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No rear tail lamps

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delt1c

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saw a Stansted Express one morning last week (still Dark) with no rear red lights. In the days of lineside signal boxes this would have been noted and reported by the signal man. got me wondering who now checks. I gather that it would have been cleared from both Liverpool St and Tottenham Hale , but do dispatchers check the rear tail lights?
 
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driver9000

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A train with no tail lamp should be reported immediately to the signalbox by any member of staff who notices it dispatchers included.
 

GB

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As driver9000 says, any member of staff that notices it should report it. This can range from platform/ticket staff to other drivers and those that might be on the line...and of course signallers if in view.

Same goes for white lights at the rear.
 

ChrisTheRef

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I saw a 142 leaving Lime Street the other week with tails at the front. As our train passed, the driver continually tooted the horn to catch the 142's attention
 

Aictos

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As driver9000 says, any member of staff that notices it should report it. This can range from platform/ticket staff to other drivers and those that might be on the line...and of course signallers if in view.

Same goes for white lights at the rear.

Exactly, this is something I've had to do while working - first person you contact is the signaller who then gets in touch with the driver via the CSR and advises him or her of the issue.

It's one of the reasons why us dispatchers have to observe the whole train leave the platform before dealing with the wonderful public.
 

Dolive22

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To quote section 5 of G1 'Whenever you can, you must check a moving train for anything
that looks unsafe such as: ... the tail lamp is missing or is not lit' and 'If you see any of these hazards or warnings or other dangers, you
must immediately tell the signaller, or if this is not possible, the
person in charge (who must tell the signaller).'

Did the train actually stop at both stations?
 

O L Leigh

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We're making a couple of assumptions here. Firstly that the train left Liv St without tail lights and that no-one spotted the omission. It's certainly one possibility but not the only one.

The despatch staff at both Liv St and Tott Hale watch the trains clear of their platforms and will report anything that is amiss. I find it odd that a train can get as far as Waltham Cross without tail lights and not be reported, even at such an early hour. Consequently it could be the case that the lights had failed or someone had been into the back cab and may have knocked the switch into the "off" position by accident. Equally, the lack of tail lights could have been noticed and reported and perhaps it had been agreed that the train would be stopped at Cheshunt or, better still, Broxbourne for the problem to be dealt with.

The reason in the Rules for reporting trains without tail lights is an old one, though no less relevant even today. The lack of a tail light is one indicator that a train may have divided and that a portion of it might remain in the section. This is more important for lines signalled by Absolute Block than for lines with track circuits, as there is no other way to prove that a train has cleared the section but to watch it go past the box and visually check that it is complete. It also explains why it is important to report the lack of a tail light immediately, as it could indicate a major risk to other trains.

That said, a train division would not have happened without the driver knowing it in this case. Plus the Lea Valley route is all Track Circuit Block, so no danger existed. The worst that could have happened is that they weren't changed over in London and no-one noticed. But the Rules must still be followed.

O L Leigh
 

Old Timer

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Back in the 80s we used to let F/Liners run to Willesden or Rugby when a tail lamp went out rather than stop them when it was very quiet. We used to pass them box to box, and we would protect the train by using emergency replacements.

If it was busy then were I worked, we would arrange to have a tail lamp available, and I would go down onto the platform. We would stop the Driver tell him we were changing his lamp and get him to draw forward and then slow to walking pace. Jump onto the track change the lamps, and then give him a green after wihich he was right away.

Done it many times to minimise delay.

I am sure in today's environment it would result in a mini Inquiry with all the Safety Taliban getting the vapours and having to have time off.
 

Wyvern

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Presumably it is worse for a light to be one when it shouldn't be. A red light on the front could give a driver approaching on the other line a fit of the abdabs.
 

Daniel

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Could a member of the public who noticed this then report it?

If you count LUL Staff as a member of the public where NR is concerned, I've reported things a number of times.
Provided the SPT is on the platform in a public are I have no problem reporting something if I feel a need, be it headlights on the rear, or, as been happening recently, Brimsdown and Enfield Lock LC's being lowered in excess of 45 minutes - (it transpires from talking to the siggies that they've been getting stuck in manual).

Anyway, whenever I've reported something, despite not being NR staff, the signallers have always been appreciative.
 

GB

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I am sure in today's environment it would result in a mini Inquiry with all the Safety Taliban getting the vapours and having to have time off

Happened fairly recently on the NLL. A driver reported no tail lamp on a passing freightliner train and it was suggested that the offending train draw foward to the signal box for the signaller to receive the spare lamp. However the loco didnt have one so another freight train was stopped to get another lamp for the signaller to put on the back.
 

HSTfan!!!

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It's one of the reasons why us dispatchers have to observe the whole train leave the platform before dealing with the wonderful public.

If the public haven't already stood right in front of your view of the train grrr get out the way you blithering idiot! lol

Could a member of the public who noticed this then report it?
you could always tell a member of staff if one is available, someone suggested calling the signaller yourself, not too sure on that one rules wise, but if the signaller has been appreciative I can't see why not - but I have noticed some SPT's in public areas are starting to be locked with BR1 keys.
 
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Daniel

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One thing I'd note about calling the signaller - if your going to do it, don't if you don't know what to say. You need to identify yourself, make sure you know who you're speaking to, and not just say 'the last train through Enfield Lock had no lights on the back'...
 

GB

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An SPT is just a means of communication that allows the signaller to know exactly where the caller is calling from. Theres nothing special about it and as far as I know (I could be wrong) there is no rule pertaining to the use of such a phone by a member of the public to report a potentially hazardous situation.

Signallers are all professional so a member of public is not really expected to use the correct communications procedure that is drummed into all rail staff, just the same as using a phone at a level crossing.
 

delt1c

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The interesting thing here is that after departure from Tottenham the next station where there may be staff on duty on the platform is Cheshunt. With the abolition of platform staff and signal boxes trains could run a considerable distance without any staff observing their passage. One thing I was wondering is that withh CCTV at level crossings are they monitored when a train passes.
 

GB

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One thing I was wondering is that withh CCTV at level crossings are they monitored when a train passes.

Under normal operation no. Once the barriers have lowered and the crossing clear button (or similar) pressed the picture automatically swtiches off after a few seconds.

There is a button to keep the picture on constantly, but due to the angle of the camera/picture, speed of trains and the fact that most CCTV pictures are B&W, it would be near impossible to use it to check if the tail lights are lit.
 

O L Leigh

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The interesting thing here is that after departure from Tottenham the next station where there may be staff on duty on the platform is Cheshunt.

Make that Broxbourne.

As I said above, with MU stock on track circuited lines the chances of a missing tail light indicating a train had divided and that then causing an undetected obstruction are virtually zero. If any of our MU's come unhooked it would trigger an emergency brake application on both portions bringing the entire train to a stand. While the reason behind this rule's inclusion is critical, it is only actually so in some circumstances.

O L Leigh
 

daza7789

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As I said above, with MU stock on track circuited lines the chances of a missing tail light indicating a train had divided and that then causing an undetected obstruction are virtually zero. If any of our MU's come unhooked it would trigger an emergency brake application on both portions bringing the entire train to a stand. While the reason behind this rule's inclusion is critical, it is only actually so in some circumstances.

Yes very true, infact the rules govening trains passing over failed track circuits does not acctually require the train to be seen complete with tail lamp (T1B section 13 IIRC) and thus also relys on any devision of the train to be notified by the loss of brake continuity triggering a brake application. In these days with everything fully fitted it would be virtualy nill chance of a devison going undetected. Of course in any cases if the line is signalled by absolute block then a train without a taillamp can ring alarm bells.

Daz
 

TDK

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Yes very true, infact the rules govening trains passing over failed track circuits does not acctually require the train to be seen complete with tail lamp (T1B section 13 IIRC) and thus also relys on any devision of the train to be notified by the loss of brake continuity triggering a brake application. In these days with everything fully fitted it would be virtualy nill chance of a devison going undetected. Of course in any cases if the line is signalled by absolute block then a train without a taillamp can ring alarm bells.

Daz

There is a possibility though if the EBS on a unit or similar (EBS brakes the brake contiunity for emergency use) and will bypass the train wire for the coupler, however the risk is low as if all these circumstances happened it would be one in 100000 or so, but even so it could happen, the rule quotes that the guard must travel in the rear portion in the would be leading cab in case of a division when the EBS or similar is operated lowering the risk of an undetected portion of a train in section. However I do remember an incident that was publicised where a driver in a DOO train on the southeastern left the rear part of his train near Catford somewhere and didn't know, this was in a TCB area so no risk of a collision.
 

dk1

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Mind you, quite a few SPT's mounted on platforms along the WA routes are kept in locked boxed to prevent vandalism or abuse.

O L Leigh

You'll have to transfer over to the East & North mate. We dont have such hoodlums on our side & no locked boxes ;)
 

O L Leigh

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There is a possibility though if the EBS on a unit or similar (EBS brakes the brake contiunity for emergency use) and will bypass the train wire for the coupler.

That's true.

But under such circumstances the signaller would be talking you across the failed section and instruct you to proceed at caution, not because you might come across the rear portion of divided train that had been EBS'ed (how long would the odds be on that happening!!), but because there could be a track defect or some other problem. This means being able to stop in the distance you can see to be clear.

However, even though a train may have been EBS'ed, the rear portion would still come to a stand because it's drumswitch (or whatever equivalent DMU's and modern EMU's have) would be in the wrong position, thereby causing a brake application. Even though the EBS creates a mini-brake continuity circuit around the leading cab, there is still another degraded circuit that covers the rest of the train including the coupler block (though only for any units not EBS'ed) and the low main-air governers.

You'll have to transfer over to the East & North mate. We dont have such hoodlums on our side & no locked boxes ;)

No thanks.

O L Leigh
 
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TDK

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Could a member of the public who noticed this then report it?

Would you report a car with no lights on? No, you would let them know by flashing your headlights, however I feel sometimes a little knowledge of the railway can be dangerous as an enthusiast reported an obstruction on the line near Birmingham and all it was is a temporary stop block on a disused goods line the delay costs were huge!
 

Dolive22

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A gate leading down to the track which I walk past most days has recently had a huge board fitted just inside it with track layout, RED ZONE PROHIBITED, the signal box controlling the line, the reference for the entrance and the internal and external phone numbers for the signaller.

I walked past that gate a year or two ago and the gate was open, with lots of little kids on the way to school. I was almost at college so I just got the number for BTP off the computer at college and rang them, but I might well have rang the signaller had the board been there, not least because I could then have stayed at the gate to make sure no kids got to the line. Would I have been doing the right thing?

I have some idea of the procedure, but not anything like the standard railway staff have.
 

ralphchadkirk

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That's a tough one Dolive21.
I don't think ringing the signaller would be a good idea - see TDK's post, and the fact you would be trespassing. However, staying there stopping the kids getting on the line may have been a good idea.
In my position at the Mid-Hants, we have good relations with NR and Farnham Box, and we are trained on how/where to ring from and how to talk to them. There (at Alton), I would have no qualms in getting on the SPT (which is in a public area, but has now been moved down onto the barrier crossing which we are allowed and trained to use) and reporting an obstruction or an emergency, but I wouldn't do it for something like no tail lamps.
 

Dolive22

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I wouldn't have gone trackside, even an idiot (including me) can see why the area is red zone prohibited, and I am not (quite) stupid enough to trespass on the track anyway. You can see the number from outside. One of the numbers is a normal phone number that would work from any mobile or landline.

I suppose the call would have gone something like:
This is XXX YYY at Place Road West. A gate giving access to the track at this location is open and had been for an indeterminate time.

How well would I have done? Place Road West is on the board and I think uniquely identifies the location.

If not calling the signaller what? 999 because life is in danger? Would you ask for the police? How well set up are home office forces for railway incidents.

I know they took the report fairly seriosuly because whne I went home a few hours later it was firmly padlocked shut.
 

Old Timer

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kids got to the line. Would I have been doing the right thing?

I have some idea of the procedure, but not anything like the standard railway staff have.
I see no problem with that.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Yes very true, infact the rules govening trains passing over failed track circuits does not acctually require the train to be seen complete with tail lamp (T1B section 13 IIRC) and thus also relys on any devision of the train to be notified by the loss of brake continuity triggering a brake application. In these days with everything fully fitted it would be virtualy nill chance of a devison going undetected. Of course in any cases if the line is signalled by absolute block then a train without a taillamp can ring alarm bells.Daz
The initial failure of the track circuit to clear after the passage of the train requires the Signlaman to confirm that the train has passed clear complete. This can be done by asking a member of station staff to check the presence of tail lights/lamp for example.

If necessary the train needs to be stopped to confirm it is complete.

The next train is then sent through to examine the line throughout.

Assuming no obvious obstruction or defect, trains on the affected line are cautioned through. The Signalman should observe each train occupy and clear the signal section ahead, before authorising the next train through.
 

ralphchadkirk

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I wouldn't have gone trackside, even an idiot (including me) can see why the area is red zone prohibited, and I am not (quite) stupid enough to trespass on the track anyway. You can see the number from outside. One of the numbers is a normal phone number that would work from any mobile or landline.
sorry chap, I thought you meant there was an actual phone next to the sign as there isn't, then I don't see a problem, and in fact your communication was very good!
 

Old Timer

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An SPT is just a means of communication that allows the signaller to know exactly where the caller is calling from. Theres nothing special about it and as far as I know (I could be wrong) there is no rule pertaining to the use of such a phone by a member of the public to report a potentially hazardous situation.

Signallers are all professional so a member of public is not really expected to use the correct communications procedure that is drummed into all rail staff, just the same as using a phone at a level crossing.
SPTs are provided for the purpose of contacting the Signalman when the train arrives at a red signal (the former Rule 55 / Section K).
 
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