New Brighton Mainline???

[03_179]

Not sure this has been seen:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-33779012

Meanwhile, Chancellor George Osborne has said he is committed to a full study into building a second main line from Brighton to London (BML2).
The government has already said it will provide £100,000 for a new study into the reopening of the Lewes to Uckfield line in East Sussex.
In a letter to Conservative MP for Lewes Maria Caufield, Mr Osborne said he had extended the Lewes to Uckfield study, which would now also look at improving links between London and the south coast, including a feasibility study on BML2.

Interesting ... probably no better as it'll get overcrowded at East Croydon area.

 

[bengley]

Not sure this has been seen:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-33779012



Interesting ... probably no better as it'll get overcrowded at East Croydon area.

It wouldn't go via East Croydon - the idea is that it will take a completely different route to the current BML I believe.

I think the plan is for a new Gateway station in Croydon

 

[swt_passenger]

It comes up every few months, last time in July: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=118024&highlight=BML2

...there's nothing new here as far as I can see. Just padding out a topical story by repeating something they already knew about...

 

[03_179]

It wouldn't go via East Croydon - the idea is that it will take a completely different route to the current BML I believe.

I think the plan is for a new Gateway station in Croydon

God knows where?

Croydon is quite a built up area only area that would be possible would be the old Croydon Airport but that has a lot of football pitches there and they are very well patronised.

I cannot think of an area to the East of Croydon that would be used either.

 

[185]

'New' Brighton Mainline.

aah, not 'New Brighton' Mainline.

Was hopeful for a high speed station at Wallasey Village, but hey ho.

 

[swt_passenger]

'New' Brighton Mainline.

aah, not 'New Brighton' Mainline.

Was hopeful for a high speed station at Wallasey Village, but hey ho.

From previous discussions I would give your plan better odds...

 

[misterredmist]

There will be a dedicated Tunnel from Gatwick to Victoria ........

 

[talldave]

There will be a dedicated Tunnel from Gatwick to Victoria ........

With Southern introducing a new restriction of "NOT SUBTERRANEAN"

 

[RichardN]

And £100k gets you basically nothing in the scheme of things.

 

[theageofthetra]

Ok this may firmly be in the 'wibble' category but how do the costs per mile of tunnelling using the most modern methods compare to buying land, planning inquiries, compensation etc for an overground line in a densely populated areas?

 

[yorksrob]

I hope this study looks at all options, including a more simple reopening of the route through to Lewes, otherwise I can see this ending up as as a case of "we can't spend billions tunnelling under London, therefore we're not going to do anything".

 

[bangor-toad]

Ok this may firmly be in the 'wibble' category but how do the costs per mile of tunnelling using the most modern methods compare to buying land, planning inquiries, compensation etc for an overground line in a densely populated areas?

Hi there,
I don't know the exact figures but there's an interesting parallel with the HS2 plans.

The original plans were for a surface alignment from near Old Oak Common to near Northolt. This would have uses the existing alignment but upgraded it. It was discovered that it was going to be cheaper to build a 9km long tunnel under that same route.

I've no idea how that would transfer into other routes but it's an interesting comparison.

Cheers,
Mr Toad.

 

[swt_passenger]

Hi there,
I don't know the exact figures but there's an interesting parallel with the HS2 plans.

The original plans were for a surface alignment from near Old Oak Common to near Northolt. This would have uses the existing alignment but upgraded it. It was discovered that it was going to be cheaper to build a 9km long tunnel under that same route.

I've no idea how that would transfer into other routes but it's an interesting comparison.

Cheers,
Mr Toad.

I expect the difficulty with a proposed tunnelled BML2 is how you provide the terminus access or capacity - the options are to come to the surface and access an existing station such as Victoria, (any room?) or stay underground and build a multi-track terminus (deeper than all the LU lines?) or stay underground and come up the other side, like a Crossrail. Which would cost Crossrail type sums...

Politically, how do you justify another Crossrail on a route that you've just supposedly fixed with Thameslink?

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

They were just talking about this on my local BBC Radio Station, who indicated that it seems to be using the existing route from London to Uckfield and then going on from there to Lewis & onto Brighton which has been much discussed before.

It could be useful, but a longer way around. (They were aslo talking about the new trains coming onto the Thameslink routes which sound great, more roomy and longer too.)

 

[AM9]

I wonder if this is laying a foundation for the forthcoming decision about a new runway. If the Government decide that Heathrow is politically too risky, Gatwick will be the obvious choice, - even Willie Walsh has suggested that Gatwick would be easier and didn't think that he would pay the extra for Heathrow expansion (on behalf of IAG of course).
If it is true, then the way northwards for BML2 would become part of a LHR-LGW link that would create transport hubs by both airports. The cost of HSR following the M25 therough Surrey wouldn't be cheap, but may be easier to justify than a conventional route and station in central London.

Just musing.

 

[Chris125]

I hope this study looks at all options, including a more simple reopening of the route through to Lewes, otherwise I can see this ending up as as a case of "we can't spend billions tunnelling under London, therefore we're not going to do anything".

I believe a previous study has shown there's no business case for simply reopening Lewes-Uckfield, and the obvious reason is that it doesn't produce a single extra seat into London.

What local demand exists for travel from destinations on the Uckfield line southwards will always struggle to justify reinstatement and is unlikely to make it a priority for investment - hence why the campaign for it's reinstatement seems to have morphed into one arguing for a multi-billion pound alternative mainline with a tunnel under London.

 

[STPBTN]

Another perspective on BML2:
http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/13524127.Hove_MP_accuses_Government_of_deceit_over_Brighton_Main_Line_2_promises/

 

[PHILIPE]

How long before somebody suggests should be operated by XC and worked by 442s !!!

 

[mr_jrt]

I expect the difficulty with a proposed tunnelled BML2 is how you provide the terminus access or capacity - the options are to come to the surface and access an existing station such as Victoria, (any room?) or stay underground and build a multi-track terminus (deeper than all the LU lines?) or stay underground and come up the other side, like a Crossrail. Which would cost Crossrail type sums...

Politically, how do you justify another Crossrail on a route that you've just supposedly fixed with Thameslink?

Run a tunnel via Lewisham, Canary Wharf, and Stratford to relieve London Bridge?

 

[Antman]

What happened to the idea of running it via a reinstated Selsdon to Elmers End line, with Tramlink kicked out onto the street, and then along the mid Kent line? The idea sounded ridiculous to me but even so..........it was being talked about seriously!

 

[NotATrainspott]

Hi there,
I don't know the exact figures but there's an interesting parallel with the HS2 plans.

The original plans were for a surface alignment from near Old Oak Common to near Northolt. This would have uses the existing alignment but upgraded it. It was discovered that it was going to be cheaper to build a 9km long tunnel under that same route.

I've no idea how that would transfer into other routes but it's an interesting comparison.

Cheers,
Mr Toad.

It's when you then consider that the alignment HS2 was going to take over is wide and sees only a Parliamentary service that this becomes even more interesting. If the sums don't work out for building a surface route (which was going to be limited to something like 250km/h, I seem to recall) in basically perfect conditions, that does suggest the tunnel option isn't as far-fetched as some people might think at all. The cost of a tunnel would be significantly reduced if it doesn't have any intermediate stations at all, running direct from a portal near its London terminus (or terminuses) all the way to Gatwick Airport. Since there is very little tunnelling in south London, there wouldn't be many obstacles in the way of a normal TBM drive.

 

[steamybrian]

What happened to the idea of running it via a reinstated Selsdon to Elmers End line, with Tramlink kicked out onto the street, and then along the mid Kent line? The idea sounded ridiculous to me but even so..........it was being talked about seriously!

It is ridiculous to me.
The cost of ripping up Croydon Tramlink and relaying it somewhere where there is little or no road traffic in the Croydon area would be a planners nightmare.
Trying to path "fast" trains along the Mid Kent Line then through the Lewisham area would be a farce.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I believe a previous study has shown there's no business case for simply reopening Lewes-Uckfield, and the obvious reason is that it doesn't produce a single extra seat into London.

What local demand exists for travel from destinations on the Uckfield line southwards will always struggle to justify reinstatement and is unlikely to make it a priority for investment - hence why the campaign for it's reinstatement seems to have morphed into one arguing for a multi-billion pound alternative mainline with a tunnel under London.

The provision of seats into London is not only the only consideration. At Uckfield it was stated that more passengers travelled southwards to or via Lewes than northwards.
Road traffic congestion around Lewes and Brighton is becoming a farce. A rail journey time of approx. 30 minutes Uckfield-Lewes- Brighton would be an attraction to motorists who at present can spend 30 minutes just travelling the last mile or two into Brighton. I have used the no. 29 bus Tunbridge Wells to Brighton which frequently loses time due to traffic congestion.

 

[southern442]

[RANT] I think that the obvious solution to overcrowding in the Croydon area is to build extra platforms at East Croydon. Why was this not done??? Instead what Croydon is getting is some sort of new square thingy that people will think is ok for a few minutes and then they will get bored of it. Here's an idea, instead of building loads of really expensive offices and flats that no one will live in because no one will be able to affod to live in them, WHY NOT JUST BUILD 3 MORE PLATFORMS AT THE STATION?? There's your Brighton Mainline overcrowding problem sorted!! ECR is so overcrowded because it has a very intensive service. At certain points during the day there are 3 minute headways on some of the platforms, which means that one tiny delay can (and VERY often (AKA every single day pretty much) does) cause a ripple effect for many of the lines out of Croydon. With more platforms, the load is spread out much more evenly,with fewer people on each platform, and a less intensive service on each platform. If the 16:04 to Caterham is delayed by 3 minutes, then the 16:08 Tattenham Corner train will be delayed by 3 minutes, and the 16:11 will also be delayed, and the 16:14 after that too, because they all use platform 6. This happens a lot, and it means that all the people waiting for said trains are all crammed onto the same platform, and then when they get delayed, more people for later services will join in the crush too. With more plaforms, the 16:08 and 16:14 could go to another platform, and only one train will be delayed. This is also a lot cheaper than building these 'tunnels' on the BML2. You could extend the Uckfield line to Lewes and have trains run to Brighton that way, and still have the trains run through Croydon fine. Has no one considered this? [/RANT]

 

[steamybrian]

[RANT] I think that the obvious solution to overcrowding in the Croydon area is to build extra platforms at East Croydon. , WHY NOT JUST BUILD 3 MORE PLATFORMS AT THE STATION?? .... [/RANT]

Space has been provided on the west side of the station (former goods yard site) to allow for the construction of at least 2 new platforms. A clue is the new footbridge has an extra span at the western end.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

They were just talking about this on my local BBC Radio Station, who indicated that it seems to be using the existing route from London to Uckfield and then going on from there to Lewis & onto Brighton which has been much discussed before.

It could be useful, but a longer way around. (They were aslo talking about the new trains coming onto the Thameslink routes which sound great, more roomy and longer too.)

Very much so! [/pedantry]

 

[yorksrob]

I believe a previous study has shown there's no business case for simply reopening Lewes-Uckfield, and the obvious reason is that it doesn't produce a single extra seat into London.

What local demand exists for travel from destinations on the Uckfield line southwards will always struggle to justify reinstatement and is unlikely to make it a priority for investment - hence why the campaign for it's reinstatement seems to have morphed into one arguing for a multi-billion pound alternative mainline with a tunnel under London.

As I understand it, traffic on the existing section has grown substantially since the 2008 study (which found that a single track railway would cover its own operating costs) so the assumptions upon which that study was based will be massively out of date.

 

[steamybrian]

Very much so! [/pedantry]

When the main line is blocked between Lewes and Three Bridges due to an incident or (frequent) engineering works a fast train using this new "BML2 route" from Lewes, Uckfield and Oxted would beat a substitute bus service from Lewes to Three Bridges then connection into a train.
Finally the passenger numbers on the Uckfield is rapidly increasing at around 10% per year.

 

[TheWalrus]

This may seem crazy but would it be possible to have a tunnel and new line to avoid Croydon rejoining the current BML somewhere before Gatwick?

 

[Stats]

[RANT] I think that the obvious solution to overcrowding in the Croydon area is to build extra platforms at East Croydon. Why was this not done??? Instead what Croydon is getting is some sort of new square thingy that people will think is ok for a few minutes and then they will get bored of it. .... [/RANT]

I take it you didn't read the Sussex Route Study draft for Consultation document then?

5.5.3 Conclusions, BML fast line services priorities for CP6:
From each of the options assessed there is a set of common works
that in all scenarios would be required:
These comprise:
1. London Victoria approach alterations
2. Windmill Bridge Jn grade separations and sixth track between
Windmill Bridge Jn and East Croydon
3. East Croydon additional platforms
4. Coulsdon flyover
5. Gatwick switch and crossing alterations
6. Haywards Heath switch and crossing alterations

I still don't understand why the government has commissioned this study when it duplicates the Network Rail Route Study work?

 

[Chris125]

Road traffic congestion around Lewes and Brighton is becoming a farce. A rail journey time of approx. 30 minutes Uckfield-Lewes- Brighton would be an attraction to motorists who at present can spend 30 minutes just travelling the last mile or two into Brighton. I have used the no. 29 bus Tunbridge Wells to Brighton which frequently loses time due to traffic congestion.

It's not whether the scheme would benefit people, but how many people and to what degree? I find it very hard to believe this could be justified purely on the basis of local travel.

I think that the obvious solution to overcrowding in the Croydon area is to build extra platforms at East Croydon. Why was this not done???

Windmill Bridge Junction north of East Croydon needs remodelling to make a meaningful difference to capacity, and that is expected to include alterations and expansion of East Croydon - a recent London Reconnections article should help explain Network Rail's current thinking: A Study In Sussex Part 7: East Croydon

IIRC they hope to get this funded in the next control period, 2019-24.

As I understand it, traffic on the existing section has grown substantially since the 2008 study (which found that a single track railway would cover its own operating costs) so the assumptions upon which that study was based will be massively out of date.

I might be mistaken, but I was under the impression that much of this growth has come from London commuters railheading from further afield to take advantage of the improved services and cheaper season tickets - I'm not convinced this would benefit the business case, and with less spare capacity for London traffic it may make it worse.