• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Network Rail blasted over Dawlish sea wall death

Purple Train

Established Member
Joined
16 Jul 2022
Messages
1,500
Location
Darkest Commuterland
And of those people, how many don't have a mobile phone with a torch on it?
Fair enough. Mine doesn't have a torch function, but then I have heard it described as an antique!
No. For one thing, who decides that an injury or death is a result of 'stupidity'?
Quite. And how would such a thing be decided if the only witness to the victim's activities was the unfortunate victim themselves? A bunch of people who weren't there calling it a case of stupidity because the victim couldn't present a defence is perhaps the very antithesis of a just system.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Pinza-C55

Member
Joined
23 May 2015
Messages
1,035
Then there is “history”. After an incident any decent lawyer will ask “has this happened before?”

If the answer is yes, the next question is “what did you do about it?”

Fairly sure the next answer shouldn’t be “nothing”.

Are there such things as decent lawyers ?
Genuinely curious.
 

43096

On Moderation
Joined
23 Nov 2015
Messages
15,308
No. For one thing, who decides that an injury or death is a result of 'stupidity'?

Fair enough. Mine doesn't have a torch function, but then I have heard it described as an antique!
There we have it. So you’re happy for people to do whatever idiotic things they like, but it’s fine because they can sue someone for it.

And we wonder why Britain is such a screwed up mess.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,901
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
No. For one thing, who decides that an injury or death is a result of 'stupidity'?

That's often decided by Courts when someone sues, or by Coroners after a death. "Misadventure" is I believe the official name for the verdict that just implies that the subject did something dangerous (but not illegal) without properly assessing risk and sadly died as a result, or if just sueing for damages losing the case.
 
Joined
19 May 2011
Messages
128
Maybe it is about time that “Personal Responsibility” legislation was passed into law to stop others being penalised for someone’s stupidity?
Every time a serious incident affects the railway—definitely when there is a death or serious injury involved—we perform a pretty extensive review to understand the causes and appropriate mitigations that can be put in place.

I'm sure you're not suggesting, for example, that every time a track worker is injured because a COSS failed to put an effective SSOW and they wandered into the path of a train – we should put it down to "someone's stupidity" and not bother investigating?
 

akm

Member
Joined
21 Mar 2018
Messages
240
Everyone's getting themselves all confused when in fact it's really very easy!

Any negative consequence that befalls someone who did something I wouldn't do is down to stupidity and a lack of personal responsibility.
Any negative consequence that befalls someone who did something I would do is down to someone else failing in their job.

A useful idea to compare is how, when I'm driving on a motorway, all the other drivers can be divided into two groups: the maniacs, who are driving faster than me; and the idiots, who are driving slower than me.

now removing tongue from cheek...
 

najaB

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Aug 2011
Messages
30,840
Location
Scotland
That's often decided by Courts when someone sues, or by Coroners after a death. "Misadventure" is I believe the official name for the verdict that just implies that the subject did something dangerous (but not illegal) without properly assessing risk and sadly died as a result, or if just sueing for damages losing the case.
Indeed. But that is under the current law so I don't see what the proposed change is going to achieve.
There we have it. So you’re happy for people to do whatever idiotic things they like, but it’s fine because they can sue someone for it.
I'm not sure what the problem is? They (or their family) can sue and the courts decide if there's any merit to the case (assuming that the case isn't thrown out for being frivolous).
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,901
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Indeed. But that is under the current law so I don't see what the proposed change is going to achieve.

That was my point. The Coroner can already decide a death was through stupidity or personal negligence, the term for it is just the more polite "misadventure" rather than actually saying someone Darwinned themselves (note I'm not saying this happened here!).

And if you were being stupid and you sue, you simply lose the case and waste your money (or that of a no win no fee lawyer).
 

Taunton

Established Member
Joined
1 Aug 2013
Messages
10,093
It's a sufficiently common feature of life that there's a standard road sign warning about it

Edge.JPG
 

Purple Train

Established Member
Joined
16 Jul 2022
Messages
1,500
Location
Darkest Commuterland
That was my point. The Coroner can already decide a death was through stupidity or personal negligence, the term for it is just the more polite "misadventure" rather than actually saying someone Darwinned themselves (note I'm not saying this happened here!).
Misadventure encompasses both stupidity and personal negligence, but they are not quite one and the same - this is basically the objection I had to 43096's post. I think that, for instance, slipping and falling off the edge would count as misadventure as much as acting dangerously and falling off the edge. The former is definitely not stupidity, unless it is somehow stupid to have dreadful balance.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,901
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Misadventure encompasses both stupidity and personal negligence, but they are not quite one and the same - this is basically the objection I had to 43096's post. I think that, for instance, slipping and falling off the edge would count as misadventure as much as acting dangerously and falling off the edge. The former is definitely not stupidity, unless it is somehow stupid to have dreadful balance.

Stupidity is relative to be fair. Some people would consider it stupid, for instance, to walk along an unlit sea wall in the dark without a powerful torch (again not saying this happened here), but others might not. But yes I'd agree that misadventure does encompass both actually being stupid and just being a bit negligent.
 

geoffk

Established Member
Joined
4 Aug 2010
Messages
3,257
Is the railway authority in any other country responsible for coastal defences?
 

greyman42

Established Member
Joined
14 Aug 2017
Messages
4,947
I'm not sure what the problem is? They (or their family) can sue and the courts decide if there's any merit to the case (assuming that the case isn't thrown out for being frivolous).
The case would likely be thrown out.
 

Russel

Member
Joined
30 Jun 2022
Messages
1,169
Location
Lichfield
Local MP, who outside of Dawlish, is probably a nobody, trying to make a name for themselves...
 

GB

Established Member
Joined
16 Nov 2008
Messages
6,457
Location
Somewhere
Precisely, we don't need to go crackers and close the sea wall, install floodlights, employ bouncers or anything quite like that. But simply have a look at what simple, low cost and generally unobtrusive might reduce any obvious risk that's not been controlled for. Again the answer could well be there's nothing else we can do. But I suspect the actual answer will be paint a white line on the edge. Thousands and thousands of people walk the sea wall every week and nearly all without any incident. The risk is already clearly very low doesn't mean we can't make a few minor changes to reduce it further without negatively impacting on the amenity that the wall provides.

Yes that's certainly the sort of thing I had in mind if it's warranted at any point on the sea wall.
A painted line brings it's own risk, particularly in a potentially wet area right before a drop. What happens when people slip on the painted line, or where it gets weathered away?
 

ainsworth74

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
27,686
Location
Redcar
A painted line brings it's own risk, particularly in a potentially wet area right before a drop. What happens when people slip on the painted line, or where it gets weathered away?
I can't say I've noticed painted lines, using appropriate paint for outdoor surfaces, as being slippery! And as for weathering that would come under maintenance surely? Who paints all the white lines on platforms?
 

GB

Established Member
Joined
16 Nov 2008
Messages
6,457
Location
Somewhere
How often do painted white lines cause people to fall on the track?

On the track obviously not often, in large part due to the line being away from the edge, but that isn't what was suggested. I do see people slip from time to time though and the point is it is still an added risk.
 

Grecian 1998

Member
Joined
27 Oct 2019
Messages
420
Location
Bristol
There are large parts of the South West Coast Path (and likely many other coast paths) where the going is somewhat hazardous and a fall could easily result in injury or death. I remember walking along a particularly high and narrow ledge south of Porthleven some years ago. Some of the descents between Bude and Hartland Quay, or between Lulworth and Worbarrow Bay, are extremely steep and rather nerve wracking - if you stumble, you could travel a long way. Removing risk altogether would basically involve closing the coast path. Probably not going to happen, although some sections regularly do get closed after cliff / rock falls where the risk is considered too high.

Not on the coast path, but adjacent to it is the Cobb in Lyme Regis. For those who don't know it, a slippery harbour wall sloping downwards to the sea with no shelter from south westerly gales. A tourist was injured when they slipped on some algae in 1988 and sued West Dorset DC in Staples v West Dorset. WDDC weren't found to be negligent, but ever since then there have been warning signs about the risk if going onto the Cobb.

At Charmouth, where I grew up, there are numerous signs about swimming in the river Char and about going too close to the crumbling cliff edges. Invariably, most summers someone gets into trouble and complains that no-one warned them. However it never seems to go further than grumbling to the Dorset Echo.

As others have said, there are plenty of measures between doing nothing and total closure. A few warning signs at appropriate locations are usually sufficient.

Here in York, every few years there is a tragic case of a young person drowning in the river and the families embarking on campaigns for more and more signs, barriers, lights etc. It can be very difficult for friends and family to accept, and it's not uncommon for them to feel a sense of duty to do something to try to prevent future incidents. But our judgement can be impaired when we are upset; that's just part of being human.

I would agree. I have no idea on the details of this specific case, but in general terms I suspect that it is very difficult for the bereaved accepting that a loved one's recklessness may have contributed to their death (and again I am not suggesting I have any idea what happened here, nor am I suggesting recklessness negates negligence by another party). Much easier to blame someone or something else for not preventing the death.

I can't recall where but I'm sure I have read on this forum that a key reason why inquests are held for suicides on the railway is that the deceased's family will often try to blame the driver for not stopping - easier to focus their grief on a total stranger. The inquest is important for highlighting that this is invariably impossible and no blame attaches to the driver.
 

johnnychips

Established Member
Joined
19 Nov 2011
Messages
3,679
Location
Sheffield
^
I used to take foreign teenagers walking between Weymouth and Lulworth Cove. In the prepatory briefing, I stressed that if they fell over the cliff, they would die, and would need to be extra cautious: no running or messing around. Fortunately nobody did.
 

Attachments

  • IMG_7034.jpeg
    IMG_7034.jpeg
    3.6 MB · Views: 26

YorkshireBear

Established Member
Joined
23 Jul 2010
Messages
8,692
I hope NR don't overreact to this. Once we sa we will install barriers they have to be to code, what happens if the sea wall can't take the bolts for the handrails drilled into it. Can open, worms everywhere.
 

The Ham

Established Member
Joined
6 Jul 2012
Messages
10,328
Funnily enough, you rarely see calls for roads to be closed because of a death or two.

On one occasion I've been involved in doing so (as the accident rate was significantly bad) and the hoops required were significant.
 

ainsworth74

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
27,686
Location
Redcar
Funnily enough, you rarely see calls for roads to be closed because of a death or two.
I'm not sure anyone has argued that the sea wall should be closed (perhaps even including the parent, she just seems to want "changes")?
 

Typhoon

Established Member
Joined
2 Nov 2017
Messages
3,520
Location
Kent
^
I used to take foreign teenagers walking between Weymouth and Lulworth Cove. In the prepatory briefing, I stressed that if they fell over the cliff, they would die, and would need to be extra cautious: no running or messing around. Fortunately nobody did.

I'm sorry for any loss of life, and my condolences to Mrs Yevko for her loss, she did the right thing by moving here with her daughter. unfortunately it has had tragic results.
Many years ago, we used to take year 7 pupils to the Lake District, Scafell Pike was the highlight. I've walked parts of the South West Coast path, Snowdonia, Yorkshire coast from Filey going north (not quite as far as Redcar) the coast along by Beachy Head. Kent coast between Capel and St Margaret's Bay, I've been on footpaths that cross railway lines, just last week I walked through a nature reserve with several gravel excavations, some partially fenced off, some weren't, how about footpaths running along the side of rivers where thick mud is just a foot or two away. Much of this is easily accessible I even went through a park in London recently with very steep steps where it would be possible to fall some distance following a trip because of their zig-zag nature. We can't eliminate risk altogether without extremely high cost - much of the coast, hills ,river side walks, the already mentioned canals, some railway crossings including half barriers would need to be barriered. It just needs a little more in the way of warning. @ainsworth74 s white lines and a few more warning notices should suffice.

As far as the councillors go (and it isn't just councillor Baldwin), The simplest thing would be Network Rail to claim that significant mitigation that could be required would be too expensive, there is already a designated landside equivalent and request closure. This would undoubtedly affect tourism in the area. In their interest, settle for the white lines and warnings.

Incidentally, when I was in primary school, we used to have visits by (I guess it was) the British Transport Police and River police to warn us about playing on the railway/ by the river (Thames), has this sort of thing stopped?
 

The Ham

Established Member
Joined
6 Jul 2012
Messages
10,328
I'm not sure anyone has argued that the sea wall should be closed (perhaps even including the parent, she just seems to want "changes")?

Whilst a closure is probably a little extreme, some of the language is towards that sort of view - even if not actually calling for it.
 

Typhoon

Established Member
Joined
2 Nov 2017
Messages
3,520
Location
Kent
Whilst a closure is probably a little extreme, some of the language is towards that sort of view - even if not actually calling for it.
Also that we drift into TINA territory (There Is No Alternative), if there are objections to every suggestion put forward).
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
31,443
The problem I predict is that a vocal minority will point out the obvious pedestrian safety improvements that came with the phases of seawall rebuild between Coastguards footbridge and Parsons Tunnel, and take the unreasonable view that that should now be the expected safety standard everywhere.

Although I’m sure before work commenced alongside Marine Parade there were regular objections to the height of the wall on the seaward side, (I think it’s 1.2m), because it would spoil the view…
 

Top