I see a glimmer of hope! I agree with the highlighted section! So how come in para 2 it's the unios/workers that have the immature attitude? What if it is NR that won;t concede points? How do you know its not? Please share any additional info you have! Yet again your post reveals that you are totally against one side, without being in possession of any facts.
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Network Rail Signallers: Strike Action
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I see a glimmer of hope! I agree with the highlighted section! So how come in para 2 it's the unios/workers that have the immature attitude? What if it is NR that won;t concede points? How do you know its not? Please share any additional info you have! Yet again your post reveals that you are totally against one side, without being in possession of any facts.
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Hampshire Unit
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I have just found this on the National Rail site.
Train Company Level of Service
East Midlands Trains A normal daytime service is expected to run on trains between Sheffield, Derby, Nottingham, Leicester and London St. Pancras. A reduced service will operate on all other routes and full details will be provided as soon as possible
Eurostar A normal service is expected to run to and from London St Pancras International
South West Trains A reduced service for part of the day is expected to run on the following routes to and from London Waterloo:
Salisbury
Bournemouth
Basingstoke
Windsor and Eton Riverside
Ascot via Richmond
Hampton Court
Teddington via Richmond
Strawberry Hill via Wimbledon
As for Captin Speaking please don't rise to it. He is either here for the enjoyment of an Argument or has come from the victorian age and really does belive that people are not entitled to rights. Maybe I can borrow a 5 year old to send up my chimney just for cleaning purposes of course.
Train Company Level of Service
East Midlands Trains A normal daytime service is expected to run on trains between Sheffield, Derby, Nottingham, Leicester and London St. Pancras. A reduced service will operate on all other routes and full details will be provided as soon as possible
Eurostar A normal service is expected to run to and from London St Pancras International
South West Trains A reduced service for part of the day is expected to run on the following routes to and from London Waterloo:
Salisbury
Bournemouth
Basingstoke
Windsor and Eton Riverside
Ascot via Richmond
Hampton Court
Teddington via Richmond
Strawberry Hill via Wimbledon
As for Captin Speaking please don't rise to it. He is either here for the enjoyment of an Argument or has come from the victorian age and really does belive that people are not entitled to rights. Maybe I can borrow a 5 year old to send up my chimney just for cleaning purposes of course.
Why would you call those pilots bad names for simply trying to remain employed? They have worked their whatsits off to get a flghtcrew job with BA. Why should some cabin crew, overpaid and underworked by the standards of the rest of the industry (yes, they are!) who are stiking to resist moves to bring them more in line with the rest of the industry (something that has to happen if BA is to remain competitive - i.e remain in business), drag those pilots into the dole queue with them?
The pilots know what will happen if the customers walk. The cabin crew seem to be turkeys voting for christmas! But it's not only them who'll end up chopped!
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Greenback, you are trying to coax me into taking sides in the dispute. I will not do that. Both sides of course have to be flexible - that's what negotiation is about.
If managers fail to resolve a dispute, the company will grind to a halt. The customers will go elswhere. Everyone loses their job as the company goes bust. That isn't in the best interest of the managers, so they are unlikely to be inflexible in dispute resolution (so Willy Walsh is unlikely to be being a nasty bully at BA).
Of course, if your customers are captive then the normal rules can be abused by both sides being inflexible. Ultimately, I guess only binding arbitration will sort that. One would hope that both side would want to avoid that, though.
But my over-riding point is that whatever happens, hitting your customers (strikes!) should never be seen anything but dispicable.
Hampshire unit - with rights come responsibilities. Instead of bad-mouthing me as some victorian slave driver instead of the realist I am, you could try advancing some logical argument that supports your view.
There seems to be a lot of old BR 'stuff the customer' attitudes on here. That's sad. I thought we had left that behind with the privatised railway. But hey, NR isn't privatised, is it?
The 'customer service' ethic seems sadly lacking. Maybe NR should be privatised?
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I don't really know how you can say that you will not take sides! You already have! As GB has asked, what would you recommend that the employees do rather than strike? Your analysis of the BA dispute relies on the assumption that senior managers like Willie Walsh cannot be bullies as they will lost their jobs when the company goes bust as a result of the strikes. I would have thought that Willie Walsh would walk into another highly paid executive job without too much problem - even CEO's who don;t have a good record of achievement seem to have few problems getting re-employed. And how does this reasoning tally with Ian McGregor? He was brought in to close down large parts of the steel industry, then the coal industry. He wasn't concerned about effectively abolishing his own position!
It's these types of assumptions that I am challenging! It's a bit naive to say that managers will not provoke a strike because they don't want to damage their business, but the unions will, they don't care what happens, so they must be wrong!
Ultimately no one outside the negotiators can really know what the sticking points are. It may be the intransigence of the RMT/TSSA, it may be NR. All I would say is that TSSA do not normally even ballot for industrial action of any kind unless it is a last resort, but people are not looking at that and trotting out the dinsoaur 1970's cliches about the RMT!
Hampshire Unit
Member
Yes of course with rights come responsibilities but is a Signallers top responsibility not Safety?? Not just of work colleges but also the Safety of the travelling public. Signallers DO NOT WANT TO STRIKE but if Network Rail are not willing to negotiate what other option is there other then risk the safety of people like yourself.
If a pilot comments that his plane is unsafe would you fly on it ???????
Captain Speaking has been asked several times what other options there are to striking, but has not provided any!
As for logical argument, the only one s/he advances is that striking punishes the customer and it's a disgrace. Oh, and they aren't interested in what the dispute is about, but managers can't be bullies because they only want to protect the interests of the company whereas the nasty old unions only want to protect their own interests at everyone else's expense- hang on, I've seen the light, the Captain is M Thatcher!
As for logical argument, the only one s/he advances is that striking punishes the customer and it's a disgrace. Oh, and they aren't interested in what the dispute is about, but managers can't be bullies because they only want to protect the interests of the company whereas the nasty old unions only want to protect their own interests at everyone else's expense- hang on, I've seen the light, the Captain is M Thatcher!
Greenback - Do you think it's OK to hit captive customers by withdrawing a vital public service as a weapon to force settlement of a dispute?
If you do, and all I've said all along is that I don't, then we'll have to agree to disagree.
I have not taken any side in the dispute itself. I have not even mentioned the issues that need to be resolved. I simply despise a strike against customers who have no alternative service to turn to.
If you do, and all I've said all along is that I don't, then we'll have to agree to disagree.
I have not taken any side in the dispute itself. I have not even mentioned the issues that need to be resolved. I simply despise a strike against customers who have no alternative service to turn to.
Hampshire Unit
Member
Alternatives then please ???????
Is a safe Railway not important to yourself or are you happy to take Risks as long as the travelling public might get there ???????
I believe that industrial action a valid tool to use as a last resort, as do the TSSA. It's unknown for the TSSA to strike, I doubt they would do this unless they believe all other avenues have been exhausted. They are well known as being a white collar, very moderate organisation. I don't know what other action the employees of an organisation can take when they are unhappy with proposals that managers have tried to enforce on them. If the rail industyr is a vital public service, why is it not run as a vital public service?
I can't see how you can continue to say you haven;t taken sides when your posts are filled with rhetoric revealing your dislike of strikes, personal attacks on a union leader, assumptions as to the motives of those who may be taking action, and a complete acceptance that managers must be blameless!
If management will not negotiate, please, please, please let us all know what else unions can do rather than call for industrial action!
Industrial Relations is all a bit of a game, with a lot of brinkmanship along the way. Are you saying that you are against the right to strike, and would make it illegal?
CarterUSM
Established Member
I do not know what the captain wants. I just cannot work it out. Apart from not wanting the strikes to go ahead and not providing any recourse to any other reasonable and genuine possibilities.
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theblackwatch
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Keep this thread civil folks - I have had to delete a post and issue a warning after one poster called another retarded. A remider of Rule 1a: Do not flame or abuse other individuals
Why do I have to keep repeating myself?
Go back a couple of posts.
What bit of that didn't you understand?
313103
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What is the point of reasoning with the captain, he has already made up his mind and no matter what i or others say it isnt going to change it!
As for the comment itself, is it ok for someone to be disingenuous towards me and others but im not not allowed to retort.
the sniper
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I don't understand why people are getting so wound up by Captain Speaking, he's obviously just winding everyone up deliberately. Network Rail could suspend all maintenance for 3 months as a great cost saving exercise, leaving a perilous safety situation, yet Captain Speaking would probably still advocate all staff just 'getting on with it'...
I'm no expert, but from what I've understood of the changes that Network Rail want to make, the changes to procession protection does sound dangerous for track crews, at least. Of course, Captain Speaking thinks that these maintenance crews are just disposable lemmings who should put up and shut up. Hopefully he'll be on the train that runs into a procession and ends up derailing and killing some of his fellow passengers, then maybe he'll regret not caring about the signallers argument. :roll:
I'm no expert, but from what I've understood of the changes that Network Rail want to make, the changes to procession protection does sound dangerous for track crews, at least. Of course, Captain Speaking thinks that these maintenance crews are just disposable lemmings who should put up and shut up. Hopefully he'll be on the train that runs into a procession and ends up derailing and killing some of his fellow passengers, then maybe he'll regret not caring about the signallers argument. :roll:
CarterUSM
Established Member
I never get wound up, i'm fair enjoying the banter. it's just that no CLEAR explanation has been forthcoming from captain. He keeps talking about American IT companies and British Airways. Not to mention Ronald Reagan! Pure gold! B-)
it's just that no CLEAR explanation has been forthcoming from captain. He keeps talking about American IT companies and British Airways. Not to mention Ronald Reagan! Pure gold! B-)I enjoy having a good discussion, I try not to get wound up or personal and just persuade people with argument and facts. If Captain Speaking or anyone else feels that strikes should be outlawed, they are entitled to that opinion, and to express it! What irks me slightly is that s/he insists that they are neutral, when they clearly have preconceived ideas, even if they don't realise it!
merlodlliw
Established Member
On Radio 4 today, I overheard the past Chair of the ORR say " The ORR had no right in publishing the original NR letter to them" without also publishing the RMT letter, which they did not" it was all to do with safety being taken out of context, HM Govt is not happy with the ORR releasing confidential letters.so said Lord Adonis,
I am sure its on the I Player, 1.00p.m. news prog
I am sure its on the I Player, 1.00p.m. news prog
The very sensible and politically central Vince Cable has just said on Radio 4's 'Any Questions' of the BA and threatened NR strikes:
"These are both uneccessary and unreasonable strikes and they should not take place".
Words of wisdom, as ever, from a man who knows what he's talking about.
Greenback - I am neutral on the issues, I am not neutral on strike action. I think that's about 300 times I've posted that now!
CarterUSM - Just what do you want from me? What can I add that I haven't already posted? Before you answer, please read my posts - whatever you want, you'll find it there. In brief:
1) Striking is dispicable and the act of the spoilt brat or the 1970s dinosaur. Do NOT hit your customers by using them as a lever to sort out YOUR problems.
2) I have not and will not come down on either side on the issues causing the disagreement in NR.
3) If in the last resort NR managers and staff cannot compromise on a settlement, then they should accept binding arbitration to settle the dispute. Of course, the goverment may well then take the view that NR as an organisation is a failure, and needs to be restructured - perhaps privatised?
"These are both uneccessary and unreasonable strikes and they should not take place".
Words of wisdom, as ever, from a man who knows what he's talking about.
Greenback - I am neutral on the issues, I am not neutral on strike action. I think that's about 300 times I've posted that now!
CarterUSM - Just what do you want from me? What can I add that I haven't already posted? Before you answer, please read my posts - whatever you want, you'll find it there. In brief:
1) Striking is dispicable and the act of the spoilt brat or the 1970s dinosaur. Do NOT hit your customers by using them as a lever to sort out YOUR problems.
2) I have not and will not come down on either side on the issues causing the disagreement in NR.
3) If in the last resort NR managers and staff cannot compromise on a settlement, then they should accept binding arbitration to settle the dispute. Of course, the goverment may well then take the view that NR as an organisation is a failure, and needs to be restructured - perhaps privatised?
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He simply siad the strikes were unreasonable and should not happen. Since the NR one has not yet happened, presumably he was saying to the rail unions 'don't do it', and to Unite 'stop doing it'.
You can make of that what you will. But it doesn't sound to me, by any stretch of the imagination, that he in any way thought either strike should take place.
You have edited your post to include more emotive language. Shuld I conclude that you are, as has been suggested, deliberately winding people up? I'm a nice person, and I prefer to think that your views are sincere, although misguided in my opinion, but I am starting ot have doubts. Why else would you insult union members in this way by calling them spoilt brats and dinosaurs? There has already been a warning to keep things civil.
royaloak
Established Member
Or Vince could have been telling NR to stop being such egotistic arrogant twits and work towards a solution, or stick to AGREEMENTS, but then it must be the nasty unions fault eh Captain!
royaloak
Established Member
Wont get a reply from the Craptain now as his mummy puts him to bed at 9 o'clock!
Still hasnt answered any of my questions from last night, surprise surprise!
Still hasnt answered any of my questions from last night, surprise surprise!
313103
Established Member
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i noticed that captain speaking has not once mentioned the Jarvis fiasco in which up to 1500 jobs will be lost, no doubt he will say its the unions fault for not supporting them and nothing to do with the company management.
ungreat
Member
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"Captain Speaking has not made any friends yet "
His profile speaks for itself......
His profile speaks for itself......
But Greenback, I didn't insult union members or anyone else. I expressed an opinion about strikers as a generic observation. Not at all the same thing.
I have been entirely consistant in my posts. I have insulted nobody, despite others not offering me the same courtesy, which the mods have picked up on, for which I thank them.
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I can't speak for Vince. But apparently, you can.
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Can't you read, Roak? Look back at my million or so posts on this. What exactly do you want from me that I have not already stated? My inside leg measurement! (it's 31, by the way). But has your mummy put you to bed already? Crikey, it's only 2am! What a wuss!
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Would you also like my views on Princess Di, capital punishment, speed cameras, fuel prices, dog dirt, religion, the NHS, the media, gun crime, immigration, bankers, Top gear, motorbikes, real ale, chain hotels, cats, housing estates, gramophones, and telephone boxes?
I can entertain you for hours on these and many more subjects. But what's that got to do with the price of fish?
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I knew there was something missing from my life. a great shaft of light has shone down from the heavens on reading your post.
Oh, thank you ungreat. Friends.... Wow, that must be fun! :roll:
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Now, has anyone got anything sensible to say about this proposped dispute? I really would like to hear some constructive and informed argument, for or against.
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the sniper
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Hasn't it all been said now, for the time being at least? You'd be totally against a strike even if it was a matter of life or death for railway employees and/or passengers. You don't appear to bothered about why they're striking, so what else is there to say?
Aboslutely. CS is in complete denial and has failed to answer or respond to many of the constructive points that have been raised. S/he fails to see that calling a group of people despicable, selfish, 1970's dinosaurs is an insult. He claims it is just an opinion, and therefore quite justifiable to use such words. Well, my opinion is that people who use such terms to debate issues are despicable, narrow minded and 1980's dinosaurs. Is that constructive and informed argument? I think not! The whole basis of the CS argument is 'I won't be able to catch my train, therefore, for daring to inconvenience me all strikers are despicable'.
Of course, we still haven't had an answer about what employees should do, except the usual waffle about binding arbitration. News flash: we do not have that system in the real world. Come out of sleepy hollow Captain, where managers are all perfect, and tell us what should be done in the system we have got, until that wonderful new world comes into play...
As I have decided CS is deliberately inflaming people by their choice of words, I shall now be ignoring them. This is a shame as they might have something interesting to say on other topics, but I am not going to waste any more valuable time trying to show them that the world is not as black and white as they would like to believe.
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