Northern Class 170's

[NoMorePacers]

Dodgy air-con on 158s has become a "go to" complaint for those with any interest in the running of the railway, and has become such a "railway trope" that you'll notice every time you see a 158 with the emergency hoppers open. Often, crews haven't given the system time to get going before they open the hoppers (due to inexperience, or to prevent being set upon by an angry mob of overdressed pax), which means if it wasn't broken before it definitely will be soon!

But yeah, let's just cancel trains because it's a bit warm. Clearly the lesser of two evils there...

I doubt the temperatures experienced last summer (for example) were just a "bit warm".

 

[Neptune]

Opening 158 hoppers is a last resort. Always try a circuit breaker reset first which should take around 10 minutes to kick in. If not then a full reset in the air con cupboard. If that fails then open the hoppers.

One problem I find is that the internal doors are sometimes locked open for no good reason. This totally buggers the system up as it is trying to cool the platform at each station. This can cause the air con to fail and also the door system doesn’t like resetting when de-isolated leaving the door open or reopening constantly when trying to close.

SWT 159/0 fleet had four extra hoppers added which would be a much better idea for system failures.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I doubt the temperatures experienced last summer (for example) were just a "bit warm".

No, but nobody seemed to mention the 80+% of 158s with perfectly functional aircon... nor the almost-as-frequent times when the aircon failed on other units such as 185s and HSTs.

People don't seem to dress for the weather either. If I had a pound for every time I'd seen some boomer in an overcoat complaining to a guard about being too hot last summer, I'd be several pounds richer!

 

[Spartacus]

Often, crews haven't given the system time to get going before they open the hoppers (due to inexperience, or to prevent being set upon by an angry mob of overdressed pax), which means if it wasn't broken before it definitely will be soon!

Tell me about it, as per the locked open doors mentioned as well, the number who still don't seem to realise that messing about with the hoppers and doors while the air-con's still on will only make things worse is quite incredible.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Tell me about it, as per the locked open doors mentioned as well, the number who still don't seem to realise that messing about with the hoppers and doors while the air-con's still on will only make things worse is quite incredible.

I suppose that once the 15th person in a winter coat has moaned at you to open the windows, it becomes easier to just open the damn thing rather than explaining to them all over again why the windows have locks in the first place.

For a member of rail staff, advising them to be sensible and maybe take a layer of clothing off would probably cause a social media storm and result in a meeting without tea and biscuits!

 

[superkev]

No, but nobody seemed to mention the 80+% of 158s with perfectly functional aircon... nor the almost-as-frequent times when the aircon failed on other units such as 185s and HSTs.

People don't seem to dress for the weather either. If I had a pound for every time I'd seen some boomer in an overcoat complaining to a guard about being too hot last summer, I'd be several pounds richer!

I find 80% working a/c difficult to believe.
Although admittedly I havent done a count I'd estimate around 50% of 158s passing through sowerby bridge on a warm (not hot) day last week had the emergency hoppers open. This incredibly including one 3 car with all cars open.
After some boiled alive experiences I learnt a few years ago to always use my car on warm days. Its a/c always works.
K

 

[ed1971]

I find 80% working a/c difficult to believe.
Although admittedly I havent done a count I'd estimate around 50% of 158s passing through sowerby bridge on a warm (not hot) day last week had the emergency hoppers open. This incredibly including one 3 car with all cars open.
After some boiled alive experiences I learnt a few years ago to always use my car on warm days. Its a/c always works.
K

Having read people's comments about air con on 158s and 170s, I think I prefer trains with opening windows and without any air conditioning to go wrong. This is a big issue on modern electric trains with air conditioning. There have been times where there has been a power cut and passengers have been trapped for a few hours on a train with no air conditioning or opening windows.

I travelled on a 170 a couple of weeks ago on a Huddersfield to Leeds service (when TPE hired a 170 from Northern). The air con was working, but it made me feel a bit breathless which soon subsided when I got off the train at Leeds. I gather that air conditioning spreads viruses and germs on planes and I guess it could do so on trains too if not maintained properly. Countless times I have seen people coughing on buses and trains without covering up their mouths. At least where there are opening windows, you can open them to let in some fresh air.

I have been told that on a car with air conditioning to periodically put disinfectant on the air con dash air vent to kill any bugs.

 

[Tractor37]

We've had 142/144/150/153/158 on the Selby-Leeds route for the last few years until January when we got 170s. But then at the May timetable change we're back to 142/144 again. I got used to the space, comfort and ride of the 170 - now I've got a bad back from being back on Pacers

This morning just a two carriage set - 142085 (I think). People got left on the platfrom at Crossgates. Sigh...

Unit was 142089. The only reason I left people behind was because the previous York to Leeds service was cancelled from York so from Micklefield and East Garforth there was two trains worth of local passengers.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Having read people's comments about air con on 158s and 170s, I think I prefer trains with opening windows and without any air conditioning to go wrong. This is a big issue on modern electric trains with air conditioning. There have been times where there has been a power cut and passengers have been trapped for a few hours on a train with no air conditioning or opening windows.

I travelled on a 170 a couple of weeks ago on a Huddersfield to Leeds service (when TPE hired a 170 from Northern). The air con was working, but it made me feel a bit breathless which soon subsided when I got off the train at Leeds. I gather that air conditioning spreads viruses and germs on planes and I guess it could do so on trains too if not maintained properly. Countless times I have seen people coughing on buses and trains without covering up their mouths. At least where there are opening windows, you can open them to let in some fresh air.

I have been told that on a car with air conditioning to periodically put disinfectant on the air con dash air vent to kill any bugs.

On 333's the air con works quite well, once I was on one where the conductor had opened windows in just one coach which was also quite nice and pleasant.

As for electric trains some do have open able windows whilst others don't. The one's that don't I think are mainly down South. Although it currently looks like these new 331's won't!

Regarding airplanes, from my understanding they recycle air because of the pressure difference between inside and outside of the plane at altitude, a bit different to trains on the ground.

 

[Max]

Folks, just a polite reminder that this thread is for discussion about Northern 170s, not the quality or status of air conditioning on other units. Could we try and take it back on topic please?

 

[PomWombat]

Just a point of order... Harrogate isn't really Yorkshire, it's an exclave of Surrey with a sideline in selling the Disney version of Yorkshire: Betty's, Yorkshire Tea (ugh!) and overpronouncing glottal stops.

Mostly true, but the accents really aren't Surrey. But if it is Surrey, then I look forward to the day when the commute is done by class 444 instead of 144.

 

[PomWombat]

They are totally unsuited to the route due to the low top line speed and slow acceleration from the frequent stops

I can't speak for the maintenance issues caused by low speed running, or fuel/oil consumption, but the 170s must make up for the low acceleration in other areas, because they can stick to the timetable as well as the Sprinters and Pacers can. Presumably the dwell time from a mix of door size/location, and a lack of crush overcrowding. And I'd say they do far better in that regard than the 158s we had earlier in the year.

The change I've seen over the last 15 months has been marked ... but it is an experience deserved by all Northern customers. We need the new trains like yesterday. Then the 150s should be lined up for the razor factory.

 

[johnnychips]

Been on the 170s a couple of times between Sheffield and Doncaster on the Brid route and ...wow. I like 158s but these are a step up in both capacity and ambience.

 

[ben2012]

Hi are the 170s still covering leeds doncaster and if so does anyone know which diagrams

 

[Neptune]

Hi are the 170s still covering leeds doncaster and if so does anyone know which diagrams

No not since the timetable change.

 

[PomWombat]

From new timetable the Harrogate line will become exclusively 170 barring a couple of peak time 150 workings to keep Harrogate crews compliant on the type.

This far into the new timetable, I can safely say that Neptune's post has been extremely accurate. I expected a smattering of 158s, but they've very much dropped away.

 

[Harvey B]

This far into the new timetable, I can safely say that Neptune's post has been extremely accurate. I expected a smattering of 158s, but they've very much dropped away.

My question is, will the amount of 170's on that line decrease if the linespeed isn't changed to suit their needs

 

[rich r]

My question is, will the amount of 170's on that line decrease if the linespeed isn't changed to suit their needs

We'll happily have them back on the faster more open lines elsewhere in the region Going back to 142s and 144s after 5 months of 170s is almost tempting me to reconsider getting in my car and driving to Leeds each day or changing my working hours so I can use TransPennine... If we'd never had the 170s I wouldn't have known any better. But putting them on then taking them away is just mean

 

[PomWombat]

My question is, will the amount of 170's on that line decrease if the linespeed isn't changed to suit their needs

Apparently not.

The opportunity to swap to 158s was there, and expected, when they added the extra 1 tph through the day. And 158s filtered into the line a few months ago, seemingly in preparation. But now, nothing. It seems like Northern have made their choice.

I'm not convinced raising the limit 5-10mph would have much impact. On the Leeds-Harrogate section at least, the 170 seems to spend its time powering hard away from stations or uphill, or coasting downhill. Would there be much opportunity to be over 65, and under power rather than coasting? Only really at Arthington, I reckon.

 

[PomWombat]

We'll happily have them back on the faster more open lines elsewhere in the region Going back to 142s and 144s after 5 months of 170s is almost tempting me to reconsider getting in my car and driving to Leeds each day or changing my working hours so I can use TransPennine... If we'd never had the 170s I wouldn't have known any better. But putting them on then taking them away is just mean

Same feeling here. Was getting ready to use the bus instead.

It says something to be pining for a 15 year old cast off.

 

[Monkeyhead]

Yep, same here. This morning was ridiculous. Arrived at Garforth at 7.30 to find a handful of parking spaces free, so just in time (despite the old vets being left abandoned and chained off). 7.43 train (equivalent used to be a 3 carriage 170) back to a 2 carriage 158. 7.47 from York cancelled. Arrived at Garforth with people already stood halfway down the aisle. Found refuge in the luggage store (not the overhead one!), people left behind at Cross Gates.

I know its only a 12 minute ride or so, but I'm seriously thinking of going back to the Park and Ride at Temple Green. It's a bit less convenient but half the price and less unpleasant. Maybe this is how Northern do demand management........

 

[Halifaxlad]

We'll happily have them back on the faster more open lines elsewhere in the region Going back to 142s and 144s after 5 months of 170s is almost tempting me to reconsider getting in my car and driving to Leeds each day or changing my working hours so I can use TransPennine... If we'd never had the 170s I wouldn't have known any better. But putting them on then taking them away is just mean

You're more than welcome to have them off the Harrogate Line ......................... of course once it electrified that is !

 

[Harvey B]

Apparently not.

The opportunity to swap to 158s was there, and expected, when they added the extra 1 tph through the day. And 158s filtered into the line a few months ago, seemingly in preparation. But now, nothing. It seems like Northern have made their choice.

I'm not convinced raising the limit 5-10mph would have much impact. On the Leeds-Harrogate section at least, the 170 seems to spend its time powering hard away from stations or uphill, or coasting downhill. Would there be much opportunity to be over 65, and under power rather than coasting? Only really at Arthington, I reckon.

I read on this thread that they're not really effucient in 1st gear, is that actually a problem?

 

[Halifaxlad]

Isn't the line speed limited anyway due to the 14x's ? Ive read somewhere that the signalling between Leeds & Harrogate is permitted for 75 mph.

 

[superkev]

I read on this thread that they're not really effucient in 1st gear, is that actually a problem?

It's a problem if you have to buy the vast quantity of extra fuel.
Network rail have no incentive to lift line speeds unless they can sell extra paths and it probably would not make much difference due to number of stops.
Most of Northerns network is crippled by low line speeds or/and lots of stops so I believe a regeared 75mph 170 which would accelerate faster and be much more useful.
K

 

[Harvey B]

It's a problem if you have to buy the vast quantity of extra fuel.
Network rail have no incentive to lift line speeds unless they can sell extra paths and it probably would not make much difference due to number of stops.
Most of Northerns network is crippled by low line speeds or/and lots of stops so I believe a regeared 75mph 170 which would accelerate faster and be much more useful.
K

I don't see the class 170's staying on that line after the December timetable change unless the linespeed changes

 

[darloscott]

This far into the new timetable, I can safely say that Neptune's post has been extremely accurate. I expected a smattering of 158s, but they've very much dropped away.

There is still a few 158 operated services - but you'd have to be out at odd hours to catch them!
0605 Leeds-York is booked a 3-car 158 (works onto York-Blackpool, eventually, after a trip to Selby & Leeds)
2244 York-Leeds is booked a 2-car 158 (works off Leeds-Nott/Lincoln, with the 2024 Leeds-York via Garforth)

 

[170TurboFan]

I don't see the class 170's staying on that line after the December timetable change unless the linespeed changes

The only time I have ever heard a 170 go out of 1st gear was back home on the GEML with Anglia, they only just make it to 100 before they have to start slowing for the next stop, the 172 transmission would have been better on them. Might be a possible change. I don't know if Porterbrook's hybrid plan might work for the 170s better. Been on the Harrogate Line today, all units were 170s with 7 required form what I have gathered to run the service. Today I had 170457 and 474 Running the Leeds - Harrogate fast. 170477, 473 and 456 running Leeds - York via Harrogate along with 170454 and 478 Running Leeds - Knaresborough.

 

[PomWombat]

There is still a few 158 operated services - but you'd have to be out at odd hours to catch them!

Very odd hours indeed! My kneecaps are quite happy to stick with the 170s for now...

 

[Bletchleyite]

The only time I have ever heard a 170 go out of 1st gear was back home on the GEML with Anglia, they only just make it to 100 before they have to start slowing for the next stop, the 172 transmission would have been better on them.

They'd have been better using tarted-up 170s and 158s for Northern Connect and ordering new for local stopping services, i.e. directly replace the Pacers with new in the manner of Greater Anglia.