Northern Class 185 Diagrams

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Bovverboy

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1840 BPN-MIA & 2029 return both cancelled today. Former for reason of 'Late arrival of a crew from an inbound service' and latter 'Late arrival of an inbound service'. I couldn't identify a pre-1840 arrival at BPN which could have been considered 'late'.

The 350 working the 1417 EDB-MIA (I can't remember the actual unit number, but I did see it passing Deansgate) didn't form the 1800 MIA-EDB, as it normally would, despite an on-time arrival at MIA. Instead the 1800 was cancelled MIA-MAN and 185125 picked up service from MAN, leaving c.5 minutes late despite having arrived from Ardwick (presumably) in time for a punctual departure. Waiting for the crew to arrive from MIA?

On Tuesdays, Wednesdays, and Thursdays there should be two 350s spare at Ardwick, so if there weren't any this evening that doesn't bode well for the weekend.
 
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Des Iroman

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350401 with smashed windscreen, was dumped at the Airport for later tripping back to Ardwick - driver pass to Piccadilly to pick up 125 to form 1S83.
 

janb

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1840 BPN-MIA & 2029 return both cancelled today. Former for reason of 'Late arrival of a crew from an inbound service' and latter 'Late arrival of an inbound service'. I couldn't identify a pre-1840 arrival at BPN which could have been considered 'late'.

1529 MIA-BPN is the train referenced in the delay attribution. I'm no expert on diagrams etc but basically the lack of a driver was the reason given for a delay on that service, and also the cancellation of the later 2 services.
 

Bovverboy

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Originally Posted by Bovverboy
The 350 working the 1417 EDB-MIA (I can't remember the actual unit number, but I did see it passing Deansgate) didn't form the 1800 MIA-EDB, as it normally would, despite an on-time arrival at MIA. Instead the 1800 was cancelled MIA-MAN and 185125 picked up service from MAN, leaving c.5 minutes late despite having arrived from Ardwick (presumably) in time for a punctual departure. Waiting for the crew to arrive from MIA?

185125 worked back this morning as 1M91, 0615 EDB-MIA. It was then replaced by 350404, presumably at the Airport - it looks as though the 350 arrived as 5S46, 0927 XRK (Ardwick Siemens) - MIA. There is no indication on RTT, however, of what then happened to 185125.

350401 with smashed windscreen, was dumped at the Airport for later tripping back to Ardwick

Presumably taken back to Ardwick as part of 5W91, 1950 MIA-XRK - which usually comprises the unit off the 1612 EDB-MIA, arr MIA 1947.

driver pass to Piccadilly to pick up 125 to form 1S83.

Did he travel by 2F81, 1803 MIA-SOP? I didn't notice a TPE driver alight from it, but I wasn't really watching. I did notice, however, that it came fully into platform 14B (while 185125 was still in 14), and loaded passengers there, which is most unusual, although not completely unknown.

Originally Posted by DanTrainMan185
I know this relates mainly to the Blackpool to Manchester services but what is normally booked to work the 0757 Liverpool to Blackpool on a Monday? (think headcode is 2N72)

Originally Posted by Greybeard33
Sorry, I do not know. From RTT, this service is pathed as a Sprinter. The diagram appears to originate from Stockport CMD and move on to Buxton services later in the day (which rules out Pacers), ending up at Newton Heath. So I would hazard a guess it is booked as a double 150 - but I stand to be corrected.

Correct it's booked a Class 150 comes off 0605 Stockport-Lime St then does 0757 to Blackpool then 1256 to Hazel Grove

Whatever it might be booked for, the 0605 was a 156 this morning - 156488, which seems to have featured disproportionately on this forum in recent days. Loop & Link was correct in asserting that it wouldn't later appear on the 0956 BPN-HAZ (as would be presumed by reference to RTT), but it didn't appear on the 1256 either. The next time I saw it was as half of the 1440 BPN-MIA, paired with 156452 - which, earlier in the day had been paired with 156471 on the same duty.

I think we can probably conclude that if RTT indicates that a train will arrive in platform such-and-such at BPN at such-and-such a time, and will depart from the same platform an amount of time later, then a train will probably depart from somewhere, but it won't necessarily be the same train, or the same platform.

P.S. I travelled on the 1440 ex-BPN from Salford Crescent to Picc. I'm pretty sure that Alex Hynes travelled from Ox Road to Picc.

Originally Posted by Bovverboy
1840 BPN-MIA & 2029 return both cancelled today. Former for reason of 'Late arrival of a crew from an inbound service' and latter 'Late arrival of an inbound service'. I couldn't identify a pre-1840 arrival at BPN which could have been considered 'late'.

1529 MIA-BPN is the train referenced in the delay attribution. I'm no expert on diagrams etc but basically the lack of a driver was the reason given for a delay on that service, and also the cancellation of the later 2 services.

The 1529 seemed to be doing okay as far as Oxford Road, where it stood for 13 minutes. That was presumably where there should have been a driver, but wasn't.
There's no obvious clue as to what happened after that.
 
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Philip

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Are the remaining 185s on the Bolton corridor still set to continue these workings up to December 2017? Or is it likely all diagrams will be worked by Sprinters before long?
 

Bovverboy

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156427+156468 did the 12:51 Windermere to Preston today.

Previously stated on a different thread that Staveley platform could only just accommodate a 185. Can it accommodate a double 156?
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=2609866&postcount=331

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New post

We've mentioned before that not all train movements appear on Realtime Trains. Well, here's an example of the Train Movements Feed (the source of information for RTT, in this context) showing completely false information. On each of the evenings 1-4 August engineering work was scheduled to take place at various points on the Chat Moss line. As far as the section Parkside Junction to Ordsall Lane Junction was concerned, the last trains permitted through were generally 1M94 (2014 TP EDB-MIA) - due to pass Parkside Junction at 2307) - and 1D48 (2314 AW MAN-CTR) - due to pass Ordsall Lane Junction 2320. I say 'generally', since on 4/8 the 5H00 VT 2303 PRE-Longsight ECS (2324 at Parkside Junction) was permitted to traverse the section - on 1-3/8 it had been diverted via Crewe.
That left the following trains needing to be diverted or cancelled.
1U86 2245 NT BPN-MIA - diverted between Wigan North Western and Ordsall Lane Junction, presumably via Atherton
(M-W) 5H00 - 2303 VT PRE-Longsight - diverted via Crewe
2J26 2319 NT LIV-MCV - cancelled throughout, replaced by a coach
1N77 2330 NT MIA-BPN - diverted between Ordsall Lane Junction and Wigan North Western, presumably via Atherton
(M/W) 5K76 2350 AW MAN-Crewe C.S. - 1/8 diverted via Styal/Wilmslow, 3/8 cancelled.

In respect of all the above, except 1U86 and 1N77, the diversion was covered by a 'variation' - VAR on RTT. 1U86 and 1N77, however, were treated as an impromptu change - i.e. the route shown on RTT was as normal, but without recorded passing times on the omitted section.

On each of the evenings 1-4 August I was within sight and sound of the Chat Moss line at the relevant times, and can tell you that there is no way that either 1U86 or 1N77 traversed the route. Amazing, therefore, that 1N77 should be recorded passing Astley at 2357, on each of 1/8 & 2/8..
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y22461/2016/08/02/advanced

2F25, 2309 NT MCV-LIV, was also cancelled and replaced by a coach, but, had it been running, it would have preceded 1D48.

5K76 is an interesting working, since it is scheduled to travel by different routes on different nights of the week, presumably for the purpose of drivers retaining route knowledge. On MW it is scheduled Chat Moss/Warrington Bank Quay, TTh Stockport/Stoke, and F Styal/Wilmslow.
On 1/8 the official diversion was Stockport/Stoke, but, as stated above, it appears to have actually gone Styal/Wilmslow. 2/8, presumably because it was 11L at KDG (Kidsgrove), it was reversed there and the section KDG-Stoke-KDG omitted. Route knowledge refresher deferred to another time! 3/8 and 4/8 5K76 was cancelled, since the preceding 1W76 (2017 CDF-MAN) was terminated at Crewe. 5/8 it was cancelled at Cardiff.
 
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Thomas6187

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On each of the evenings 1-4 August I was within sight and sound of the Chat Moss line at the relevant times, and can tell you that there is no way that either 1U86 or 1N77 traversed the route. Amazing, therefore, that 1N77 should be recorded passing Astley at 2357, on each of 1/8 & 2/8..

All these trains went via Westhoughton and Bolton. The time input at Astley is a mistake

On 1/8 the official diversion was Stockport/Stoke, but, as stated above, it appears to have actually gone Styal/Wilmslow.

It went via Styal/Wilmslow due to a Person Hit By Train at Macclesfield
 
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Bovverboy

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All these trains went via Westhoughton and Bolton. The time input at Astley is a mistake

Is there a reason why diverted trains go Westhoughton/Bolton, rather than Atherton? The former must be a greater distance, surely - is the line speed significantly higher?
 

Philip

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Is it likely to continue that way to December 2017? I read on here a couple of months back that ARN were looking at replacing the remaining 185 diagrams with Sprinters.
 

Greybeard33

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Is it likely to continue that way to December 2017? I read on here a couple of months back that ARN were looking at replacing the remaining 185 diagrams with Sprinters.

RTT coverage extends 90 days ahead, so currently almost to the end of November. If there are to be any further changes this year, I would expect them to be folded into the December timetable change.
 

Bovverboy

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RTT coverage extends 90 days ahead, so currently almost to the end of November.

Yes, but changes only need to be publicised twelve weeks in advance, so it's possible to consult RTT in respect of a particular day within the first six days after its appearance and be led astray, as I've been a couple of times recently.
 

Greybeard33

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Yes, but changes only need to be publicised twelve weeks in advance, so it's possible to consult RTT in respect of a particular day within the first six days after its appearance and be led astray, as I've been a couple of times recently.
And indeed some of the July changes were finalised much less than 12 weeks in advance, as discussed earlier in the thread.

If you want to avoid being led astray in future, and have time to spare, you could monitor the online Working Timetable (WTT) for any changes. The services that are the subject of this thread are included in Tables CE01, MADELEY TO BALSHAW LANE; CE02, BALSHAW LANE TO GRETNA JN; CE05, CARNFORTH NORTH JN TO CARLISLE via BARROW-IN-FURNESS; CL01, MANCHESTER VICTORIA & CASTLEFIELD JN TO BOLTON, EUXTON JN, WIGAN, KIRKBY & SOUTHPORT; CL02, ORDSALL LANE JN & SPRINGS BRANCH JN TO LIVERPOOL LIME STREET; and CM02, STOCKPORT & MANCHESTER AIRPORT TO MANCHESTER PICCADILLY & CASTLEFIELD JN.

The documents are heavy going, though, and as far as I can see they have no revision record/changelog, nor are the pages dated. But there is a "Dates Of Operation" field in the table header, which shows when individual workings change within the 6 month range of the timetable.

Of course, STP, VSTP and VAR changes are not in the WTT.
 

ValleyLines142

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Tomorrow I'll be on the 1346 Manchester to Blackpool and I've been given a seat reservation, so my guess is that I will have a 185! Here's hoping it's not a dud 185!
 

Bungle965

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Tomorrow I'll be on the 1346 Manchester to Blackpool and I've been given a seat reservation, so my guess is that I will have a 185! Here's hoping it's not a dud 185!

The 1346 is indeed a 185, in fact it is a pair of them. One portion (the front) continuing onto Blackpool North. While the rear portion of the train will detach and terminate at Preston.
Sam
 

HMS Ark Royal

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Is it possible to get the 185 runs added to the Northern section of Frequently Requested Diagrams? I have tried PMing SprinterMan but I keep getting an unauthorised message
 

janb

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Diagram 4:
1N33 1441 BIF-MIA 1717 (with 6 from PRE)

Diagram 6:
1U71 1540 BPN-MIA 1717 (with 4 from PRE)

Can any of our diagram gurus confirm that this continues to join at PRE for the December timetable? Journey Planner shows that Barrow service as a change at Preston for stations to Manchester, however it wouldn't be the first time that this train has shown incorrectly in this fashion prior to a timetable change.
 

PHILIPE

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Is it possible to get the 185 runs added to the Northern section of Frequently Requested Diagrams? I have tried PMing SprinterMan but I keep getting an unauthorised message

I believe somebody has to provide them for Sprinter Man in the first place.
 

darloscott

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Can any of our diagram gurus confirm that this continues to join at PRE for the December timetable? Journey Planner shows that Barrow service as a change at Preston for stations to Manchester, however it wouldn't be the first time that this train has shown incorrectly in this fashion prior to a timetable change.

Certainly looks like it does as it splits again when it gets back to Preston at 1837, with one going off to Blackpool as 1N68 and one to Barrow as 1C56
 

Greybeard33

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It does continue to join at Preston. Hope this helps :) Splits again on the return for BPN and BIF but even diagrams don't show it as a 'through' service

There is a similar "glitch" in the new timetable where these same two 185s join at Preston for their previous run to the Airport. Journey planners now purport to show that Manchester/Airport passengers have to make a 10 minute same platform change at Preston from the 0736 Blackpool North to Preston (1N22) to the 0645 Barrow to Airport (1U56), which actually form the front and rear portions of the same train. For both this and the afternoon join, the new WTT no longer shows the lead portion continuing to the Airport, although there is no change to timings or platform numbers and the Preston arrival time of the trailing portion still has a "U" to indicate that it attaches a unit.

Hopefully the timetable will soon be corrected, so that passengers are not unnecessarily deterred by the prospect of a so-called "change" at Preston.
 
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Morning! Can anyone please supply the current diagrams please? Especially interested in Saturdays please, if anyone can help.
 

Greybeard33

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I am also after the current 185 diagrams (if any!) for Manchester to Blackpool.

I have not checked in detail, but I do not believe there have been any major changes since July 2016, so the Mon-Fri diagrams remain pretty much as per Post #1 of this thread.

Due to the current overnight works on the Blackpool branch, the two units that used to spend the night at Blackpool North are now stabled in Preston Croft Street Sidings. Accordingly the first and last legs of the corresponding diagrams are cut back to Preston from Blackpool North.

Other than this, there may have been minor adjustments to some of the timings, and to some of the swaps to and from TPE services at Manchester Airport. As discussed earlier in the thread, these swaps can vary from day to day anyway, for operational reasons.

Northern still has four 185s overnight, two stabled at Preston and two at Barrow, dropping to three between about 0630 and 1830. Due to the swaps, only two units (Diagrams 2 & 6) stay with Northern all day, with the other five diagrams consisting of a combination of Northern and TPE services.
 

Greybeard33

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Now that provisional timetable information is becoming available for December 2017, it appears that Northern will be continuing to sub-lease 185s until the May 2018 timetable change. However, there are some changes to the Mon-Fri diagrams from those in Post #1, related to the Blackpool blockade:

Diagram 1:
(no longer includes Northern workings)

Diagram 2:
1C48 0435 Barrow-In-Furness-LANcaster 0531
2C00 0546 LAN-WinDerMere 0641
(WDM-OXeNholme shuttle)
1U63 1056 WDM-MIA 1323 (with 6 from PRE)
1N63 1329 MIA-PREston 1433 (with 6)
(one hour dwell at PRE)
1C54 1546 PRE-BIF 1703
1C76 1720 BIF-WDM 1858 (reverses at LAN)
(WDM-OXN shuttle)
1N39 2245 WDM-PRE 2342

Diagram 3:
(no longer includes Northern workings)

Diagram 4:
1U56 0648 BIF-MIA 0917 (with 6 from PRE)
1C52 0929 MIA-BIF 1205 (with 6 to PRE)
1N29 1213 BIF-LAN 1314
1C53 1320 LAN-BIF 1423
1U71 1441 BIF-MIA 1717 (with 6 from PRE)
1C56 1729 MIA-BIF 2006 (with 6 to PRE)
1N37 2015 BIF-PRE 2135
1C58 2147 PRE-BIF 2306

Diagram 5:
(deleted from 08 July 2016)

Diagram 6:
1U56 0812 PRE-MIA 0917 (with 4)
1C52 0929 MIA-PRE 1032 (with 4)
1U63 1207 PRE-MIA 1323 (with 2)
1N63 1329 MIA-PRE 1433 (with 2)
1U71 1608 PRE-MIA 1717 (with 4)
1C56 1729 MIA-PRE 1839 (with 4)
1U79 2010 PRE-MIA 2120
(then TP 1B96 2147 MIA-SHeFfield 2315)

Diagram 7:
(no longer includes Northern workings)

Diagram 8:
(TP 1B91 1826 CLE-MIA 2135)
1C59 2200 MIA-BIF 0030

Compared with the current timetable, all Blackpool workings are cut back to Preston, and the following services are withdrawn completely:
1U02 0337 BlackPool North-MIA 0502 (Diagram 1)
1U50 0447 BPN-MIA 0617 (Diagram 3)
1N52 0527 MIA-BPN 0703 (Diagram 4)
1N74 2129 MIA-BPN 2303 (Diagram 6)
1N70 1901 MIA-PRE 2000 (Diagram 7)

The following service is reduced from 6-car to 3-car:
1U79 2010 PRE-MIA 2120 (Diagram 7 portion withdrawn)

Diagram 6 spends time between workings relaxing in Preston Carriage Sidings instead of going to Blackpool and back.

Northern will still have three units all day, but only three overnight (two at Barrow, one at Preston) versus four now (two at Barrow, two at Blackpool). It appears that each unit will normally spend three days with Northern, with the rotation being TPE > Diagram 8 > Diagram 4 > Diagram 2 > Diagram 6 > TPE. However, there are opportunities for intermediate swaps at Manchester Airport, and I have not looked at what will happen at weekends.
 
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Greybeard33

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Are there any 185s running this Saturday to Blackpool?

In a journey planner, look for a direct service from Manchester Airport to Blackpool North that has first class - that will be a 185. Or in Realtime Trains, it will say timed for 100mph max, pathed as Diesel Multiple Unit, seating first & standard.
 
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