Northern City Line not fit for purpose

[Hadders]

Externally the 313s are awful but inside they’re ok.

 

[swt_passenger]

I travelled on it for the first time today, I was amazed to see the Network SE signage in the platforms! It shocks me that this wasn't incorporated into Crossrail, as Crossrail has a shaft at Moorgate!
I think it suffers from limited usage, due to it's dead-end nature. If it had been scoped into Crossrail, there could have been an island platform at Moorgate, a linkup before Liverpool St or even a regular junction in the tunnel. 717 units could have run in, changed back to overhead AC at Liverpool St, run out to Abbey Wood, back on the DC and then onto a connection with CTRL. It amazes me that it's currently crippled as it runs to a dead stop at Moorgate! It's obvious that it's damaging when you look at the state of the stations. They can't justify the upgrade.

In a perfect world, I'd link it with Crossrail by means of parallel platform at Liverpool St (including an actual junction, even if not used (the railway doesn't like this kind of forward planning)), get it under the Thames and link it with the Southern Region with a Surrey Quays, Erith to Ebbsfleet connection. Without it, it's a wasted opportunity.

Completely unaffordable within the Crossrail budget, and belongs on the speculation thread.

 

[ijmad]

Something I haven't worked out is if any additional cross-passages or link corridors have been added to/from the NCL at Moorgate as part of the Crossrail works. We have a new link from the Northern Line to the CTRL ticket hall, but I think from the NCL you'll still need to take two narrow escalators to escape, am I right?

I don't think linking the NCL up with anything would have a good cost benefit ratio given the problematic location of the tunnels vs Crossrail and the BoE, but it's really not a bad interchange for passengers terminating there, especially with Crossrail beckoning, you have that, the SSL, Northern Line and Moorgate itself is easily walkable from many of the new towers on Bishopsgate, Aldgate, and the City itself.

Could just do with a bit of a spruce up and some escalator maintenance. Installing something like ETCS (maybe even full ATO) would probably go a long way to making those two platforms cope with more trains, but can the cross passages and exits from them at Moorgate cope with more passengers is more the question in my mind.

 

[DPWH]

Oh come on, some of the most fun comments in these threads are the utterly wild speculations.

 

[387star]

They open doors automatically like the core?

 

[sprunt]

Something I haven't worked out is if any additional cross-passages or link corridors have been added to/from the NCL at Moorgate as part of the Crossrail works. We have a new link from the Northern Line to the CTRL ticket hall, but I think from the NCL you'll still need to take two narrow escalators to escape, am I right?

I think there are covered up Elizabeth Line signs on the NCL platforms directing people up the Northern Line escalators to use the link from there. It's a shame Crossrail didn't involve a wider rebuild, or at least a spruce-up of the station - it's very crowded in the morning peak now, and the SSL platforms are very leaky.

 

[Fred26]

I think there are covered up Elizabeth Line signs on the NCL platforms directing people up the Northern Line escalators to use the link from there. It's a shame Crossrail didn't involve a wider rebuild, or at least a spruce-up of the station - it's very crowded in the morning peak now, and the SSL platforms are very leaky.

Those signs aren't yet in place on the NCL.
I don't know if the signs will point NCL passengers upstairs to the 'main' Crossrail entrance, or downstairs to the Northern Line and through the tunnel to Crossrail that way.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have seen trains busy even off peak on this line. I think the state of the 313s hasn't helped matters but then again they have been good workhorses for the route now the 717s should help with their extra capacity. The route certainly can justify upgrades and improved services especially evenings and weekends should encourage more usage.

Agreed, it feels very old fashioned - charming for an enthusiast, but just a bit rubbish for a commuter. But it's getting new rolling stock, and sprucing up the stations a bit with paint and new tiles/cladding/lighting would not be prohibitively expensive.

 

[SteveOfTheStow]

I take issue with this prevailing idea amongst some forum members that a line that isn't part of London Overground and dead ends in Central London therefore must have 'limited use'. The NCL has the job of ferrying North London commuters into the City (capital C), and it does it well given the challenges it faces with life expired infrastructure and trains. It's also taken on the additional role of supporting transport into the now bustling Old Street/Shoreditch scene, which is why it was opened up at weekends. Most trains are full to crowded in the peak; there's not some huge 'suppressed demand' waiting to be unlocked. This isn't the GOBLIN; it's a radial commuter route - the only people waiting to 'discover' it are the hipsters whose blinkers mean they can't bear to live off the official Tube Map.

It needs the new trains to reduce crowding levels, it needs a deep clean and the infrastructure needs updating to be fit for the 21st century (that includes asethetics). No extensions.

 

[adamedwards]

The biggest problem to linking the NCL to other routes is the stations limit the trains to 6 cars. So linking it to another line which has longer trains would mean shortening them, which would not be a good idea. (Crossrail has 10 car as standard, for example.) In London the only lines which therefore match it for train length is are London Overground. So I don't think there is realistically any route it could join up to. Even the original builders gave up on the extension to Bank, hence the abandoned shield in the down tunnel at Moorgate beyond the buffers.

 

[edwin_m]

It's probably also limited to 20m stock, so if it ran through onto Crossrail the doors wouldn't line up with those on the platforms.

 

[Bucephalus]

Apologies in advance to commuters that have to use the NCL daily, but I think it's fine the way it is.

This evening I popped down into essex road whilst I was in London and was a little bit mesmerised. This is not sarcasm either; the whole dirty, gritty thing had a charm, just how I'd imagine the New York subway to be like. And let's face it, on the Paris Metro the NCL would be one of the nicer lines.

 

[LLivery]

Apologies in advance to commuters that have to use the NCL daily, but I think it's fine the way it is.

This evening I popped down into essex road whilst I was in London and was a little bit mesmerised. This is not sarcasm either; the whole dirty, gritty thing had a charm, just how I'd imagine the New York subway to be like. And let's face it, on the Paris Metro the NCL would be one of the nicer lines.

View attachment 53245 View attachment 53246

We're quite spoilt in London when it comes to the state of our stations. The NCL is average Parisian. That said, the stations need a good clean, lick of paint, new benches and directional signs. Keep the NSE signs; if they're are good enough for Downham Market, they're good enough for the NCL. Also, the tiles are very Berlin U-Bahn.

I take issue with this prevailing idea amongst some forum members that a line that isn't part of London Overground and dead ends in Central London therefore must have 'limited use'. The NCL has the job of ferrying North London commuters into the City (capital C), and it does it well given the challenges it faces with life expired infrastructure and trains. It's also taken on the additional role of supporting transport into the now bustling Old Street/Shoreditch scene, which is why it was opened up at weekends. Most trains are full to crowded in the peak; there's not some huge 'suppressed demand' waiting to be unlocked. This isn't the GOBLIN; it's a radial commuter route - the only people waiting to 'discover' it are the hipsters whose blinkers mean they can't bear to live off the official Tube Map.

It needs the new trains to reduce crowding levels, it needs a deep clean and the infrastructure needs updating to be fit for the 21st century (that includes asethetics). No extensions.

Indeed, the NCL can appear to be a ghost line at certain times, but Moorgate's NR usage alone is 11 mil. It just needs TLC.

 

[Bletchleyite]

We're quite spoilt in London when it comes to the state of our stations. The NCL is average Parisian. That said, the stations need a good clean, lick of paint, new benches and directional signs. Keep the NSE signs; if they're are good enough for Downham Market, they're good enough for the NCL. Also, the tiles are very Berlin U-Bahn.

It does have somewhat of the feel of a German U-Bahn or S-Bahn - a bit dated, a bit quiet when no train is present (due to no escalators) and a bit grubby but generally functional.

 

[jellybaby]

Moorgate seems to be on fire...

Reports of a fire alarm activation on platform 9 at Moorgate has required suspension of the service to the station. A smouldering sleeper has been identified as the cause of the alarm and the fire brigade are currently en route to the station.

 

[whoosh]

Moorgate seems to be on fire...

Reports of a fire alarm activation on platform 9 at Moorgate has required suspension of the service to the station. A smouldering sleeper has been identified as the cause of the alarm and the fire brigade are currently en route to the station.

Is that double figures for the amount of fires there have been down there in the last 12 months? Or still just in single figures?

 

[Mercurii]

I had the misfortune of having to use the Hertford branch for 7 years.
I’ve travelled on packed trains where rain came through the roof of carriages, trains that where freezing cold north of Drayton Park and boiling once in tunnel. Delayed, cancelled or rerouted to Kings Cross on a daily basis. It’s a vile line in its present incarnation.
New trains are coming, true, but the whole line needs urgent investment and quite frankly a change of ownership.
I second those that already suggested it, that it would benefit from having a single line running along it in metro or overground style and frequency; Moorgate to Hertford North and under TfL management.

 

[Hadders]

I had the misfortune of having to use the Hertford branch for 7 years.
I’ve travelled on packed trains where rain came through the roof of carriages, trains that where freezing cold north of Drayton Park and boiling once in tunnel. Delayed, cancelled or rerouted to Kings Cross on a daily basis. It’s a vile line in its present incarnation.
New trains are coming, true, but the whole line needs urgent investment and quite frankly a change of ownership.
I second those that already suggested it, that it would benefit from having a single line running along it in metro or overground style and frequency; Moorgate to Hertford North and under TfL management.

What about stations on the Welwyn route like welham Green, Brookmans Park, Hadley Wood, New Barnet, Oakleigh Park etc.

 

[jon0844]

I am pretty certain that after predicting it for goodness knows how long, current circumstances (most notably recent events with the timetabling AND the introduction of new trains) means that in the next franchise/contract, TfL are sure to take over the inner suburban lines [with even a tiny chance of it happening before then, but I doubt it as TfL isn't swimming in cash].

I can't see them only taking the Hertford Loop route for the very reason mentioned above - what happens to the smaller stations on the ECML route? Would GN keep some 717s and run these in to Moorgate as GN? Or run them into King's Cross?

I suppose it COULD be possible to do the latter if fewer trains will terminate at King's Cross on TL/GN because they're now going through the core, but I can't see it myself. Would be quite nice though, as it gives people the chance to board (albeit slower) trains at King's Cross instead of standing underground at St Pancras. Hey, maybe this should happen!!

The new trains certainly shouldn't leak, and hopefully the HVAC system will make it a lot more pleasant all year around. There are suggestions that the tunnels and track will be given a good clean at some point between now and the full introduction, partly because I'm sure the filters for the air conditioning will quickly suffer otherwise, but also the issue of keeping white trains clean. Oh, and reducing fires too!

 

[SteveOfTheStow]

I don't think you can take one without the other - Welwyn and Hertford will have to come as a package. That TfL-managed trains are soon to run as far as Reading means it should be less controversial than otherwise could have been, especially as the Moorgate route clearly needs some TLC (which TfL could provide) and GTR have annoyed absolutely everyone, to put it mildly, making TfL management look an attractive option.

Eventually though I'd expect the New Southgate branch of Crossrail 2 (yep, talking a long while here) to take over the majority of Welwyn inners, because why stop trains at New Southgate? Peak time workings to Moorgate could be retained like will happen with Crossrail to Liverpool Street.

 

[tasky]

For what's it's worth, the Stevenage and WGC routes were both marked as 'inner suburban services' for possible takeover on this TfL-commissioned report into the matter from 2011

http://cdn.londonreconnections.com/...esponsibility-for-Rail-Services-in-London.pdf

 

[Mark J]

You can tell the Northern City Line has received little attention, or investment when it still sports heavy NSE branding at most of its stations.

 

[Mercurii]

I had the misfortune of having to use the Hertford branch for 7 years.
I’ve travelled on packed trains where rain came through the roof of carriages, trains that where freezing cold north of Drayton Park and boiling once in tunnel. Delayed, cancelled or rerouted to Kings Cross on a daily basis. It’s a vile line in its present incarnation.
New trains are coming, true, but the whole line needs urgent investment and quite frankly a change of ownership.
I second those that already suggested it, that it would benefit from having a single line running along it in metro or overground style and frequency; Moorgate to Hertford North and under TfL management.

What about stations on the Welwyn route like welham Green, Brookmans Park, Hadley Wood, New Barnet, Oakleigh Park etc.

They’d go on to Thameslink route. Once at Finsbury Park , they’d travel on canal tunnels etc.
At Highbury and Islington the trains to WGC are rearely full anyway, passengers can change at Finsbury PK if they intend to go that route.
Also let’s call it the Enfield line for simplicity could be a more frequent and local service while the WGC and beyond can concentrate on express services north of FP

 

[Hadders]

They’d go on to Thameslink route. Once at Finsbury Park , they’d travel on canal tunnels etc.
At Highbury and Islington the trains to WGC are rearely full anyway, passengers can change at Finsbury PK if they intend to go that route.
Also let’s call it the Enfield line for simplicity could be a more frequent and local service while the WGC and beyond can concentrate on express services north of FP

There aren’t sufficient paths to run any more services through the Canal Tunnels and through the core. They’re supposed to run 24 trains per hour as it is and they can’t even do that.

 

[Clip]

I don't think you can take one without the other - Welwyn and Hertford will have to come as a package. That TfL-managed trains are soon to run as far as Reading means it should be less controversial than otherwise could have been, especially as the Moorgate route clearly needs some TLC (which TfL could provide) and GTR have annoyed absolutely everyone, to put it mildly, making TfL management look an attractive option.

Eventually though I'd expect the New Southgate branch of Crossrail 2 (yep, talking a long while here) to take over the majority of Welwyn inners, because why stop trains at New Southgate? Peak time workings to Moorgate could be retained like will happen with Crossrail to Liverpool Street.

Where do TfL find the money to do this though - theyre pretty much skint now and they have had their grant removed and are making cuts to buses and so on and so forth and without a fare rise they wont be making money to invest in such tidying up

 

[ijmad]

Where do TfL find the money to do this though - theyre pretty much skint now and they have had their grant removed and are making cuts to buses and so on and so forth and without a fare rise they wont be making money to invest in such tidying up

Running rail franchises is usually a profitable endeavour... that's why companies bid for these things in the first place.

 

[jon0844]

Running rail franchises is usually a profitable endeavour... that's why companies bid for these things in the first place.

Yes, I can't imagine this being a loss making route! And the new trains will just need some new vinyls, seat covers and posters. The platforms would be renovated over time, perhaps with temporary signs to begin with.

Of course there are logistical issues like the transfer of drivers and so on, but pretty insignificant in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Royston Vasey]

Apologies in advance to commuters that have to use the NCL daily, but I think it's fine the way it is.

This evening I popped down into essex road whilst I was in London and was a little bit mesmerised. This is not sarcasm either; the whole dirty, gritty thing had a charm, just how I'd imagine the New York subway to be like. And let's face it, on the Paris Metro the NCL would be one of the nicer lines.

View attachment 53245 View attachment 53246

It's a good analogy having been a daily user of the NY Subway for a number of years and having used the NCL a few times recently when appointments in the City required it. General decay such as peeling paint, streams of water filled with rubbish, faded and dirty signage, dim lighting and trails of dirt and grime around the walls. And of course old rattly but full size trains. I rather enjoyed the novelty! It's the only part of our network I've seen with such a low standard of maintenance and cosmetic upkeep but in New York and Paris it's very commonplace

 

[ijmad]

Yes, I can't imagine this being a loss making route! And the new trains will just need some new vinyls, seat covers and posters. The platforms would be renovated over time, perhaps with temporary signs to begin with.

Of course there are logistical issues like the transfer of drivers and so on, but pretty insignificant in the grand scheme of things.

Yeah, and since TfL have no shareholders, the money usually earmarked for those shareholders goes back in to TfL's account to make small improvements like deep cleaning of stations that other operators just won't do.

Plus, I'm sure TfL have considerable economies of scale across all their operations: admin, cleaners, maintenance, signage, ticketing machines, websites, social media. I'm sure there's a huge amount of pooling that goes on across their various services which likely saves a lot of money. Although I know Govia does a similar things with GN/TL/SE/SN, it's a much smaller operation overall with many more things contracted out to other companies who want to make a profit for their piece of the pie too.

Also, just putting a route on the tube map usually corresponds with a huge increase in ridership as we've seen with the NLL, ELL and Lea Valley Overground lines, and more fares money as a result.

 

[Mercurii]

There aren’t sufficient paths to run any more services through the Canal Tunnels and through the core. They’re supposed to run 24 trains per hour as it is and they can’t even do that.

That’s just bad management of routes not a fault or impossibility of infrastructure