No Trains on Boxing Day

[Lewisham2221]

Because rail receives a massive subsidy, largely paid by people who use trains rarely or never, on the basis that it is an essential public service.

Lots of taxpayer funded/subsidised services aren't available today...

 

[NewarkRed]

Since the railway seems to love variable pricing, quotas and auctions, perhaps they should use this for staffing boxing day. Just keep upping the pay until sufficient staff are willing to work on the boxing day. Even better, tie it directly to a reverse auction of extra expensive advance tickets so people can put their money where their mouth is if they really want to travel.

Good idea - Boxing Day train tickets on Seatfrog

 

[AverageJoe]

Perhaps we shut the forum down if we're not allowed engage in pointless conversation.

Most conversation is pointless.

I made a statement on what I would want if I were to work Boxing Day and you reply with a vision of how the ticketing and payroll should work.

What do you want me to do with that information?

 

[43066]

Overground was x4 or x3 and a day in lieu or 2x and 2 days in lieu.

3-4* driver daily pay would be a decent amount, and is in line with NR etc. you’d definitely get volunteers at our place and I suspect most others.

We looked at a fairly comprehensive England and Wales service pattern for Boxing Day many years ago when I worked with ATOC - allowing for known route blocks and providing for eample one route to London - Birmingham and so on. Obviously demand as well as operational elements were considered - and over a shortened working day. There was very good input from the TOC's.

So , allowing for extra staffing costs etc - it pretty much was the right side of a business case.

Of course , the DfT refused any consideration and got quite cross that we had done this pro bono public excercise. Never considered again.

No great surprise there! I doubt it will change in the foreseeable future.

 

[Haywain]

And those that aren’t in safety critical roles can probably just rock up half asleep and with a hangover with no question being asked, so at least the Christmas Day wasn’t interrupted

That's just not true - the same rules apply to everyone in the railway industry.

 

[TUC]

We are not other industries however. We have strong unions who have long fought for our working conditions. I for one am celebrating my 40th Christmas of railway employment and haven’t worked a single 25th or 26th December in that time.

That still doesn't explain why that should be the primary driver for a customer-facing business?

 

[AverageJoe]

That's just not true - the same rules apply to everyone in the railway industry.

Who said I was referring to the railway industry?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

No, Boxing Day is not “definitely” a bank holiday in Scotland. As things stand it will not be a bank holiday next year for example.

Gov.uk seems to think it is.

UK bank holidays

Find out when bank holidays are in England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland - including past and future bank holidays

www.gov.uk

Extract...

Upcoming bank holidays in Scotland

2025
26 December Friday Boxing Day

 

[12LDA28C]

As I’ve mentioned up the thread they just can’t just show up and run a service like Uber
Your man with the letters and numbers in their name thinks not so I’m offering alternatives…

Enough trolling now. You claim it's the Government which is preventing Lumo from operating services today. I'll ask you, yet again, to provide evidence of this. Just answer the question.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Dec 2024 ==

Is it really that bad on TOCs such as Chiltern? Is this through personal experience? or is this just a guess?

No, it's not. That's why there is never a shortage of volunteers to work on Boxing Day.

 

[Haywain]

Who said I was referring to the railway industry?

The rest of your post clearly suggested that you were - you referred to "a train driver is arriving fit for work" and to "safety critical roles", and there are many of the latter in the rail industry. It's difficult to know what else such comments might be referring to, but if it is some other industry perhaps you could be clear about what it is.

 

[AverageJoe]

The rest of your post clearly suggested that you were - you referred to "a train driver is arriving fit for work" and to "safety critical roles", and there are many of the latter in the rail industry. It's difficult to know what else such comments might be referring to, but if it is some other industry perhaps you could be clear about what it is.

perhaps you should ask if it wasn’t clear without jumping down my throat.

I didn’t say other roles within the railway so you have made the presumption.

The likes of supermarket staff, coffee establishments, small shops and the likes. If they are open today and walk in looking a little groggy I doubt very much anything is said. They enjoyed their Xmas and are now in work. And still likely on an enhanced rate.

Those that are working a job that will
Impact Xmas day, emergency services, public transport and the likes should definitely receive an enhanced rate.

That’s my opinion, take it as you will.

 

[snookertam]

Easy to amend and call at

Manors(For Newcastle)
Cramlington(For Morpeth)
One of the Edinburgh suburban stations
Northallerton
Thirsk

All easy to do!

This has to be a wind up.

 

[Haywain]

perhaps you should ask if it wasn’t clear without jumping down my throat.

I didn't "jump down your throat" and didn't ask because it was, to me at least, very clear what you were saying.

I didn’t say other roles within the railway so you have made the presumption.

The likes of supermarket staff, coffee establishments, small shops and the likes. If they are open today and walk in looking a little groggy I doubt very much anything is said. They enjoyed their Xmas and are now in work. And still likely on an enhanced rate.

Those that are working a job that will
Impact Xmas day, emergency services, public transport and the likes should definitely receive an enhanced rate.

None of those would be referred to in terms of being safety critical or not.

 

[deltic]

London Underground manages to run a comprehensive and well used service on Boxing Day showing demand is clearly there if the service is provided

 

[Haywain]

London Underground manages to run a comprehensive and well used service on Boxing Day showing demand is clearly there if the service is provided

The simple difference between that and National Rail is that LU have been doing this for many years and those who work for LU expect it to happen. Those who work for NR TOCs expect (in general terms) that there won't be any trains running.

 

[Lewisham2221]

London Underground manages to run a comprehensive and well used service on Boxing Day showing demand is clearly there if the service is provided

London is not representative of the country as a whole.

 

[Gemz91]

Yet other industries and sectors cope with staffing levels over the Christmas period without paying 3-4 times basic pay.

If I were to work Boxing Day then I’d definitely want an enhanced rate.

A major part of being a train driver is arriving fit for work, which means suitable sleep and not in the slightest under the effect of alcohol.

So for a lot of drivers who have to be in work early that would mean getting an early night on Xmas day and no alcohol.

Ours is one of the few jobs where the day before is greatly impacted, especially if you are on an early shift.

Just asked my friend who is a copper and they get double pay.

So there definitely won’t be many jobs that aren’t very well compensated for turning up for work on Boxing Day.

And those that aren’t in safety critical roles can probably just rock up half asleep and with a hangover with no question being asked, so at least the Christmas Day wasn’t interrupted

My partner’s a guard. They’ve had two days off over Christmas, yesterday and today. As you alluded to, today is a day off the alcohol for them, so I won’t have any either. Then they’ll be in bed by 8.30, so they can set their alarm for the morning so our teenager and I shall play a board game together. Bad enough doing this on Boxing Day, let alone Christmas Day.

At least when they worked in Next they could turn up at the crack of dawn for their Boxing Day shift hung over, how ever that was no fun for the family neither.

 

[Krokodil]

The notable thing is that airlines, retail, utilities, petrol stations, and so on all seem to be adequately staffed without any such whinging and whining.

Actually most retail employees aren't exactly over the moon at staying on after the shop has closed on Christmas Eve to put out the Sale labels, and having to be back in on Boxing Day on riot control duties. Mercifully some retailers saw sense during covid and let their staff have the time off.

 

[43066]

That still doesn't explain why that should be the primary driver for a customer-facing business?

It’s a public service, rather than a purely profit making business. You’ll find many other services aren’t available on Boxing Day either.

London is not representative of the country as a whole.

With staff paid and incentivised accordingly AIUI.

 

[class 9]

Because rail receives a massive subsidy, largely paid by people who use trains rarely or never, on the basis that it is an essential public service.

You could say that about roads to the millions that don't drive or schools to the people that don't have kids.

 

[185143]

If I've just overheard the TM on here correctly. They get double pay for working today, and a day in lieu if it'd be a rest day, and working it at all is voluntary.

Merseyrail that is.

 

[TUC]

The simple difference between that and National Rail is that LU have been doing this for many years and those who work for LU expect it to happen. Those who work for NR TOCs expect (in general terms) that there won't be any trains running.

So set that expectation for any new staff. Yes, it will take time to grow into a sufficient pool, but contractually they will be in no doubt when they take the job.

 

[GLC]

could a TOC not simply reduce the staffing bill by running their trains as DOO, letting the Safety Critical guards stay at home over the festive period? A full service could then return by the 6th of January

 

[TUC]

It’s a public service, rather than a purely profit making business. You’ll find many other services aren’t available on Boxing Day either.

AIUI.

So you're saying that being a public service means that customers should have lower expectations, and are less central to guiding what is offered, than a profit-making business? I'll go with the profit-making model then.

 

[skyhigh]

could a TOC not simply reduce the staffing bill by running their trains as DOO

No.

There are loads of reasons why you can't just "simply run DOO" when you feel like it.

 

[68000]

could a TOC not simply reduce the staffing bill by running their trains as DOO, letting the Safety Critical guards stay at home over the festive period? A full service could then return by the 6th of January

No - it will bring industrial relations chaos to the railway and in any event the infrastructure to run DOO is not in place for non-DOO services (and that includes on the rolling stock)

 

[dannypye9999]

Apart from in London, Disgraceful!

Why's it disgraceful? Are you cheesed off because you've missed your chance to spend Boxing day queing inside and outside of stores all day for a sale that is on through January. Shouldn't rely on public transport.

 

[Lewisham2221]

could a TOC not simply reduce the staffing bill by running their trains as DOO, letting the Safety Critical guards stay at home over the festive period? A full service could then return by the 6th of January

No.

So you're saying that being a public service means that customers should have lower expectations, and are less central to guiding what is offered, than a profit-making business? I'll go with the profit-making model then.

The "profit-making" model that doesn't guarantee Boxing Day operation, judging by the number of profit-making commercial entities which remain shut-down on Boxing Day

 

[68000]

So you're saying that being a public service means that customers should have lower expectations, and are less central to guiding what is offered, than a profit-making business? I'll go with the profit-making model then.

Wait until you see that the profit-making model would do to the rail services across Britain then

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wonder if part of the sales pitch to Merseyrail crews is getting to run fast?

That said, the 777s are arriving several minutes early at many stations so there may be scope to add more in next year.