Normanton-Leeds via Wakefield Kirkgate

[Waverley125]

Did this a couple of days ago.

Arrived at Normanton station at xx05, having just missed the xx54 service to Leeds. Seeing as services are hourly, decided to take the xx18 service to Wakefield Kirkgate (arriving xx23) and then the xx28 non-stop to Leeds.

I'd always thought that, in the lack of an existing service, one could double back to connect with a train going the right way. However I got charged for both Normanton-Wakefield and Wakefield-Leeds.

 

[323235]

Special arrangements for doubling back seem to generally only be made in the routing guide where a regular "existing service" doesn't exist or as a result of special consideration. in this case a regular service does exist because as you said above they are hourly, but through no fault of the railway unfortunately you missed it and decided that through your knowledge of the timetable it would be quicker to go to Wakefield Kirkgate and then get a service from there to Leeds (doubling back through Normanton).

You were charged correctly.

Interestingly If you had gone Normanton-Wakefield Kirkgate-Wakefield Westgate-Leeds East Coast booking site says you'd have been valid with a Return from Normanton - Leeds.

 

[tony_mac]

It also says the ticket would be valid just via Wakefield Kirkgate.
As does National Rail.

If National Rail says it is valid, then it should be accepted.

 

[323235]

so it does, I wasn't expecting that.
Seems the OP has been overcharged in that case.

 

[yorksrob]

It also says the ticket would be valid just via Wakefield Kirkgate.
As does National Rail.

If National Rail says it is valid, then it should be accepted.

This is true. I find NRE usually show the route via Wakefield Kirkgate. I've also in the past changed at Kirkgate and Westgate to get to Leeds. As for ticketing, I use a zone 3 metro card so I've never tested whether I'd be charged extra.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

It also says the ticket would be valid just via Wakefield Kirkgate.
As does National Rail.

If National Rail says it is valid, then it should be accepted.

I have said before, elsewhere, that just because NRES says it is valid, does not mean it is. The NRES journey planner looks for the quickest journey from A to B, taking no account of permitted routes, validity of tickets etc. In nearly all similar cases when you click through to the buy tickets stage, does it then tell you that you will need more than one ticket for this journey.

I know it is stupid, but that sums up the whole NRES site generally.

In this case however it does seem to indicate that a Normanton to Leeds ticket is valid to double back via Wakefield Kirkgate which is completely incorrect. It is not permitted as you are doubling back and there is no easement in place, so why it says it is valid I don't know. But it isn't. In this case it would seem that NRES is wrong full stop.

 

[John @ home]

Is Normanton - Leeds via Wakefield Westgate not more than 3 miles longer than the shortest route? If so, the NRG says it's a Permitted Route.

If not is it not more than 3 miles longer than the former shortest route prior to the re-opening of Normanton - Woodlesford direct when the Leeds - Nottingham semi-fasts started? Normanton has a negligible service by the direct line, so if this is the case we would need to check whether any assurances were given at that time about protecting existing validities.

 

[tony_mac]

It is not permitted as you are doubling back and there is no easement in place, so why it says it is valid I don't know. But it isn't. In this case it would seem that NRES is wrong full stop.

Although, I agree that it is wrong - NRES is supposed to be 'the definitive source of information for all passenger rail services'.

If they say it is valid, then it should be accepted, as that is where the public are told to get their information from. It is completely unacceptable that people are penalised for believing the official information that they were given.

It is probably wrong because Normanton is not a timing point, and hence the computer systems don't realise that the service is doubling-back.

 

[Anvil1984]

If they say it is valid, then it should be accepted,

I disagree with that, should guards be expected to know every NRES failing in memory / carry a list / take the passenger word there is a mistake. Why should the TOC's carry the can for another companies mistake. Proper process should be correct charge levied and complaint to NRES who pay back

 

[yorksrob]

should guards be expected to know every NRES failing in memory

More so than the passenger I'd say.

 

[Anvil1984]

Explain that, how should we know when we don't use NRES and passngers do. NRES problems are nothing to do with on-train staff they are the fault of NRES an oursourced company

 

[yorksrob]

Why exactly should the passenger be expected to stump up just because the railway can't get it's house in order?

 

[Anvil1984]

First of all go back and explain how you expect to guard to know NRES's failings when we don't use it

Secondly if NRES can't get its house in order then the passenger should claim through NRES, if they produce the printout to say its valid on the / close to the date of travel then leniency may be warranted but if someone says "NRES told me that" I would charge the correct fare as the error could be corrected at anytime andthe passenger cuuld have last checked weeks ago. The passenger may have been informed by other guards that it was a mistake and the actual rule is £xx.xx but another day another guard they might try it again as guard 1 may not be on that one for weeks

Why should I deliberately make a mistake

 

[yorkie]

If it's within 3 miles of the shortest route over which regular services operate, then I understand that it is valid irrespective of 'doubling back' as doubling back doesn't come into calculating the shortest route. Now is it? It's close.

http://mileage.railmiles.org is the best site to use for this sort of thing.

Via WKK
Normanton - Wakefield Kirkgate 3mi 04ch
Leeds - Wakefield Kirkgate (direct) 13mi 74ch
Total = 16mi 78ch

Via direct train (reverse at Castleford)
Normanton - Castleford 3mi 50ch (train reverses here)
Castleford - Leeds 10mi 63ch
Total = 14mi 33ch

So NRES is correct; it's a valid route. The passenger was incorrectly charged.

Complain to Northern and kindly ask that if their guards are unsure if a ticket is valid then they should not declare it invalid, ask what they intend to do to ensure this does not happen again.

Mistakes happen, but guards should only declare a ticket invalid if they are sure. If they do not have the means to check, then contact control. If control don't, that's their problem.

 

[Anvil1984]

See I wouldnt have known that not signig the route et al, also mind was confuzzled as theres 1 or two trains a day that don't run via Cas Vegas, 1 early morning springs to mind. But in general I'll stick to my guns if NRES is wrong I still would do my job right

 

[yorksrob]

First of all go back and explain how you expect to guard to know NRES's failings when we don't use it.

Since NRE is far and away the major source for train information, it is for the train company to liaise with them to ensure that the information is correct. If a Guard comes across a case like this (i.e where there could reasonably be doubt) and give the passenger the benefit of the doubt. They should then report it to their manager and the company should liaise with NRE to make sure they say the same.

Secondly if NRES can't get its house in order then the passenger should claim through NRES, if they produce the printout to say its valid on the / close to the date of travel then leniency may be warranted but if someone says "NRES told me that" I would charge the correct fare as the error could be corrected at anytime andthe passenger cuuld have last checked weeks ago. The passenger may have been informed by other guards that it was a mistake and the actual rule is £xx.xx but another day another guard they might try it again as guard 1 may not be on that one for weeks

Why should I deliberately make a mistake

Firstly, I and I'm sure the majority of passengers really aren't impressed when one bit of the railway tries to pass the buck on to the other. I don't see it as NRES not getting it's house in order, I see it as the railway not getting it's house in order.

Secondly, trying to claim back money from NRES is a lot of rigmorole for the passenger, particularly when dealing with a relatively small amount. If a railway company doesn't agree with what NRES is saying and thinks that it has lost out, it should go through the hassle of claiming back money from them. Then at least the railway would be sorting out it's own affairs rather than leaving it to the passenger.

Thirdly, if the guard thinks the passenger is lying about what NRES is saying, can't they ring through to a line manager or someone on the ground to check. That way if the passenger is telling porkies they can act accordingly.

 

[Anvil1984]

And then get complaints whilst we spend time trying to get through for not doing revenue and leave people queueing at the barriers at Leeds

Sorry but as I say a guard could have very easily told someone the day before there is a mistake and the passenger would have to pay £x.xx insteas how am I to know that, how are you to know that. My job is to be consistent among the passengers, if I charge 1 person £x.xx for the fare and then charged the person next to him or two rows in front the correct fare I am going to have the passenger having paid the correct fare kick off or possibly try it on. I have to be consistent with all passengers.

You may see NRES as the railway but they are a provate company, I agree to the passengers it doesnt look like that but in stark reality they are, if NRES has made a mistake fhen fair enough tell us and we can report it however we have to do whats right

 

[yorkie]

See I wouldnt have known that not signig the route et al, also mind was confuzzled as theres 1 or two trains a day that don't run via Cas Vegas, 1 early morning springs to mind. But in general I'll stick to my guns if NRES is wrong I still would do my job right

As you don't sign that route you can't be expected to know. If I was a guard and signed it, I'd try to do that research beforehand (yes easy for me to say I know) and if I came up across something like that I'd let the passenger continue, on that occasion at least, and make a note to check up on it later. A guard can't just charge them more and declare their ticket invalid on a whim, without evidence, and I trust they won't after Northern are contacted about this incident and have a word with the guard. If I was a guard and acted that way, I'd know I was taking a risk and would expect management to give me some suitable advice for next time.

Many jobs are difficult and demanding, but when in a customer-facing role, you can't expect to treat a customer this way and get away with it if you are not 100% certain you are right.

I trust the OP will ensure Northern are contacted, with full details of the service provided so suitable advice can be given. If you'd like me to proof read the letter feel free to PM me

To be fair, this must be quite rare on Northern. In my experience the vast majority of guards are sound. I did have on exception, a group of us on a York-Sheffield going via Wakefield Kirkgate to Huddersfield, the guard said it wasn't valid, we said it was in the Routeing Guide and he then tried to claim our onward train at Huddersfield was cancelled to try to put us off using his train. It wasn't. We didn't bother to complain (I very rarely do because I can't be bothered to be honest) but we should have. Possibly the same guard. Very rare to encounter someone like that, as I said before most guards are fine on Northern.

 

[tony_mac]

NRE is part of the Association of Train Operating Companies (ATOC).

I don't understand why the Train Operating Company should not be held accountable for the information that their own association gives out!

If they don't like it, they should get it fixed!

 

[yorkie]

Thirdly, if the guard thinks the passenger is lying about what NRES is saying, can't they ring through to a line manager or someone on the ground to check. That way if the passenger is telling porkies they can act accordingly.

Absolutely. National Rail = ATOC. Northern are members of ATOC. They need to, as the saying goes, 'deal with it'. Any company wanting a rail franchise knows what they are getting into!

And then get complaints whilst we spend time trying to get through for not doing revenue and leave people queueing at the barriers at Leeds

Then check it up later?

Sorry but as I say a guard could have very easily told someone the day before there is a mistake and the passenger would have to pay £x.xx insteas how am I to know that, how are you to know that. My job is to be consistent among the passengers, if I charge 1 person £x.xx for the fare and then charged the person next to him or two rows in front the correct fare I am going to have the passenger having paid the correct fare kick off or possibly try it on. I have to be consistent with all passengers.

What's the inconsistency here? If there was a group of people who all missed the train from Normanton, who then went the longer route (but less than 3 miles longer so valid), then yes I'd expect them all to be treated the same, and that would be to accept the ticket.

You may see NRES as the railway but they are a provate company,

National Rail is just a brand name for ATOC, of which Northern are a member.

I agree to the passengers it doesnt look like that but in stark reality they are, if NRES has made a mistake fhen fair enough tell us and we can report it however we have to do whats right

And what's right in this case is to accept the ticket, surely?

 

[Anvil1984]

Put this way if the TOCs put out the right train times and some eejit at NRES decides to put Mondays train times on a Sunday then its NRES's fault, if a passenger misses the last train or a connection die to a fault of NRES they foot the bill not the TOC (I know I used to work for NRES when they were over here)

If a passenger gets on with a ticket like this and it wasnt valid but there was potential for an honest mistake then first occasion I will tell passengers look thats thats not valid, you need this in future (i.e on the Man Vic line where people are splitting concessionary tickets at Walsden when I dont stop there), but if I come across them a second time then I'll charge as I have given them the correct information

IfI have to sell a ticket as they don't already hold one I will sell the ticketas per my rules, if they say NRES has said its £x.xx, I'll apologise, say thats incorrect and charge the correct fare as per the machine. Therefore no other passenger can say I've overcharged them.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Just to Yorkies breakdown of my post, I'm not talking about the particular journey in question but in general. If NRES hasa different price on the website than on my machine should I be expected to charge the NRES price or what I' told too. If I have a busy train and I charge 1 person £2.60 for a fare because they say someone has made a mistake then go to charge someone £3.60 for same ticket.

If NRES is right then they are right and we should obey that but in general if they are wrong I don't see why the on-board staff should try and rectify it and then spend every day or so checking websites making phonecals to see if its been put right (I remember waiting months just yo get a Huddersfield - Glasgow 10p ticket removed)

 

[OwlMan]

According to last years National Timetable (and the routeing guide says use to NRT)
The distances are as follows
Leeds to Niormanton 14.25 miles (no distance is given for avoiding Castleford)
Normanton to Wakefield Kirkgate 3 miles
Kirkgate to Westgate 1 mile
Wakefield to Leeds 10 miles

So Normanton to Ledds direct is 14.25 miles
Normanton - Leeds via Wakefield 14 miles

So the Wakefield route is the shortest according to the NRT


peter

 

[Anvil1984]

National Rail Enquires Service are not a brand name for National Riail or ATOC, they are a franchised company, who the current franchise is I don't know but they were run by Ventura and ClientLogic when I left

 

[Max]

Put this way if the TOCs put out the right train times and some eejit at NRES decides to put Mondays train times on a Sunday then its NRES's fault, if a passenger misses the last train or a connection die to a fault of NRES they foot the bill not the TOC (I know I used to work for NRES when they were over here)

I think this is fair, but surely under condition 43 of the NRCOC, since NRES can definitely be classed as a 'Rail Service Company', the railways as a whole have to take responsibility for issues like this:

43. Help from Train Companies if you are stranded
If disruption caused by circumstances within the control of a Train Company or a Rail
Service Company leaves you stranded before you have reached your destination and the
Train Company whose trains you are entitled to use is unable to get you to that destination
by other means, any Train Company which is in a position to help will, if it reasonably can,
either arrange to get you to that destination, or provide overnight accommodation for you.

It's fair enough if the TOC in question wants to claim any expenses back from NRES, but this should be dealt with behind closed doors. Far too often the buck is passed from company to company in front of the passenger, when it should be sorted out behind the scenes. It appears very unprofessional to the average traveller.

 

[Anvil1984]

According to last years National Timetable (and the routeing guide says use to NRT)
The distances are as follows
Leeds to Niormanton 14.25 miles (no distance is given for avoiding Castleford)
Normanton to Wakefield Kirkgate 3 miles
Kirkgate to Westgate 1 mile
Wakefield to Leeds 10 miles

So Normanton to Ledds direct is 14.25 miles
Normanton - Leeds via Wakefield 14 miles

So the Wakefield route is the shortest according to the NRT


peter

The ones that need to be considered are

Normanton - Leeds direct (then discount it as only 2 trains go that way)
Normanton - Wakefield Kirkgate, Kirkgate - Castleford -- Leeds
Normaton - Wakefiled Kirkgate, Wakefield Kirkgate - Leeds (direct)

 

[yorkie]

The ones that need to be considered are

Normanton - Leeds direct (then discount it as only 2 trains go that way)

This isn't "the shortest distance from the origin to the destination over which a regular scheduled passenger train service operates." otherwise you could say that Stockport to Stalybridge isn't valid via Manchester because of a weekly direct train. Twice a day isn't "regular" to a reasonable person, surely, when there is a regular hourly service via Castleford!

 

[Anvil1984]

It's fair enough if the TOC in question wants to claim any expenses back from NRES, but this should be dealt with behind closed doors. Far too often the buck is passed from company to company in front of the passenger, when it should be sorted out behind the scenes. It appears very unprofessional to the average traveller.

Thats fair enough in my eyes too, but its usually better for the passenger to go direct to NRES than to Northern Rail, uising the TOC analogy if FGW stuff up, would East Coast be expected to deal with it. If the guard is at fault then yes he should be dealt with as this case may show but if the guard in other occasions is 100% right I feel that he should be allowed to charge correct fare (if the ticket hasn't already been sold) and let the back room people deal with it, its easy to show discretion when the passenger already has the ticket as you can just have a quiet couple of words but I'm making the transaction I will always sell what I am sure is correct ticket
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

This isn't "the shortest distance from the origin to the destination over which a regular scheduled passenger train service operates." otherwise you could say that Stockport to Stalybridge isn't valid via Manchester because of a weekly direct train. Twice a day isn't "regular" to a reasonable person, surely, when there is a regular hourly service via Castleford!

Thats why I said discount it!!!!

 

[yorkie]

Thats why I said discount it!!!!

Sorry - I understand now! So, we're in agreement!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

According to last years National Timetable (and the routeing guide says use to NRT)
The distances are as follows
Leeds to Niormanton 14.25 miles (no distance is given for avoiding Castleford)
Normanton to Wakefield Kirkgate 3 miles
Kirkgate to Westgate 1 mile
Wakefield to Leeds 10 miles

So Normanton to Ledds direct is 14.25 miles
Normanton - Leeds via Wakefield 14 miles

So the Wakefield route is the shortest according to the NRT


peter

Ah, ok, I hadn't considered that via Outwood may be shorter than via Woodlesford. In which case the route taken (via Kirkgate and Woodlesford) has to be no more than 3 miles longer than via Outwood (in other words it has to be no greater than 17 miles) but that's okay because it is less than 17 miles.

 

[sheff1]

I disagree with that, should guards be expected to know every NRES failing in memory / carry a list / take the passenger word there is a mistake. Why should the TOC's carry the can for another companies mistake. Proper process should be correct charge levied and complaint to NRES who pay back

Why should the passenger carry the can for the conductors mistake ? The correct charge wasn't levied - it had already been paid & extra payment was demanded incorrectly.

 

[AeroSpace]

So:
- the online booking engines say the route is valid
- the guards claim it is invalid
- and definitive guide to validity is completely unclear (I can't find anything to suggest one way or another whether you are allowed to double back on routes whose total length is not more than three miles more than the shortest length) ?

This is absolutely braindead.

Even without considering that there is no approved source of distance information!