Next Northern Rail franchise consultation?

[34D]

Is there likely to be a formal consultation on the new franchise, as there have been consultations on other forthcoming franchises, please?

Thanks

 

[Gareth Marston]

Is there likely to be a formal consultation on the new franchise, as there have been consultations on other forthcoming franchises, please?

Thanks

Welsh Government said earlier this year that the replacement Wales and border franchise consultation would happen by October.

 

[harz99]

Welsh Government said earlier this year that the replacement Wales and border franchise consultation would happen by October.

Did you post on the wrong - Northern - thread?

 

[Eagle]

There very likely will be a consultation, but it might not be for a while being as according to the current schedule the new franchise is expected to start in February 2016.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Did you post on the wrong - Northern - thread?

OP asks about other franchises

 

[harz99]

OP asks about other franchises

Really? Unless I don't understand the written English language anymore, the OP asked about the possibility of a formal consultation on the forthcoming Northern Rail franchise and commented (not asks) on what has happened elsewhere.

 

[northwichcat]

There very likely will be a consultation, but it might not be for a while being as according to the current schedule the new franchise is expected to start in February 2016.

There could still be an interim franchise operated by DOR starting in 2014 if Northern can't agree specifics on an extension until 2016, such as the December 14 timetable change when the OHEs on Chat Moss are expected to be operational. However, there wouldn't likely be any consultation on an interim franchise.

 

[34D]

http://www.wymetro.com/news/Consultation_on_Rail_Strategy_for_the_North/

There is indeed a consultation. Isn't open for long though.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

http://www.wymetro.com/news/Consultation_on_Rail_Strategy_for_the_North/
There is indeed a consultation. Isn't open for long though.

With respect, that's not a consultation about a new franchise.
It's about the proposed Rail North strategy, a concept not yet agreed by HMG (it is part of the northern devolution proposals being put to DfT).
However attractive and intelligent, the DfT may still decide not to go with it, or even if it does, the franchises offered may look quite different.
The underlying issue is of course funding (and control).
Big choices ahead.

In the meantime we will just get short-term extensions of current deals.

 

[leejayd]

I read recently that the Dft are negotiating with Northern Rail to run the franchise till 2016.

Is this because no one else wants to run it?

Shows that transport sometimes isn't best placed in the private sector.

Why don't we taxpayers run it ourselves and keep the dividend, thereby reducing the subsidy?

In the absence of competition what is the benefit of giving it to the private sector?

 

[YorkshireBear]

Nope it is because after the virgin-first WCML debacle the franchise schedule went into meltdown and was re written with basically everyone going on for longer. It is just part of this. Most franchises are being extended such as FGW.

Public private is an arguement regularly held on here and right now I cant be bothered with it will leave that to someone else.

 

[Class377/5]

I read recently that the Dft are negotiating with Northern Rail to run the franchise till 2016.

Is this because no one else wants to run it?

Shows that transport sometimes isn't best placed in the private sector.

Why don't we taxpayers run it ourselves and keep the dividend, thereby reducing the subsidy?

In the absence of competition what is the benefit of giving it to the private sector?

Note you ask your first question to allow you to bring in the pubic/private debate to be stirred by assuming your own question being rather wide of the truth and taking the thread way off topic.

 

[tbtc]

I read recently that the Dft are negotiating with Northern Rail to run the franchise till 2016.

Is this because no one else wants to run it?

Shows that transport sometimes isn't best placed in the private sector.

Why don't we taxpayers run it ourselves and keep the dividend, thereby reducing the subsidy?

Interesting jump in logic... its nothing to do with the tedious public/ private debate, just a combination of the delays caused by the WCML franchise and the fact that electrification (etc) means that we don't know the future franchise map in northern England just yet

 

[YorkshireBear]

Note you ask your first question to allow you to bring in the pubic/private debate to be stirred by assuming your own question being rather wide of the truth and taking the thread way off topic.

It was originally a thread on its own that has been merged.

 

[northernchris]

Have Northern got the franchise until 2016? I've seen something somewhere that states Northern don't expect to be running it past 2014

 

[ainsworth74]

That was the plan. Then ICWC meltdown happened are the DfT now want to extend the Northern franchise out to February 2016 along with TPE (make of that what you will), however, I don't believe that this extension has actually been agreed as yet. Still plenty of time for it though.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Have Northern got the franchise until 2016? I've seen something somewhere that states Northern don't expect to be running it past 2014

The current deal runs out in March 2014.
However the timetable for new franchise competitions is here: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa..._data/file/170565/rail-franchise-schedule.pdf
so Northern are in negotiations for an extension to Jan 2016.
It is complicated by the wish to devolve more control locally and also the plans for the parallel TPE franchise.

 

[northwichcat]

It is complicated by the wish to devolve more control locally and also the plans for the parallel TPE franchise.

Awarding a possible combined Northern/TPE franchise to start in 2014 could have made things harder for DfT for the following reasons:
1. If it's a franchise commitment to start running something at a certain date and a cascade cannot be arranged in time then DfT would have to order additional stock, as has happened with Southern, opposed to delaying new services, as has happened with Manchester to Burnley.
2. No decision has yet been made as to whether North TPE will get new or cascaded stock and approximately how many vehicles will be ordered.
3. A final decision has not been made on rolling stock for Thames Valley electric services. A decision which could significantly change the number of 319s available to cascade to the north of England.
4. Some of the Northern Hub proposals haven't yet been finalised. For instance a Stockport-Denton-Victoria service is a recommended proposal but isn't 100% certain and there are quite a few other proposals like that such as an additional Halifax-Leeds service every hour.

 

[sheff'd victoria]

Our group was asked to provide feedback on Rail North a few weeks ago about the lines our RUG looks after, our comments are now in the hands of South Yorkshire PTE for some bazzar reason ?

 

[Class377/5]

Awarding a possible combined Northern/TPE franchise to start in 2014 could have made things harder for DfT for the following reasons:
1. If it's a franchise commitment to start running something at a certain date and a cascade cannot be arranged in time then DfT would have to order additional stock, as has happened with Southern, opposed to delaying new services, as has happened with Manchester to Burnley.
2. No decision has yet been made as to whether North TPE will get new or cascaded stock and approximately how many vehicles will be ordered.
3. A final decision has not been made on rolling stock for Thames Valley electric services. A decision which could significantly change the number of 319s available to cascade to the north of England.

1) talks which are still on going despite the start of the TSGN ITT, which had the bidders do the date parts

2) Do we have an educated guess of how many units will be required?

3) the final decision over GW units may also affect the timing of 319s being used (more freed up earlier) and how quickly they can get them refurbished.

In summary the stock issue is highly complex with at least 6 operators involved which juggling franchise extension and letting which may actually make it easier to move stock across franchises. Its going to be interesting to see how this all plays out.

 

[northwichcat]

Our group was asked to provide feedback on Rail North a few weeks ago about the lines our RUG looks after, our comments are now in the hands of South Yorkshire PTE for some bazzar reason ?

At present Rail North can't take any action to change things but SYPTE can, provided it affects South Yorkshire. SYPTE are a Rail North partner: http://www.railstrategynorth.com/about-the-partners/
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

2) Do we have an educated guess of how many units will be required?

We're expecting:
1. Half-hourly Liverpool-Newcastle service (approx. 3 hour journey time.)
2. Half-hourly Manchester Airport-York service (approx 1.5 hour journey time.)
3. Hourly semi-fast Piccadilly-Selby service (approx 1.5 hour journey time.)

Then possibly:
4. Hourly semi-fast Piccadilly-Hull - which would be DMU operated but may change to EMU if Selby-Hull gets electrified (approx 2 hour journey time.)
5. New stock for Manchester Airport-Scotland with Liverpool portions added to 50% of services (15 units - based on the fact 10 are required for Manchester Airport to Scotland.)

However, what form an order will take is a different question. You could order one fleet of 4/5 car EMUs and give all the routes to one operator.

Alternatively, number 1 could go to East Coast and get IEP, number 5 could go to West Coast and get mini-Pendolinos leaving new/refurbished regional EMUs required for the rest.

 

[Andrew32]

Sorry to go way off the subject, will this affect the recruitment of new staff at Northern Rail?

I applied April, passed interview and tests in June, was put on hold till September then placed in the talent pool after been told that there will be no recruitment of staff at Skipton for the remainder of 2013 and no train driving vacancies in West Yorkshire till January 2014 at least.

Last month they had another recruitment phase to boost numbers lying in wait for upcoming positions at Skipton and Leeds.

Most conductors on the whardale/airedale line told me that the extension to 2016 was agreed earlier this year.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Decisions on stock allocation won't have much bearing on franchise extension/renewal.
But the date/nature of any devolution and the then franchise map will.

 

[northwichcat]

Sorry to go way off the subject, will this affect the recruitment of new staff at Northern Rail?

Shouldn't do. Northern need to employ enough staff to run all their services and need to replace staff who have left. If the franchise ends your employment will automatically be passed over to the new franchisee on the same terms.

Most conductors on the whardale/airedale line told me that the extension to 2016 was agreed earlier this year.

Apparently Northern have told their staff it's practically a signed deal. Although, Northern claim they are in discussions with DfT whenever they are asked about any plans post-April 2014.

 

[Andrew32]

Five people have left Skipton via retirement and still haven't been replaced yet.

Don't know why.

 

[Class377/5]

We're expecting:
1. Half-hourly Liverpool-Newcastle service (approx. 3 hour journey time.)
2. Half-hourly Manchester Airport-York service (approx 1.5 hour journey time.)
3. Hourly semi-fast Piccadilly-Selby service (approx 1.5 hour journey time.)

Then possibly:
4. Hourly semi-fast Piccadilly-Hull - which would be DMU operated but may change to EMU if Selby-Hull gets electrified (approx 2 hour journey time.)
5. New stock for Manchester Airport-Scotland with Liverpool portions added to 50% of services (15 units - based on the fact 10 are required for Manchester Airport to Scotland.)

However, what form an order will take is a different question. You could order one fleet of 4/5 car EMUs and give all the routes to one operator.

Alternatively, number 1 could go to East Coast and get IEP, number 5 could go to West Coast and get mini-Pendolinos leaving new/refurbished regional EMUs required for the rest.

So should be something like 30 amount of services with length 4/5/8 cars possibly meaning more or less units required in peak.

1. 7
2. 4
3. 2

4. 2
5. 15

 

[northwichcat]

So should be something like 30 amount of services with length 4/5/8 cars possibly meaning more or less units required in peak.

1. 7
2. 4
3. 2

4. 2
5. 15

Hull to Manchester is currently 5 diagrams and you're reducing it to 2?!

 

[Class377/5]

Hull to Manchester is currently 5 diagrams and you're reducing it to 2?!

Sorry I forgot to add in standing time for 3 & 4 and only did one direction for each of them. That'll teach me for doing three things at once.

Should be more like 47 units with

1. 14 units
2. 8 units
3. 5 units
4. 5 units
5. 15 units

The 387 order could be for a total of 64 units giving around 10 units (with 7 for maintenance) spare. This could allow for CLC line to be electrified by using only 387 units. Bit of guess work tho.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The current deal runs out in March 2014.
However the timetable for new franchise competitions is here: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa..._data/file/170565/rail-franchise-schedule.pdf
so Northern are in negotiations for an extension to Jan 2016. It is complicated by the wish to devolve more control locally and also the plans for the parallel TPE franchise.

Recent telephone conversations with Northern Rail at Leeds have intimated the current status quo situation until March 2014 and then reflected the current as yet non-agreement after that date. I wonder if their Customer Relations advisors have issued with a pre-prepared script of answers to give to queries on matters past March 2014.

 

[Class377/5]

Recent telephone conversations with Northern Rail at Leeds have intimated the current status quo situation until March 2014 and then reflected the current as yet non-agreement after that date. I wonder if their Customer Relations advisors have issued with a pre-prepared script of answers to give to queries on matters past March 2014.

Makes sense as currently DfT is still busy arranging thing even tho something have been announced like the 319 transfer away from Thameslink still hasn't been signed off yet so its not surprising that Northern is saying nothing. They can't until its a signed deal.