the tickets, so you may be fine following one of the routes via London, only to miss out the bit where it doubles back between Clapham Junction and London Waterloo (something allowed by easement 700014).

This doesn't seem to be connected with a recent change to the routeing guide. It doesn't seem to be a recent fare change, either, as farehistory.info says the "not London" fares vanished in 2008.

Customers starting from Guildford can continue to take this route due to the existence of Via Redhill fares, but no such flexibility is afforded to journeys from the North Downs stations, who now have the options of a yomp via Clapham Junction or losing the will to live travelling via Epsom (or buying two tickets).

I don't know where exactly you're talking about going from and to, but have you considered stopping or starting short on another ticket? There are lots of routeing points in south London.

 

[hassaanhc]

Which booking engines did you check? According to Northern, there are tickets available, but not on the fastest route.

There are no valid tickets for the shortest route, either, which goes via Kingston and Effingham Junction.

There's no break of journey restriction on any of the tickets, so you may be fine following one of the routes via London, only to miss out the bit where it doubles back between Clapham Junction and London Waterloo (something allowed by easement 700014).

This doesn't seem to be connected with a recent change to the routeing guide. It doesn't seem to be a recent fare change, either, as farehistory.info says the "not London" fares vanished in 2008.

It is beginning to show itineraries today on the Southern Mixingdeck and SWT Trainline, something that wasn't the case last night. However, any itinerary that gives a change at Clapham Junction doesn't show a fare next to it, only if it is for changing at Waterloo or at Virginia Water.

Most of the default list of results has changing at Clapham Junction and therefore no fare. SWT Trainline is better for showing changes at Waterloo by default.



The few results in the default list that show changing at Waterloo work fine.


As do the few results in the default list that show via Virginia Water.



You have to force them to show either all via Virginia Water, or all changing at London Waterloo.

 

[FenMan]

I don't know where exactly you're talking about going from and to, but have you considered stopping or starting short on another ticket? There are lots of routeing points in south London.

I have. Some useful tickets remain valid, but this change has made a significant difference.

Historically, I would guess that the issue is that routeing experts in the industry have always made a couple of assumptions that aren't necessarily valid i.e. that people living in the Blackwater Valley will tend to travel to South London stations via the SWML to Clapham Junction rather than via Redhill. These assumptions work for people living near to Farnborough (Main), Aldershot and Ash Vale stations, but don't work if their local station is Blackwater, Farnborough North, North Camp or Ash, where the journey times can be significantly shorter travelling via Redhill.

 

[hluraven]

There was another update on Thursday. As usual, there are winners and losers from the changes.

New Dataset RJRG0360 published 21 May 2015

A review of routes to the Salisbury Routeing Point, prompted by a customer comment has led to the following changes. Primarily this has seen the replacement of map sequences using map RB and LE that were intended to show permisions from Basingstoke to Salisbury, but allowed circuitous routes via Basingstoke and Weymouth.

Map sequence added

Barnetby (BTB) and Salisbury (SAL) - added sequence 'BG+BB'
Barnetby (BTB) and Salisbury (SAL) - added sequence 'BH+BB'
Barnetby (BTB) and Salisbury (SAL) - added sequence 'DG+BB'
Barnetby (BTB) and Salisbury (SAL) - added sequence 'SH+BY+BB' Habrough (HAB) and Salisbury (SAL) - added sequence 'BG+BB'
Habrough (HAB) and Salisbury (SAL) - added sequence 'BH+BB'
Habrough (HAB) and Salisbury (SAL) - added sequence 'DG+BB'
Habrough (HAB) and Salisbury (SAL) - added sequence 'SH+BY+BB'

Map sequence removed

Barnetby (BTB) and Salisbury (SAL) - removed sequence 'BG+RB+LE'
Barnetby (BTB) and Salisbury (SAL) - removed sequence 'DG+RB+LE'
Barnetby (BTB) and Salisbury (SAL) - removed sequence 'RH+LE'
Barnetby (BTB) and Salisbury (SAL) - removed sequence 'SH+RY+LE'
Habrough (HAB) and Salisbury (SAL) - removed sequence 'BG+RB+LE'
Habrough (HAB) and Salisbury (SAL) - removed sequence 'DG+RB+LE'
Habrough (HAB) and Salisbury (SAL) - removed sequence 'RH+LE'
Habrough (HAB) and Salisbury (SAL) - removed sequence 'SH+RY+LE'​

The mapped routes via Weymouth and via Stratford upon Avon have been removed.
As has a route via Tamworth, Lichfield, Birmingham, Nuneaton and Coventry.

Brockenhurst (BCU) and BANBURY GROUP (G58) - added sequence 'RH'
Brockenhurst (BCU) and BANBURY GROUP (G58) - removed sequence 'RB'​

Removes mapped routes via Botley.

Brockenhurst (BCU) and Oxford (OXF) - added sequence 'RH'
Brockenhurst (BCU) and Oxford (OXF) - removed sequence 'RB'
WEYMOUTH GROUP (G33) and Oxford (OXF) - added sequence 'RH'
WEYMOUTH GROUP (G33) and Oxford (OXF) - removed sequence 'RB'​

Removes mapped routes via Portsmouth Group (including ones via Botley).

Havant (HAV) and Oxford (OXF) - added sequence 'BB'
Havant (HAV) and Oxford (OXF) - removed sequence 'RB'​

Now mapped via Botley (where it had previously only been on mapped routes via Guildford).

Oxford (OXF) and Salisbury (SAL) - added sequence 'BB'
Oxford (OXF) and Salisbury (SAL) - removed sequence 'RB+LE'​

No longer mapped via Weymouth

I am looking into moving half way between Brockenhurst and Salisbury. Am I right in thinking that as a result of these changes, there is now no annual season ticket that I can get that would allow me to go from London and choose either destination without paying an excess?

 

[Bletchleyite]

delete, wrong info

 

[bb21]

I am looking into moving half way between Brockenhurst and Salisbury. Am I right in thinking that as a result of these changes, there is now no annual season ticket that I can get that would allow me to go from London and choose either destination without paying an excess?

You couldn't excess a season ticket anyway. If off-route, you will have to purchase a separate ticket for the section not covered.

 

[kieron]

It is beginning to show itineraries today on the Southern Mixingdeck and SWT Trainline, something that wasn't the case last night. However, any itinerary that gives a change at Clapham Junction doesn't show a fare next to it, only if it is for changing at Waterloo or at Virginia Water.

While true, it doesn't mean it isn't valid. Booking engines don't show situations where you break your journey, other than to change trains at a station. This means they'd never show the journeys which require a traveller to use a "via London" ticket to go via Clapham Junction but miss out the double back via London.

If I used the ticket myself, I'd send an e-mail to SWT (who price the tickets) about the problem of no fare being offered by ticket engines on the fastest route (amongst others). Things would be so much easier if there was a "Clapham Junction not London" ticket, or even a "Clapham Junction not Underground" one.

I have. Some useful tickets remain valid, but this change has made a significant difference.

I know it has, but it is quite variable it its effects (like most routeing guide changes, to be honest). For instance, someone going from Farnborough to Streatham Common via Redhill can pay the same as before, while someone going to Balham has to pay a couple of pounds extra.

I am looking into moving half way between Brockenhurst and Salisbury. Am I right in thinking that as a result of these changes, there is now no annual season ticket that I can get that would allow me to go from London and choose either destination without paying an excess?

None of the routes which changed then involved both Weymouth and London.

While there are tickets which are valid either way (Yeovil Pen Mill-London being one), you'd pay a lot for a ticket valid that far west, and you don't need to pay the extra to get what you've asked for.

One season ticket you could consider is a Romsey-London one*. It's valid via Salisbury by itself. To go from Brockenhurst, you'd need a Brockenhurst-Redbridge return ticket each day (but wouldn't need to catch a train which stopped in Redbridge if you were using a season ticket with a ticket which isn't a season ticket).

* I did also look at Chandler's Ford-London, which is a bit cheaper. nationalrail.co.uk said it needed two tickets, and I couldn't see why.

 

[FenMan]

I know it has, but it is quite variable it its effects (like most routeing guide changes, to be honest). For instance, someone going from Farnborough to Streatham Common via Redhill can pay the same as before, while someone going to Balham has to pay a couple of pounds extra.

According to NRE, Farnborough North to Streatham Common via Redhill requires 2 tickets. This route is also disallowed by FGW's Mixing Deck.

EDIT: 4 July
I tried the same journey in NRE just now and it's now reverted to reporting that a single ticket is required, however this route is still being disallowed by FGW's Mixing Deck.

The Routeing Guide changes to STREATHAM GROUP (G29) and Guildford (GLD) mapped routes definitely messed up this route. Has something has been rolled back?

 

[Andrew1395]

I am looking into moving half way between Brockenhurst and Salisbury. Am I right in thinking that as a result of these changes, there is now no annual season ticket that I can get that would allow me to go from London and choose either destination without paying an excess?

What about Dorchester ? Have not got the fares to compare with Salisbury