New South Western franchise: Awarded to First/MTR

[Peter Mugridge]

That's an interesting piece of work. It's unfortunate that First/MTR haven't been specific about how they will achieve the extra seats. You've calculated 11,580 extra seats. They've said "52,000 extra seats across the morning and evening peaks" (I'm quoting from how you've put in in your post). If "across" means both in and out, morning and evening, you've identified how over 46,000 seats might be found. The rest might come from the internal layout of the Aventras and the extra passenger space from not having intermediate cabs - they'd save four intermediate cabs on 10 cars of 455/456. As you say, we'll find out more, gradually, I expect, after they take over.

Plus... some of the units will be making more than one run in or out during each peak; already some of the shorter distance terminating workings like Epsom dash back ecs to Waterloo to operate a second outgoing peak working. Units on Hampton Court services also have enough time to run two services each evening peak as well.

That will add to the numbers.

 

[The Ham]

There are some trains that aren't full length heading in the direction of peak flow, there are at least 2 services which arrive into London which are 5 coach trains. As such there is scope to add some more seats to those services.

Also, there's the issue of contraflow trains which can still be busy and significant numbers of them aren't full length.

If we assume that every "new" 442 gains us 350 seats and 15 of them enter and leave London in both the morning and evening peaks that's an extra 21,000 seats over the peaks. (Mostly lengthening existing trains with maybe a few extra services towards the edges of the peaks).

Likewise an extra 12 seats on the 444's over 25 units in and or of London once in both peaks is an extra 1,200 seats.

Also with a few extra early morning services arriving into London or departing London just at the start of the peak period, that could add quite a few more seats.

Based on the above, I'm not sure that we need to remove the guard offices to get to the required numbers.

 

[GodAtum]

That's exactly what they do. There have been a number of SWT press releases over recent years explaining how such and such a service will be changed from one type of Desiro to the other to increase capacity, basically along these lines:

Min 4.450 > 5.444 > 8.450 > 10.444 > 12.450 Max

Which would be in accordance with the franchise agreement , noted the other week coming back from Portsmouth around 1600 , a 444 , how busy the train was from Guildord , virtually 100% loading - and a bonus - one of those odd workings that skips Woking and goes via the New Line. "Reverse" commuting clearly.

I think the 1800 from Guildford to Waterloo is still a 5 car 444, always 100% loading!

 

[molecrochip]

Its been suggested by a couple of guards recently that you can get 8 seats around two tables next to the cabs on a 450. If so, doing that at each end would replace 16 standard class seats with 16 first class seats.

You can then replace the 24 first class, 4 standard seats and guards office with 42 standard class seats.

 

[Wolfie]

Ho hum... let the fun and games commence...


Evening Standard tonight:
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/tran...d-they-could-face-strike-misery-a3587701.html

"Strikes over driver-only train operation could spread to busy routes to and from Waterloo station, union leaders have warned.

Union fears over DOO (driver-only operation) escalated when it was revealed a £210 million fleet of new trains – the first operating on the Windsor line next month – are fitted with DOO equipment.

Senior sources at Stagecoach, current SWT operators, believe they were “marked down” by government during efforts to retain the franchise because they refused to give a commitment not to use DOO – all their services currently have a guard.

RMT leaders have been meeting with First MTR over the DOO issue. The union today expressed its “anger and frustration” over what it said was the lack of any guarantee from the company.

In a clear threat it would copy the strikes currently causing mayhem across neighbouring Southern Railways the union said it would “consider the use of all options” at its disposal.

Union demands to First MTR include no extension of DOO on any route or service; the guard to be in full operational control of the power operated doors and no “abolishing or reduction in the safety critical role of the guard.”

The hard-line union response came after it said it received a letter from First MTR stating; “At this stage, we are not committed to any one way of operation... Regarding other roles, our plans involve increases in front line staffing in certain areas to improve our customers’ experiences.

“We will share these plans after 20 August when the new franchise commences.”"

 

[molecrochip]

I wholly support guards on trains with their current role but frankly this is unbelievable by the RMT. First MTR have said, very publically...

Will you be introducing DOO/DCO?

Our bid proposals do not rely on driver controlled operation, and it was not mandated in the invitation to tender. Any changes we might make would be subject to consultation in the normal way, as you would expect.

When a company has said that it does not need to change but that any proposal to change the role of drivers/guards would be subject to consultation why is this not enough? If First MTR put out a proposal to change then strike but not now.

To strike, or even threaten to at the stage shows the contempt that the RMT have for the travelling public.

Safety is of the upmost importance but the public are getting fed up of the union approach to dealing with such matters.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Union fears over DOO (driver-only operation) escalated when it was revealed a £210 million fleet of new trains – the first operating on the Windsor line next month – are fitted with DOO equipment.

Isn't it now standard for all new stock to be equipped for DOO even if it's not used with DOO?

 

[The Ham]

Ho hum... let the fun and games commence...


Evening Standard tonight:
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/tran...d-they-could-face-strike-misery-a3587701.html

"Strikes over driver-only train operation could spread to busy routes to and from Waterloo station, union leaders have warned.

Union fears over DOO (driver-only operation) escalated when it was revealed a £210 million fleet of new trains – the first operating on the Windsor line next month – are fitted with DOO equipment.

Senior sources at Stagecoach, current SWT operators, believe they were “marked down” by government during efforts to retain the franchise because they refused to give a commitment not to use DOO – all their services currently have a guard.

RMT leaders have been meeting with First MTR over the DOO issue. The union today expressed its “anger and frustration” over what it said was the lack of any guarantee from the company.

In a clear threat it would copy the strikes currently causing mayhem across neighbouring Southern Railways the union said it would “consider the use of all options” at its disposal.

Union demands to First MTR include no extension of DOO on any route or service; the guard to be in full operational control of the power operated doors and no “abolishing or reduction in the safety critical role of the guard.”

The hard-line union response came after it said it received a letter from First MTR stating; “At this stage, we are not committed to any one way of operation... Regarding other roles, our plans involve increases in front line staffing in certain areas to improve our customers’ experiences.

“We will share these plans after 20 August when the new franchise commences.”"

Just because the trains are fitted with DOO doesn't mean that it would be used.

However, it could be a requirement of the rolling stock owner so that they can be cascaded to other lines that are DOO run at a later date if needed. There are significant numbers of services that are run by other operators that are DOO and to have it fitted from day one may not alter the cost but gives them a much bigger market later.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Just because the trains are fitted with DOO doesn't mean that it would be used.

However, it could be a requirement of the rolling stock owner so that they can be cascaded to other lines that are DOO run at a later date if needed. There are significant numbers of services that are run by other operators that are DOO and to have it fitted from day one may not alter the cost but gives them a much bigger market later.

Are we potentially going to get the RMT balloting for strike action whenever a TOC orders new stock, if all new stock has the functionality available for DOO?

 

[387star]

Has debranding work started?

 

[Wolfie]

I wholly support guards on trains with their current role but frankly this is unbelievable by the RMT. First MTR have said, very publically...

When a company has said that it does not need to change but that any proposal to change the role of drivers/guards would be subject to consultation why is this not enough? If First MTR put out a proposal to change then strike but not now.

To strike, or even threaten to at the stage shows the contempt that the RMT have for the travelling public.

Safety is of the upmost importance but the public are getting fed up of the union approach to dealing with such matters.

RMT do, of course, have 'previous' with both First (FGW/GWR) and MTR (London Overground) over the Guard issue..

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Has debranding work started?

Not yet, I don't think. Could be wrong.

 

[HH]

Just because the trains are fitted with DOO doesn't mean that it would be used.

True. But it doesn't mean, either, that they don't plan to introduce DCO (I use DCO, because it is control of door closing that is at the heart of RMT's disputes - any dispute concerning ASLEF is about other things).

My guess is that FM are being smart, and will tread correctly in keeping drivers onside. Not everyone is as inept as Govia/Charles Horton.

 

[Feathers44]

I wholly support guards on trains with their current role but frankly this is unbelievable by the RMT. First MTR have said, very publically...

When a company has said that it does not need to change but that any proposal to change the role of drivers/guards would be subject to consultation why is this not enough? If First MTR put out a proposal to change then strike but not now.

To strike, or even threaten to at the stage shows the contempt that the RMT have for the travelling public.

Safety is of the upmost importance but the public are getting fed up of the union approach to dealing with such matters.

That ^

This does feel like stirring things up based on the vapour of a rumour.

 

[HH]

That ^

This does feel like stirring things up based on the vapour of a rumour.

The railway is run on rumours (I think I said that).

Let me put it another way. FM would not have specified DOO cameras in the rolling stock if moving to driver control of the doors was not on their mind. If they really didn't want it I doubt whether they would have been forced to buy it - it simply doesn't make economic sense.

 

[Feathers44]

The railway is run on rumours (I think I said that).

Let me put it another way. FM would not have specified DOO cameras in the rolling stock if moving to driver control of the doors was not on their mind. If they really didn't want it I doubt whether they would have been forced to buy it - it simply doesn't make economic sense.

That's a fair point and one I can't argue with but the prospect of threatening strikes now because you might be asked to do something in the future feels like a step too far (and I speak as a (non-rail) union member). Is there more to this that I've missed?

 

[Goldfish62]

The railway is run on rumours (I think I said that).

Let me put it another way. FM would not have specified DOO cameras in the rolling stock if moving to driver control of the doors was not on their mind. If they really didn't want it I doubt whether they would have been forced to buy it - it simply doesn't make economic sense.

The franchise specification, which has long been in the public domain, required that all new rolling stock be DOO operation equipped, just like the SWT 707s in fact.

 

[HH]

The franchise specification, which has long been in the public domain, required that all new rolling stock be DOO operation equipped, just like the SWT 707s in fact.

Good point.

Of course this doesn't mean that there aren't any plans around door control. At the very least I would expect Driver Open, Guard Close, simply because it speeds things up.

 

[hwl]

Good point.

Of course this doesn't mean that there aren't any plans around door control. At the very least I would expect Driver Open, Guard Close, simply because it speeds things up.

Agreed on Metro routes as I'd be very surprised if the new Aventra stock didn't have SDO and CSDE (and the Windsor side already has the tracklink3 balises) which would make arguing against it much harder on safety grounds. Timing wise the earliest that would make sense would be after the departure of the 455s and 456s but waiting a bit for the all the Aventra so the change is easier makes sense too.
5 seconds per stop adds up nicely even if used to adsorb higher passenger numbers.

 

[infobleep]

Agreed on Metro routes as I'd be very surprised if the new Aventra stock didn't have SDO and CSDE (and the Windsor side already has the tracklink3 balises) which would make arguing against it much harder on safety grounds. Timing wise the earliest that would make sense would be after the departure of the 455s and 456s but waiting a bit for the all the Aventra so the change is easier makes sense too.
5 seconds per stop adds up nicely even if used to adsorb higher passenger numbers.

Well will the Aventura replace the use of 450s on the Woking to Waterloo route because I imagine the 450s add far more than 5 seconds of time when it comes to opening the doors.

 

[swt_passenger]

Well will the Aventura replace the use of 450s on the Woking to Waterloo route because I imagine the 450s add far more than 5 seconds of time when it comes to opening the doors.

I think you need to wait until after the 707s are in service - as we know the Aventras (without the U!) will replace all 458/5, 455, 456, and 707 operated routes. But I'd expect if any of the Woking - Waterloo services were still operated by 450s in the period after the Dec 2018 timetable change then they would stay 450 operated.

 

[Wolfie]

Did we ever find out if First/MTR will honour the SWT season ticket-holder free weekend tickets?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Did we ever find out if First/MTR will honour the SWT season ticket-holder free weekend tickets?

Exactly what my dad wants to know!

 

[HH]

I wouldn't put money on keeping any perk above the general level of Gold Cards.

 

[387star]

Does anyone think it's going to be a really strange day that stagecoach swt is no more. . Talk about the end of an era

I guess the whole desiro fleet will enter the refurbishment programme imminently or will there be a delay like tpe

442s from next year was it ? Saw some running empties on the bml last week

 

[infobleep]

Did we ever find out if First/MTR will honour the SWT season ticket-holder free weekend tickets?

I've not used my old ones up so I'll be disappointed if on the start if the new franchise they finally admit they won't accept them.

I suspect they will accept them though, if only for a limited time.

 

[Dougal2345]

Did we ever find out if First/MTR will honour the SWT season ticket-holder free weekend tickets?

There's a separate thread on this... Short answer seems to be 'yes' but with some ambiguity...

 

[greaterwest]

There was a Tweet the Manager session this evening. SWT themselves appear to be unsure whether they will be honoured when the new franchise starts;

https://twitter.com/TonyLea1954/status/887334162696478721

For those unable to see the tweet (during the TTM session)

I am afraid that is one for the new operators when they start on 20 August

Earlier on today, the normal twitter team replied that they will be valid after 20/08.

 

[TheManBehind]

There was a Tweet the Manager session this evening. SWT themselves appear to be unsure whether they will be honoured when the new franchise starts;

https://twitter.com/TonyLea1954/status/887334162696478721

For those unable to see the tweet (during the TTM session)



Earlier on today, the normal twitter team replied that they will be valid after 20/08.

Ones already issued will remain valid I believe; it is up to the incoming operator whether any new ones are issued.

 

[pompeyfan]

Taken from the firstMTR staff site

Goldcard holders currently receive complimentary tickets for use on SWT services – what happens to the validity of these after 19 August?

We’re currently looking into the full complimentary offering that Goldcard holders currently receive and we hope to be able to announce our proposition soon.

That's probably even less helpful!