Network Rail looking at how it could bring in 24 hour train service

[ChiefPlanner]

It would be great if the north london line was 24 hours on weekends. There seems to be little engineering/freight scheduled so could easily run a 2tph service. It would make a big difference, that route is very poorly served by alternatives (usually involves going into central london + back, causing a 500% increase in journey times). Last trains are always crush loaded also.

It would be great if the north london line was 24 hours on weekends. There seems to be little engineering/freight scheduled so could easily run a 2tph service. It would make a big difference, that route is very poorly served by alternatives (usually involves going into central london + back, causing a 500% increase in journey times). Last trains are always crush loaded also.

Plenty of overnight freight on the route. However UBER is a cheap , non subsidised way of doing what London Overground cannot provide ..

 

[syorksdeano]

Surely Crosscountry would benefit from 24 hour running?

 

[Starmill]

There may be places where it would be worth running a night bus, advertised in the rail timetable and honouring the return portion of rail tickets.

I think this is quite a good idea. It's a natural start point to my idea to use high quality bus services with rail tickets and infrastructure, and TOC branding etc, as a low cost test bed to reopen closed lines (e.g. Skipton - Colne).

Northern's new timetable almost has this, it has some trains replaced by bus services early on Sunday morning for periods of 5 months or more.

Thing is - most of us aren't even asking for 24 hour running! We just want later last services!

And for some of us it is just to stop the final train from being removed. My final train is being changed from 2357 to 2334 in May, which breaks a number of key connections for me.

 

[Andyh82]

Rather than an over the top press friendly story like this, later trains that are nearer Midnight than 10pm from the main cities would be a better more realistic aspiration.

I expect the RMT union will be preparing industrial action against any TOC that so much as suggests an extended late night service as we speak.

 

[mrmartin]

Plenty of overnight freight on the route. However UBER is a cheap , non subsidised way of doing what London Overground cannot provide ..

There is literally 0 freight I can see overnight on Friday and Saturday nights. This weekend at least.

 

[The Ham]

Where I could see this working is when the Western and Southern Approaches to Heathrow are operating and the Heathrow services operate 24/7 with then some limited connecting services from places like Southampton and Portsmouth.

 

[Mintona]

I expect the RMT union will be preparing industrial action against any TOC that so much as suggests an extended late night service as we speak.

Why would they be doing that?

 

[DarloRich]

I expect the RMT union will be preparing industrial action against any TOC that so much as suggests an extended late night service as we speak.

What on earth are you talking about? Dear me.

 

[edwin_m]

However UBER is a cheap , non subsidised way of doing what London Overground cannot provide ..

Uber is subsidised, just not by the British taxpayer. Tech investors are willing to pour money into it in the hope it will drive out the competition and make super-profits in future. Unwise to base policy on assuming it will continue to exist in its present form.

 

[yorksrob]

Didnt the Chris Gibb review of Southern highlight that the overnight trains mainly carried fresh air during the week and were rationalised to allow better access for maintenance. There may well be a case for later trains on Friday and Saturday nights on some routes but there would appear to be little evidence for widespread 7 days a week 24hr a day services. I travelled on plenty of overnight trains in BR days and many were virtually empty. There have been a number of studies done looking at running night coach services on key rail corridors out of London but they never came to anything - demand seems to be fairly erratic and one way only so making the whole operation uneconomic. How many cities are linked by 24hr coach services? I know London-Oxford and Edinburgh-Glasgow are - any others?

My line gets, and will continue to get earlier last trains on a Saturday night, so goodness knows what's going on there !

Wasn't the issue with the BML that there were an unnecessarily large number of competing services through the night - which wouldn't necessarily negate a skeleton service on some routes.

 

[yorksrob]

Having been personally involved in the ‘seven day railway’ initiative a few years ago, I can advise it was set up with laudable objectives, but unrealistic expectations. In particular many people missed the key, second, word in the initiative. It most certainly wasn’t the seven night railway initiative.


Fair comment - and that sort of delivered better awareness of the (Sunday) railway options and needs. Not sure if the money spent really delivered value.

As mentioned before , a city like London - maybe Birmingham -and maybe some key routes in other cities where airports etc are involved could maybe deliver some new all night services on a local / regional basis - but no-one in their right minds is going to consider say Sheffield - St Pancras either at stupid o clock.

All needs subsidy of course.

Well, I can't speak for everyone, but I could well imagine getting a train at silly o'clock from W Yorks to London, precisely because it avoids the need for a hotel !

There's a busy NX coach from Leeds to London at 00:20, which seems to cater for that sort of market, however whether there's much scope for more passengers I wouldn't know.

 

[Bucephalus]

I think this is quite a good idea. It's a natural start point to my idea to use high quality bus services with rail tickets and infrastructure, and TOC branding etc, as a low cost test bed to reopen closed lines (e.g. Skipton - Colne)...

After reading this thread, a nightbus service organised by the tocs or NR resonates with me the most. If they're being used on a fixed timetable they could even be purpose-built and branded as railbus or something

 

[Bletchleyite]

Uber is subsidised, just not by the British taxpayer. Tech investors are willing to pour money into it in the hope it will drive out the competition and make super-profits in future. Unwise to base policy on assuming it will continue to exist in its present form.

If Uber is losing money operationally (rather than it being investment for expansion into new areas i.e. growing the business) it's not very efficient. The local minicab companies in MK (Skyline and Speedline primarily, but there are others) have apps offering the same features as Uber (actually more features, as you can advance book), are significantly cheaper (about £6-7 for a typical journey where Uber would cost £10), and are profitable.

The service is so good (and quick on MK's car-designed road system) that they are a serious threat to Arriva. More expensive than the bus if travelling alone (but once there's two of you much less so), but even people with limited funds often consider them worth paying for.

There's been no sign of Uberpool or similar yet (possibly because I'm not clear it is actually legal under UK law) but that, if it did happen, would cause Arriva serious harm.

 

[jon0844]

After reading this thread, a nightbus service organised by the tocs or NR resonates with me the most. If they're being used on a fixed timetable they could even be purpose-built and branded as railbus or something

Yes this could work. Like night buses that follow tube lines. But it does require more than just swapping from a train to bus at a certain time. Staff and signage to give information, given that if a bus doesn't run or show up the railway presumably has to sort a taxi or hotel as usual.

And the issue of revenue protection and security.

 

[furnessvale]

i bet there's plenty of suppressed demand due to them not running.

anything out of Manchester to most local places is a well early finish which stops people from either going there or has to be a can back. As i said above these services could be request stops so it doesn't slow them too much.

Some years ago, many services out of Piccadilly were cut back so the last train departed just before the pubs closed. I wonder why?

 

[Clip]

Some years ago, many services out of Piccadilly were cut back so the last train departed just before the pubs closed. I wonder why?

for drunk people? And people are not going to be drunk just before the pubs close? Or if there's a sports event on?

i really hope you're not pedalling that as some sort of excuse for poor transport provision

 

[zaax]

The small scale stuff is the problem.

Its n't that the problem there shouldn't to be any small scale stuff. The railway should be built so no work is needed for 10 years, and then its closed for a month or so to make it fit to last another 10 years

 

[edwin_m]

Its n't that the problem there shouldn't to be any small scale stuff. The railway should be built so no work is needed for 10 years, and then its closed for a month or so to make it fit to last another 10 years

So you'd be comfortable riding on a line knowing that nobody had checked the tightness of the bolts that hold the track and points together for 9 years 11 months?

 

[DarloRich]

Its n't that the problem there shouldn't to be any small scale stuff. The railway should be built so no work is needed for 10 years, and then its closed for a month or so to make it fit to last another 10 years

I am not sure you understand the point. @edwin_m is more patient at explaining it than i am and i am indebted to the honorable member for Nottingham for his input.

 

[rebmcr]

So you'd be comfortable riding on a line knowing that nobody had checked the tightness of the bolts that hold the track and points together for 9 years 11 months?

Wimbledon, then?

 

[Clip]

So you'd be comfortable riding on a line knowing that nobody had checked the tightness of the bolts that hold the track and points together for 9 years 11 months?

That's a poor example as that can be done during the day he'll when I was 20 doing trackwork we even changed sleepers during the day too including on the throat to Leicester station

 

[Domh245]

That's a poor example as that can be done during the day he'll when I was 20 doing trackwork we even changed sleepers during the day too including on the throat to Leicester station

I'm guessing you were 20 a few years ago! Changing sleepers during the day wouldn't happen at all today unless it was as part of a blockade

 

[Clip]

I'm guessing you were 20 a few years ago! Changing sleepers during the day wouldn't happen at all today unless it was as part of a blockade

it was indeed but track inspections for loose nuts and bolts can always be done during the day

 

[gazzaa2]

I'd rather the trains just ran a bit later, particularly on a Saturday when the services stop early at about 8 or 9 o'clock.

If the Euston services for example ran for an extra couple of hours itd be handy and also.alleviate congestion. I've been stranded a couple of times because I've missed the last train and it's only 9pm

 

[transmanche]

Does the GWR Thames Valley and TPE really count as night services when they're so sporadic and infrequent? The only TOC who I know operate an actual night service is ThamesLink doing the 2tph from Bedford to Three Bridges daily and the London Overground from Highbury to New Cross Gate.

On the GWR Thames Valley services, the longest gap in service is the two hours between about 01:30 and 03:30. And overnight suburban services used to be more plentiful: ISTR that LRT included overnight BR services in its Night Bus booklet back in the late 80s/early 90s. And IIRC it featured pretty much hourly services on the Great Northern routes, services from Liverpool Street as well as those from Paddington.

Looking further afield to, say, Newcastle. The last northbound train shuffles off to Heaton depot around 02:15-02:30, whilst the first southbound arrives from the depot at 03:45. So whilst not offering a '24-hour service', the station is in use for nearly all of those 24 hours. (And it's only a few years since there was a TPE service to/from Manchester Airport to fill that gap.)

 

[edwin_m]

I'm guessing you were 20 a few years ago! Changing sleepers during the day wouldn't happen at all today unless it was as part of a blockade

And the frequency of passenger trains through Leicester has probably at least doubled in that period.

 

[Domh245]

it was indeed but track inspections for loose nuts and bolts can always be done during the day

Don't they do that anyway, or are those groups of track workers you see nowadays doing other things? And it depends on the line of course, you'd be hard pressed to do anything useful in the Thameslink core during the day.

 

[yorksrob]

Don't they do that anyway, or are those groups of track workers you see nowadays doing other things? And it depends on the line of course, you'd be hard pressed to do anything useful in the Thameslink core during the day.

I've seen them wandering along the tracks kicking bolts etc on many a Sunday.

 

[Clip]

Don't they do that anyway, or are those groups of track workers you see nowadays doing other things? And it depends on the line of course, you'd be hard pressed to do anything useful in the Thameslink core during the day.

I believe they do but please view the person I quoted as to what I was getting at when I said this please as it makes more sense

 

[carriageline]

Depends on the layouts.

I know the Eastern side of London Bridge shuts half the layout each weekday overnight for track patrols/maintenance. Leaving the other half open and ‘available’

And with a few diverting routes available, a heavily padded timetable could work using various routes depending on what is closed.

But as you get down towards the Kent Coast/Medway/Maidstone, you get into the realms of 2 track railway which nearly always is shut on both lines for the above.

Single line working could work, but man power is the key here. And man power = costs. Could the additional paths ‘pay’ for that? I’m not sure.