New trains for East Midlands Franchise

[tbtc]

Still surprised at the supposed procurement of 171s.
The 2-coach units have less seats than a 2-coach train they'd replace

It's not just about the number of seats though.

A 170/171 (with wider doors closer to the middle of each carriage and more space around those areas) can accommodate more standing passengers than a 153/156/158 and can provide faster station dwells than a 153/156/158 - passengers can circulate around the carriages easier.

156/158s are great machines but they aren't so good at services with regular intermediate stops where passengers need to struggle some way down the narrow aisle to reach the doors, nor are they great for services where passengers may have to stand (there's not a lot of room for people to pass each other, so anyone standing becomes an obstacle).

I'd love more seats and more standing place and more luggage space and shorter dwell times and all of that, sure, but I don't think a "seats vs seats" comparison is entirely fare here, since there are other factors at play.

 

[Nym]

But in this case, it does.

Seriously, accept the aims / plans for the East Midlands franchise is to have just three types of train: 80x, 360s, 170s. That's it. Three types of stock, one for each area of the business.

And pray tell, where are all these Turbostars going to magic themselves from?

 

[JonathanH]

And pray tell, where are all these Turbostars going to magic themselves from?

WMR have 17 2-cars and 6 3-cars
Southern have 12 2-cars and 8 4-cars plus 5 3-cars subleased to Scotrail

I make that 96 driving coaches and 27 intermediate coaches.

That seems more than enough for EMR assuming they stop running between Liverpool and Nottingham.

 

[TheBigD]

WMR have 17 2-cars and 6 3-cars
Southern have 10 2-cars and 8 4-cars plus 5 3-cars subleased to Scotrail

I make that 92 driving coaches and 27 intermediate coaches.

That seems more than enough for EMR assuming they stop running between Liverpool and Nottingham.

Pretty sure there are 12 x 2 car 171s.

 

[JonathanH]

Pretty sure there are 12 x 2 car 171s.

Yes, sorry 171201/2/721-30

 

[Roast Veg]

Ok, so let's say SN are losing all their 2 car 171s to EMR, and keeping the 4 car sets for Uckfield. That means a few 769s for Marshlink in bi-mode, or some equivalent. It looks like the 5(?) Uckfield diagrams per day can be run by their 12 units as 8 car sets plus spares, but doesn't that ruin their commitment to 10 car working on that line?

 

[Agent_Squash]

Ok, so let's say SN are losing all their 2 car 171s to EMR, and keeping the 4 car sets for Uckfield. That means a few 769s for Marshlink in bi-mode, or some equivalent. It looks like the 5(?) Uckfield diagrams per day can be run by their 12 units as 8 car sets plus spares, but doesn't that ruin their commitment to 10 car working on that line?

We're yet to see if they're gonna try and bi-mode a 377 yet.

 

[JonathanH]

Ok, so let's say SN are losing all their 2 car 171s to EMR, and keeping the 4 car sets for Uckfield.

That's not likely. 10-car peak Uckfields are pretty important for capacity to London Bridge and there is no platform length issue that would make it advantageous to run shorter trains than the maximum length.

 

[cnjb8]

But in this case, it does.

Seriously, accept the aims / plans for the East Midlands franchise is to have just three types of train: 80x, 360s, 170s. That's it. Three types of stock, one for each area of the business.

If you are still unbelieving, email EMR and find out yourself.




Still surprised at the supposed procurement of 171s.
The 2-coach units have less seats than a 2-coach train they'd replace (presumably they'd swap 2-coach services for 2-coach services, apart from the 153 single units).

We're yet to see if they're gonna try and bi-mode a 377 yet.

Doesnt necessarily mean 171s can be converted to 170s.
Do the soon to be off lease 350/2s have 4th rail capabilities?

 

[Roast Veg]

That's what I thought. There was a massive drive to use that capacity only recently.

 

[swt_passenger]

Doesnt necessarily mean 171s can be converted to 170s.
Do the soon to be off lease 350/2s have 4th rail capabilities?

171s were converted from 170s, some only recently, so I think it would be odd if they couldn’t be reverted.

350/2s do not have “3rd rail” capability as of now, but it would be a lot easier to add than most suggested mods we read about here...

 

[RealTrains07]

Doesnt necessarily mean 171s can be converted to 170s.
Do the soon to be off lease 350/2s have 4th rail capabilities?

350/2s are not suitable unless they replace 171s running on routes which are also just electrified

 

[Fincra5]

Buses south of Hurst Green to Uckfield and through Uckfield trains switched to East Grinstead?

Aye that would go down well with the Commuters!

The only thing is a New Fleet of Bi-Modes (requires SDO etc). Or for NR to plug the gaps and electrify the lines. Either seems that plusable in 2 Years tbh.

 

[hwl]

171s were converted from 170s, some only recently, so I think it would be odd if they couldn’t be reverted.

350/2s do not have “3rd rail” capability as of now, but it would be a lot easier to add than most suggested mods we read about here...

SDO is required so 350/2 would have to have that retrofitted to in addition to 3rd rail.
Southern will also likely to want to go DOO too so camera would go a miss.

 

[cnjb8]

350/2s do not have “3rd rail”

Oops

 

[londonmidland]

Speaking of 170’s, how will they perform on local stop-start routes?

They have relatively slow acceleration compared to 15X’s and the stop-start nature of some routes can’t be good for their engines, as I’ve heard they (the engines) are better suited for prolonged higher speed journeys?

I know Cross Country use 170’s on local workings mind you although they still regularly get above the 50/60mph range.

 

[Failed Unit]

Speaking of 170’s, how will they perform on local stop-start routes?

They have relatively slow acceleration compared to 15X’s and the stop-start nature of some routes can’t be good for their engines, as I’ve heard they (the engines) are better suited for prolonged higher speed journeys?

I know Cross Country use 170’s on local workings mind you although they still regularly get above the 50/60mph range.

ScotRail have used them on local journeys such as fife circle. No problems.

Remember these have worked most of the routes under CT without issue.

 

[hwl]

Speaking of 170’s, how will they perform on local stop-start routes?

They have relatively slow acceleration compared to 15X’s and the stop-start nature of some routes can’t be good for their engines, as I’ve heard they (the engines) are better suited for prolonged higher speed journeys?

I know Cross Country use 170’s on local workings mind you although they still regularly get above the 50/60mph range.

Good apart from the fuel consumption...

 

[OTRail]

Speaking of 170’s, how will they perform on local stop-start routes?

They have relatively slow acceleration compared to 15X’s and the stop-start nature of some routes can’t be good for their engines, as I’ve heard they (the engines) are better suited for prolonged higher speed journeys?

I know Cross Country use 170’s on local workings mind you although they still regularly get above the 50/60mph range.

Not to mention that the bulk of 170s (WMT units) transferring to EMR already do those types of workings (Birmingham to Shrewsbury and Snow Hill Lines).

 

[edwin_m]

EMR doesn't have that many stop-start workings. Robin Hood line is probably the only one that's stop-start from end to end, and Barton-on-Humber if EMR gets it. Others such as Ivanhoe and Matlock have sections of fast running.

 

[whhistle]

And pray tell, where are all these Turbostars going to magic themselves from?

I've already posted a solution, as have others.
But I'm guessing the MD and their team have already thought about where they will come from and I'm sure over the next few years all will be revealed.

 

[43074]

I've already posted a solution, as have others.
But I'm guessing the MD and their team have already thought about where they will come from and I'm sure over the next few years all will be revealed.

Yes that will all have been looked at as part of their bid so it is known exactly where the units will come from.

 

[LowLevel]

Tony Miles has implied very strongly on the WNXX forum that EMR do indeed have a contract in place for the 171s regardless of what they're replaced with in a Chiltern/TPEesque manner that the DfT have allowed to occur and everyone else is now trying to sort out.

 

[Pete_uk]

I understand that the 800's they may get are only going to be 23/24 meters long. Any idea why this could be?

 

[JamesT]

I understand that the 800's they may get are only going to be 23/24 meters long. Any idea why this could be?

From previous posts in this thread, that’s the maximum they can be and you have a 10-car (2x5) fit in many of the stations without requiring remodelling.

 

[Roast Veg]

And pretty extensive remodelling it would need to be too, at nearly every station.

 

[swt_passenger]

From previous posts in this thread, that’s the maximum they can be and you have a 10-car (2x5) fit in many of the stations without requiring remodelling.

St Pancras would be the major issue, I’d have thought. At many or most other stations I think it would be practical to find the extra 20m.

 

[samuelmorris]

I understand that the 800's they may get are only going to be 23/24 meters long. Any idea why this could be?

Predominantly so an extra generator unit can fit in the same design that uses driving trailers. 10x24m will also be a better use of space than 9x26m (where 10x26m would be too long)

 

[Qwerty133]

St Pancras would be the major issue, I’d have thought. At many or most other stations I think it would be practical to find the extra 20m.

I'd imagine the likes of Leicester and Derby would be at least as problematic as st Pancras if not more so. Especially at Leicester where the current layout has lines for platforms separating at the very last minute at the northern end and a bridge over the railway at the southern end.

 

[edwin_m]

I'd imagine the likes of Leicester and Derby would be at least as problematic as st Pancras if not more so. Especially at Leicester where the current layout has lines for platforms separating at the very last minute at the northern end and a bridge over the railway at the southern end.

Leicester, Derby, Nottingham and Sheffield are plenty long enough. The main problem is St Pancras where it would be impractical to move the buffer stops towards the train shed and there is a curve and pointwork immediately off the platform ends. Most of the other stations have been (or are being) lengthened to be about the same as St Pancras but a slightly longer train would be possible with Selective Door Opening.