New Street Hot Spare

[SovietGaz]

I was at New Street yesterday and saw that Cross Country keep a 220 on stand by in between platforms 5 & 6.

My question is that surely it must be a lot cheaper to leave the engine off and start it when needed? I don't know how long it takes to start a train but at least for the lungs of the commuters at New Street it could be left off. It was sickening for the 20 mins waited for our Chester train.

How often is the hot spare called in to use?

Also, on a side note, I visited Moor Street and what a revalation that place was!

 

[Rich McLean]

I was at New Street yesterday and saw that Cross Country keep a 220 on stand by in between platforms 5 & 6.

My question is that surely it must be a lot cheaper to leave the engine off and start it when needed? I don't know how long it takes to start a train but at least for the lungs of the commuters at New Street it could be left off. It was sickening for the 20 mins waited for our Chester train.

How often is the hot spare called in to use?

Also, on a side note, I visited Moor Street and what a revalation that place was!

I believe it is called into use daily, sometimes even more than twice, for strengthrning duties in the XC core during rush hour

 

[louis97]

I believe it is called into use daily, sometimes even more than twice, for strengthrning duties in the XC core during rush hour

The hot spare is not used for this purpose, it is diagrammed to sit at New Street all day and it is used almost daily - when services are restarted at New Street because of delays further up or down the line, this is possible because normally a service has a new driver and train manager from New Street, so can restart a service right time.

 

[455driver]

And when the delayed train gets to Birmingham NS it will become the hot spare.

If the engines are shut down then it can take up to 5 minutes to build up the air again.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Most of the times when I've been to New Street it has in fact been shut down but was started up for about 15 minutes or so every couple of hours.

Has the policy changed recently to keeping it running all the time then?

 

[O L Leigh]

No. A driver will be diagrammed to pop downstairs, put a key in and run it up from time to time so that it has a decent amount of air in the tanks and ready for use at short notice and then shut it down again. It's the same story with the spare Cl170. In any case, these units shut down automatically after a preset time has elapsed if there is no key in. To run them continuously would require them to be manned throughout the day.

You must have just been unlucky with when you were there and that it coincided with one of the periods when the unit was run. Alternatively it could have been run in preparation to form a service put hadn't yet been routed into a platform or out of the station.

O L Leigh

 

[the sniper]

What route do the units take to get from the middle roads to the platforms? Do they turn back in the tunnels using two drivers or run them out and back via the Soho loop? I know Virgin occasionally have a unit (390 or 221) in Monument Lane siding, but I don't think they turn back there from New Street?

 

[O L Leigh]

Shunting into the tunnels requires two drivers and is generally only done as a matter of last resort as it blocks the line. Normally a unit will go "around the houses" either via Soho or Camp Hill/Lifford, or it might simply go out to where the old Exchange Sidings used to be onto the Up & Down Camp Hill and come back in from there. This move is still referred to as going out to Exchange. Alternatively, depending on platforming, a unit can simply go through the lead and straight into the platform or back again.

I can't comment on what Virgin do with their units.

O L Leigh

 

[Crossover]

Am I right in thinking that when starting up a Voyager, checks involving walking round the unit have to be also done, which isn't always possible, or am I getting my wires crossed with something else?

Shunting into the tunnels requires two drivers and is generally only done as a matter of last resort as it blocks the line. Normally a unit will go "around the houses" either via Soho or Camp Hill/Lifford, or it might simply go out to where the old Exchange Sidings used to be onto the Up & Down Camp Hill and come back in from there. This move is still referred to as going out to Exchange. Alternatively, depending on platforming, a unit can simply go through the lead and straight into the platform or back again.

I can't comment on what Virgin do with their units.

O L Leigh

Would it need two drivers because having a driver swap ends would take too long and block up the approaches for a lengthy period of time, or is there some other reason behind it?

 

[O L Leigh]

Am I right in thinking that when starting up a Voyager, checks involving walking round the unit have to be also done, which isn't always possible, or am I getting my wires crossed with something else??

Don't sign them so I wouldn't know. I doubt it, though. You're not carrying out a prep as that would have been done on the depot before coming to New Street, simply mobilising the unit. If there was anything wrong that had happened in the interim I would imagine the TMS would warn you.

Would it need two drivers because having a driver swap ends would take too long and block up the approaches for a lengthy period of time, or is there some other reason behind it?

Basically, yes. The approaches to the station get congested at the best of times, so shunting into the tunnels with just a single driver would create havoc. We simply can't afford to do it. If one of the standby units needs to be platformed quickly it normally just comes in through the lead and straight into the platform.

O L Leigh

 

[Yew]

No. A driver will be diagrammed to pop downstairs, put a key in and run it up from time to time so that it has a decent amount of air in the tanks and ready for use at short notice and then shut it down again. It's the same story with the spare Cl170. In any case, these units shut down automatically after a preset time has elapsed if there is no key in. To run them continuously would require them to be manned throughout the day.

You must have just been unlucky with when you were there and that it coincided with one of the periods when the unit was run. Alternatively it could have been run in preparation to form a service put hadn't yet been routed into a platform or out of the station.

O L Leigh

Its a shame they couldnt just have a compressor hooked up to it, instead of running (or starting, causing wear on the engines)

 

[O L Leigh]

Might as well not run them in service either, then. Firing them up and allowing them to idle for a while to replenish the air and charge the batteries doesn't cause any harm.

O L Leigh

 

[AlexS]

Indeed - flat batteries being an issue on units that have been stabled for the weekend when you come to try and start them on Sunday afternoon/evening to get them back to where they want to be on Monday. Far more problematic than a bit of wear and tear from idling. Had a 170 unit stuck in our carriage sidings for days with flat batteries a few months back after being left for a day or two with a faulty engine, London Midland had to bring out some portable battery chargers to jump it back into life eventually.

Keep em juiced em, warm and happy

 

[Qwerty133]

Anyone else think that this is a waste of much-needed capacity on the xc network

 

[causton]

Anyone else think that this is a waste of much-needed capacity on the xc network

I don't - with a network as big as theirs surely they could do with one or two trains in a central location to help out during disruption?

 

[NSE]

They aren't going to win. They tag this unit on to an existing service, wahey extra 4/5 carriages. Another train fails at Derby, before this unit could have left BHM on time as the failed service and the days diagram complete. Now, unit is stuck at Derby and whole days diagram buggered.

Damned if they do, Damned if they don't.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

Anyone else think that this is a waste of much-needed capacity on the xc network

No, because it actually adds capacity. If you have everything out at all times then you are screwed if something fails (and trust me, things will fail) so having something sitting spare in the busiest and most central location of the entire XC network is definitely a good thing.
I guess from a passenger point of view the big thing is you won't even notice if your train is the booked unit or the spare set. You will notice if there is a cancelled train that could have been avoided if somebody hadn't decided to send four extra coaches to Bristol or somewhere instead of leaving them in Birmingham.

 

[Blindtraveler]

now I aint one for praising XC but this does make sense and unless I am mistaken they do it elsewhere too - there often seams to be one hanging round at Craigentiny middle of the day when I pass. Unsure if this booked to do this but its not unknown for a unit to be found when something at the Scottish end cocks up.

 

[ushawk]

Anyone else think that this is a waste of much-needed capacity on the xc network

Not really, say if a Bristol - Manchester service had to be terminated at Cheltenham due to an incident - the spare would then be able to pick up the rest of the journey from New Street, which means people on the rest of the route won't be delayed.

It's being sensible and that's needed on such a vast network.

 

[O L Leigh]

Loads of companies will have standby units positioned at strategic points on the network during the day just in case it goes awry at some point. This isn't unusual.

O L Leigh

 

[Peter Mugridge]

In some cases the spares are ke[t in a platform at a terminus; sometimes an active platform - I have often wondered whether in such cases the hot spare has ever been trapped in the platform by the active train in the same platform failing?

 

[O L Leigh]

Not that I am aware of. But the Liv St standby unit was once trapped due to an electric tractor and the two wheelie bins it was towing being driven over the edge of the platform.

O L Leigh

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Anyone else think that this is a waste of much-needed capacity on the xc network

Absolutely not. The XC network is nost susceptible to any disruption due to length of its routes. The rollover set as it was called in virgin days is there to minimise disruption. As its name suggests it is called in to restart a late running service right time at new street thereby minimising the knock on effect of disruption. The original unit then becomes the hot spare in its place. It is used almost daily, yesterday as a result of a fatality in Durham it restarted a Southampton service on time where the previous train was over an hour late and the following reading was also delayed. The spare then found itself commandeered when the signalling failed in Doré.
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Loads of companies will have standby units positioned at strategic points on the network during the day just in case it goes awry at some point. This isn't unusual.

O L Leigh

TPE have one in York which doubles up with 1F61 in the morning and 1F70 in the afternoon, in between it sits in platform 1 as a hot spare ready to take over as a rollover if necessary or will cover a unit failure. Occasionally this ha caused 1F70 to go forward as a 3 car.

 

[dvboy]

The only thing that annoys me about this spare train is that it's usually noisy enough to drown out the announcements on platforms 5 and 6.

 

[DarloRich]

Anyone else think that this is a waste of much-needed capacity on the xc network

no, no one else thinks that and thankfully those in charge have a broader appreciation of operational flexibility - it is a useful and sensible redundancy system to try and keep the job moving in the event of any unpleasantness. It means XC trains can be restarted from New Street ( where I think a driver and guard change usually happens) right time in the event of an incoming service being heavily delayed thus meaning passengers up the line are not inconvenienced. It also means you have the potential to strengthen a service in the event of massive crowding.

 

[heart-of-wessex]

Anyone else think that this is a waste of much-needed capacity on the xc network

Just you I think lol!

My opinion is no, as mentioned it is needed and is a good location for one. If it was bolted on to one set then that's extra capacity for one diagram only, so is still pointless even if you took it off spare. At the end of the day it's only one Voyager, it's not like half the fleet are sitting spare

 

[Goatboy]

Of course there is a massive flaw to the 'hot spare' plan.

Take today for example. 1V60 Aberdeen to Penzance arrived 1 hour 15 late into New Street, so they cancelled it having sent the hot spare down right time in its path.

But the consequence of this is that everyone from that train who was travelling from stations before Birmingham to stations after Bristol was put onto 1V62 Glasgow to Penzance. This must be a special day as whilst I know RailForums posters tell us that nobody uses XC for long journeys and everyone uses it station hop in the 'core', it seems today that there were significant numbers of people travelling from before Birmingham to stations beyond Bristol.

This train is now absolutely - and I mean absolutely - wedged. Even the aisles between seats are wedged full of people. There is no way to make it from one coach to another or even make it as far as the toilet. It is frankly appalling.

Leaves you wondering whether perhaps sometimes its best to forego the 'hot spare' and use the extra unit for capacity in situations like this. It's also the end of the Cheltenham Cup today - so busy at Cheltenham that they had a queuing system in operation preventing access to the platform.

Not a good day to send a 4 coach Voyager filled with 9 coaches worth of passengers thorugh.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

This is the legacy of replacing 7 and 8 car mk2 and hst rakes with 4 car voyagers. Never mind the frequency was doubled, that didnt account for the increase in patronage nor the fact trains are normally busy on certain stretches at certain times of the day!!!

 

[Goatboy]

I think it took a special kinda of naivety to think that if you halve a train and run it twice as often you won't halve the passenger numbers per train

 

[dvboy]

Do XC sometimes keep a 170 at New Street as a hot spare also?