Northern Class 185 Diagrams

Discussion in 'Allocations, Diagrams & Timetables' started by Greybeard33, 23 Mar 2016.

  1. Greybeard33

    Greybeard33 Established Member

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    From RTT, it appears that, from the May 2016 timetable change, Northern will only be borrowing only 4x185s from FTPE for the Blackpool/Barrow/Windermere services it is taking over, instead of the 5 units currently allocated to these services. The Northern 185 weekday diagrams appear to be as follows. These include early morning/late evening workings attached to four TP North/TP South diagrams, to enable stock rotation and overnight stabling of three units at Barrow and two at Blackpool.

    Diagram 1:
    1U02 0337 BlackPool North-Manchester International Airport 0502
    (then TP 1P06 0530 MIA-NewCastLe 0819)

    Diagram 2:
    1C48 0435 Barrow-In-Furness-LANcaster 0531
    2C00 0546 LAN-WinDerMere 0641
    (WDM-OXeNholme shuttle)
    1N27 1056 WDM-MIA 1323 (with 6 from PRE)
    1N63 1329 MIA-PREston 1433 (with 6)
    (one hour dwell at PRE)
    1C54 1546 PRE-BIF 1703
    1C76 1720 BIF-WDM 1858 (reverses at LAN)
    (WDM-OXN shuttle)
    1N39 2245 WDM-BPN 0016 (reverses at PRE)

    Diagram 3:
    1U50 0447 BPN-MIA 0617
    (then TP 1P10 0634 MIA-MiddlesBRough 0912)

    Diagram 4:
    (TP 1P03 0252 YoRK-MIA 0515)
    1N52 0527 MIA-BPN 0703
    1N22 0736 BPN-MIA 0917 (with 6 from PRE)
    1C52 0929 MIA-BIF 1205 (with 6 to PRE)
    1N29 1213 BIF-LAN 1314
    1C53 1320 LAN-BIF 1423
    1N33 1441 BIF-MIA 1717 (with 6 from PRE)
    1C56 1729 MIA-BIF 2006 (with 6 to PRE)
    1N37 2015 BIF-PRE 2135
    1C58 2147 PRE-BIF 2306

    Diagram 5 (until 08 July 2016):
    1C49 0615 BIF-LAN 0718
    1C50 0733 LAN-BIF 0838
    1N25 0850 BIF-PRE 1007
    1C72 1029 PRE-WDM 1141
    (WDM-OXN shuttle)
    1N36 1803 WDM-PRE 1910
    1C57 2008 PRE-BIF 2127

    Diagram 6:
    1U56 0648 BIF-MIA 0917 (with 4 from PRE)
    1N58 0929 MIA-BPN 1103 (with 4 to PRE)
    1U63 1140 BPN-MIA 1323 (with 2 from PRE)
    1N63 1329 MIA-BPN 1502 (with 2 to PRE)
    1U71 1540 BPN-MIA 1717 (with 4 from PRE)
    1N68 1729 MIA-BPN 1911 (with 4 to PRE)
    1U79 1944 BPN-MIA 2120 (with 7 from PRE)
    1N74 2129 MIA-BPN 2303

    Diagram 7:
    (TP 1B85 1526 CLEethorpes-MIA 1826)
    1N70 1900 MIA-PRE 2000
    1U79 2010 PRE-MIA 2120 (with 6)
    (then TP 1B96 2147 MIA-SheFfielD 2315)

    Diagram 8:
    (TP 1B91 1826 CLE-MIA 2135)
    1C59 2200 MIA-BIF 0030

    The following post detailed the current 185 diagrams, which continue until May:
    A few of the current Blackpool and Barrow 185 services become Sprinter workings, but also Windermere loses its only direct service from the Airport (will start at Preston) and one of its two direct services to the Airport will be cut back to Preston (with no onward connecting service).

    Edit: From 11 July 2016, Diagram 5 is replaced by a Sprinter diagram. The 185 is presumably reassigned to partially replace 170 diagrams on South TPE. This will leave only 3x185 diagrams on Northern services for most of the day.
     
    Last edited: 6 Jul 2016
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  3. PHILIPE

    PHILIPE Established Member

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  4. Greybeard33

    Greybeard33 Established Member

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    I have now had a go at working out Northern's weekday 156 diagrams for the related Airport - Blackpool/Barrow services, from 16 May 2016. These are based on the current TPE diagrams that IrishDave worked out last year. Northern will have to find two more 156s from somewhere for these services from May 2016, making a total of 8.

    Edit: Since first posted, the diagrams appear to have been simplified to remove interworking with the Cumbrian Coast services, giving 8 diagrams all day until 08 July. From 11 July 185 Diagram 5 in Post #1 is withdrawn and its early morning workings are replaced by an additional 156 Diagram 9. 156 Diagram 2 takes over the rest of the 185 diagram including its Windermere workings. Diagram 9 in turn takes over Diagram 2's afternoon/evening workings.

    Edit 26 May 2016: Diagrams 2 & 9 amended again - 1C72, 1025 PRE - WDM 1142, 11 July to 9 Dec, has now been deleted from the WTT and journey planners. Diagram 2 previously assumed to work 1C72 from 11 July, now appears to remain coupled to Diagram 1 all day with no change in July. Currently no working in the WTT to get Diagram 9 (or a different unit) to Windermere to work subsequent services.

    Edit 22 June 2016: Diagram 9 amended yet again. 1N25 was 09:17 BIF - PRE 10:41 - brought forward to enable the unit to arrive just in time to work a reinstated 1C72, but with a 10:29 departure time from Preston as for the previous 185 Diagram 5 (was originally to be 10:25).

    Edit 24 July 2016: Timings and headcodes updated. Diagram 5 curtailed and Diagram 10 added (splitting from/joining to Diagram 4 for interworkings with other 156 services).

    Diagram 1+2
    5U54 (ECS) 07:00 Blackpool North CMD - Blackpool North 07:05
    1U54 07:17 Blackpool North - Manchester Oxford Road 08:26
    1C51 08:31 Manchester Oxford Road - Barrow-in-Furness 10:54
    1N28 11:13 Barrow-in-Furness - Preston 12:40
    5C55 (ECS) 15:27 Preston - Manchester Oxford Road 16:11
    1C55 17:14 Manchester Oxford Road - Barrow-in-Furness 19:34
    5N55 (ECS) Barrow-in-Furness 19:37 - Barrow CS 19:40

    Diagram 3+8
    5U52 (ECS) 05:13 Barrow CS - Barrow-in-Furness 05:16
    1U52 05:23 Barrow-in-Furness - Manchester Airport 07:47
    1N55 07:57 Manchester Airport - Blackpool North 09:33
    1U59 09:40 Blackpool North - Manchester Airport 11:22
    1N61 11:29 Manchester Airport - Blackpool North 13:03
    1U67 13:40 Blackpool North - Manchester Airport 15:20
    1N65 15:29 Manchester Airport - Blackpool North 17:06
    1U74 17:12 Blackpool North - Manchester Airport 18:53
    1N71 19:29 Manchester Airport - Blackpool North 21:03
    1U84 21:40 Blackpool North - Manchester Airport 23:15
    1N77 23:30 Manchester Airport - Blackpool North 00:57
    5N77 (ECS) 01:08 Blackpool North - Blackpool North CMD 01:13

    Diagram 4
    5U53 (ECS) 06:19 Blackpool North CMD - Blackpool North 06:24 (with 5)
    1U53 06:35 Blackpool North - Manchester Airport 08:17 (with 5)
    1N56 08:25 Manchester Airport - Blackpool North 10:03 (with 5)
    1U61 10:40 Blackpool North - Manchester Airport 12:22 (with 5)
    1N62 12:29 Manchester Airport - Blackpool North 14:03 (with 5)
    1U69 14:40 Blackpool North - Manchester Airport 16:17 (with 5)
    1N66 16:29 Manchester Airport - Blackpool North 18:03 (with 5)
    1U77 18:40 Blackpool North - Manchester Airport 20:22
    1N72 20:29 Manchester Airport - Blackpool North 22:03
    1U86 22:45 Blackpool North - Manchester Airport 00:24 (with 10)
    5K86 (ECS) 00:27 Manchester Airport - Manchester Piccadilly 00:40 (with 10)

    Diagram 5
    5U53 (ECS) 06:19 Blackpool North CMD - Blackpool North 06:24 (with 4)
    1U53 06:35 Blackpool North - Manchester Airport 08:17 (with 4)
    1N56 08:25 Manchester Airport - Blackpool North 10:03 (with 4)
    1U61 10:40 Blackpool North - Manchester Airport 12:22 (with 4)
    1N62 12:29 Manchester Airport - Blackpool North 14:03 (with 4)
    1U69 14:40 Blackpool North - Manchester Airport 16:17 (with 4)
    1N66 16:29 Manchester Airport - Blackpool North 18:03 (with 4)
    2E82 18:21 Blackpool North - Huddersfield 20:42
    (Continues on other services)

    Diagram 6+7
    5N53 (ECS) 05:49 Manchester Piccadilly - Manchester Airport 06:06
    1N53 06:18 Manchester Airport - Blackpool North 07:53
    1U57 08:40 Blackpool North - Manchester Airport 10:21
    1N59 10:29 Manchester Airport - Blackpool North 12:03
    1U65 12:40 Blackpool North - Manchester Airport 14:22
    1N64 14:29 Manchester Airport - Blackpool North 16:03
    1U73 16:35 Blackpool North - Manchester Airport 18:17
    1N69 18:29 Manchester Airport - Blackpool North 20:03
    1U81 20:40 Blackpool North - Manchester Airport 22:15
    1N76 22:29 Manchester Airport - Blackpool North 00:03
    5N76 (ECS) 00:10 Blackpool North - Blackpool North CMD 00:15

    Diagram 9* from 11 July 2016 only
    5N45 (ECS) 06:05 Barrow CS - Barrow-in-Furness 06:08
    1C49 06:15 Barrow-in-Furness - Lancaster 07:18
    1C50 07:33 Lancaster - Barrow-in-Furness 08:38
    1N25 08:50 Barrow-in-Furness - Preston 10:23
    (11 minute dwell at Lancaster to allow VT 9M51 GLC - EUS to overtake)
    1C72 10:29 Preston - Windermere 11:42
    (10 minute dwell at Lancaster to allow VT 1S45 EUS - GLC to overtake)
    2C09 Windermere 11:47 - Oxenholme 12:07
    (Oxenholme - Windermere Shuttle)
    1N36 18:03 Windermere - Preston 19:26
    1C57 20:08 Preston - Millom 22:01
    2C32 22:09 Millom - Barrow-in-Furness 22:42
    5C32 (ECS) 22:43 Barrow-in-Furness - Barrow CS 22:46

    * Edit 20 July 2016: janb has advised in Post #60 that Northern plans to strengthen Diagram 9 in September 2016, by coupling a 153 to the 156.

    Diagram 10
    (From other services)
    2N97 17:23 Manchester Victoria - Blackpool North 18:47
    1U86 22:45 Blackpool North - Manchester Airport 00:24 (with 4)
    5K86 (ECS) 00:27 Manchester Airport - Manchester Piccadilly 00:40 (with 4)

    Until the May timetable change the diagrams remain more or less as per the following post:

     
    Last edited: 24 Jul 2016
  5. bnsf734

    bnsf734 Member

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    Thank you for working all these diagrams out.

    Diagram 9 I observed the other day as originating on 2C42 0938 Carlisle to Lancaster arriving at 1311. From RTT it starts as 2C35 0651 Barrow to Carlisle arriving at 0924.

    EDIT just realised you are talking about the diagrams after May 2016 - I cant work out where it comes from either!
     
    Last edited: 29 Mar 2016
  6. Greybeard33

    Greybeard33 Established Member

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    I now think it comes from 2C52 10:09 Barrow - Lancaster 11:18. This unit never seems to leave Platform 2 - there must be a shunt move out the Up Fast that is not yet shown on RTT.

    The diagram originates from Barrow CS and spends the first part of its day on the Lancaster-Morecambe shuttle before working 2C43 08:23 Morecambe - Barrow 09:50.
     
  7. DanTrainMan185

    DanTrainMan185 Established Member

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    I shall be avoiding Sprinters on Blackpool services. I will stick to the 185 diagrams when I go! :)
     
  8. nickw1

    nickw1 Member

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    This being the 1803 presumably; funnily enough I was on that the other night, was well-used though being the Bank Holiday probably helped.

    Currently this waits at Preston for 17 mins to allow a Blackpool service to run ahead of it from Preston to Manchester. If anything I'd have thought there'd be a good case to not only retain this service (it facilitates the return leg of day trips from the Manchester area to the Lakes) but speed it up and run it in the path of the preceding Blackpool service (1905 from Preston, rather than 1915) - at least in the summer months
     
    Last edited: 30 Mar 2016
  9. Greybeard33

    Greybeard33 Established Member

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    See http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=2507336#post2507336 and following posts for previous discussion of this service.

    From Dec 2017 Arriva is required to provide 4 trains per day direct from Windermere to Manchester Airport via Wigan North Western. By then, sufficient diesel stock should hopefully have been freed by completion of electrification from Blackpool North to Manchester via Chorley.
     
  10. TBirdFrank

    TBirdFrank Member

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    If I were a Blackpool resident or,better, a local or regional politician I would have the TOC management on my mat before the sun has gone down.

    150s and 156s to Blackpool are an utter disgrace, noisy, cramped, customer unfriendly and such a step back from the 185s especially with their first class sections and are simply a slap in the face to the people of the Fylde.

    The CAF units, if they are anything like the units in Northern Ireland will be far better then either of the above, but will still not be a patch on 185s and as for 319s - well - words fail me!

    Coast to City services demand far more than they are getting otherwise for all its faults the car will start to win hands down - if it has not already done so!
     
  11. geoffk

    geoffk Member

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    I had a trip from Preston to Windermere yesterday. The 185 in the new livery was working to Blackpool and it was interesting to see the combined Mcr Airport - Glasgow/Barrow, now of course run by two different TOCs. No doubt the stock and crew workings for the three services taken over by ARN from TPE will take a while to disentangle.

    Will ARN have a dedicated fleet of 185s? If so, First Class can be declassified and the on-train announcements changed to refer to ARN. I can't see 156s running to Windermere, with their 75 mph max speed on a lengthy WCML run, so 185s will stay on this and presumably Barrow.
     
  12. PHILIPE

    PHILIPE Established Member

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    See Post #1 - Windermeres 185s
     
  13. Greybeard33

    Greybeard33 Established Member

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    I think what you saw must have been a portion working to Blackpool and Barrow - both now Northern services. I do not think the Glasgow services have ever been portion worked.

    The 185s hired by Northern will still be interworked on TPE's own services, as can be seen from the diagrams in Post #1, so will retain the TPE livery and layout and vary from day to day, like the 156s TPE previously hired from Northern.
     
  14. JaJaWa

    JaJaWa Established Member

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    They're called Northern, not ARN.
     
  15. Thomas6187

    Thomas6187 Member

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    Until May the 13:00 from Manchester Airport-Glasgow, on Saturday, is booked as a 6 car until Preston. The rear set then goes to Barrow
     
  16. geoffk

    geoffk Member

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    Thanks for info. Not ARN, then - I did wonder whether this form would be used. Yes definitely a Glasgow and Barrow, 1402 at Preston, split there.
     
  17. robbeale

    robbeale Member

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    Station and train staff on the WDM line have told me that the WDM service from May will be a 158 on the morning and evening services (same diagram) and a 156 on the middle shift which may have to be two sets joined together.

    Who knows, they may be winding me up but 4 different people have told me as such.
     
    Last edited: 4 Apr 2016
  18. PHILIPE

    PHILIPE Established Member

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    They are all timed for 100 mph so I think you can rule 156s out.
     
  19. Greybeard33

    Greybeard33 Established Member

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    Thread title corrected. The company name is in fact Arriva Rail North Ltd., but it now seems clear that Northern not ARN is to be the usual abbreviation.
    Apologies, I stand corrected.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    See also this post on the Windermere thread:
    Maybe the Windermere services have to have a 100mph timing load because the Track Access Application (which Northern Rail raised on behalf of Arriva, back in December), specified that Northern would use 185s? But at that time the final rolling stock solution had probably not been agreed between TPE, Arriva and DfT. The paths for the WCML workings in Diagram 5 of the OP (which includes the "middle shift" Windermere shuttle) have been arranged so that they will run well ahead of the next following express. So they could be retimed for 75mph without impacting other TOCs' services. And this diagram is stand-alone - it starts and finishes at Barrow and does not include portion working. Might Northern be able to temporarily change the timing loads using the Short Term Plan procedure, pending the December timetable change, so that 2x156, or maybe a 156+153 combo, could take over this diagram?

    However, Diagram 2, which includes the morning and evening shuttles, couples to Diagram 6 at Preston to provide the 10:56 direct service from Windermere to the Airport. At other times of day, Diagram 6 couples to Diagrams 4 & 7, which interwork with TP 185 services. So it is difficult to see how Diagram 2 could switch to a 158 before the December timetable change.

    Even if just Diagram 5 switched, so that Northern used two less 185s than now, Northern would have to transfer at least three, maybe four DMUs from other services. Implying an inward cascade of replacement DMUs from some other TOC??
     
  20. robbeale

    robbeale Member

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    That sounds complicated! To be honest, the staff were unsure when these changes would take place, so December it may be. They all did agree that Windermere will lose the 185's in lieu of Sprinters before receving the electric trains......eventually.

    As a daily user of OXN - WDM I think the majority of services will be served sufficiently by a 3 carriage 158. A 2 car set or a 156 would often be too small with all the tourist and their luggage.
    A lot of people take their bikes (there's often at least 4 on the 0827 ex OXN) and the 185s are good for that as they have the rarely used disabled area as well.
    Anyway, we will see what happens!
     
  21. Greybeard33

    Greybeard33 Established Member

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    I have since noticed that, from the May timetable change, journey planners no longer offer first class tickets on the "middle shift" Windermere services, whereas first class is still available for the morning and evening services. This seems to confirm that Diagram 2 will remain a 185, but Diagram 5 will become Sprinter-operated, even though RTT shows timing loads for a 100mph DMU.
     
  22. Solent&Wessex

    Solent&Wessex Established Member

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    Looking at the traincrew diagrams, it would seem that all the Windermere services are booked for 185s from the May timetable change until at least mid-June.
     
  23. Greybeard33

    Greybeard33 Established Member

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    Thanks. The TfGMC Local Rail Service Performance and Station Issues report, dated 29 March, contains the information that:
    So July seems to be a possible timeframe for the "Diagram 5" 185 to be withdrawn, unless departure of the 4x170s is delayed further.
     
  24. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    The timings could easily be wrong and be corrected before May.
     
  25. Greybeard33

    Greybeard33 Established Member

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    Now that RTT timetables for July are becoming available, they show that, from 11 July, the 185 "Diagram 5", including the "middle shift" Windermere services, is indeed replaced by a 75mph diagram, timed for Class 150/153/155/156. The timings of the WCML workings change considerably - e.g. 1N25 to Preston departs Barrow at 09:17 instead of 08:50. So there will be a change in the public timetable from this date.

    I have added the new Sprinter diagram to Post #3 as Diagram 10. There are no changes to the remaining Northern 185 diagrams from this date.

    Assuming that this diagram is a 2-car 156 (a reduction in capacity from the 3-car 185), Northern will then have redeployed 3x156s to replace 2x185s, compared with the current diagrams.
     
  26. robbeale

    robbeale Member

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    I have a feeling that when I was told 158's morning and night, 156's during the day, that they meant to say 185's morning and night. An easy mistake to make.

    And there I was taking pics of 185's on the branch as I thought we'd be losing them!

    Still it'll be good to get some different stock up here to break it up a bit.

    Sent from my D6603 using Tapatalk
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    In Diagram 10 on post 3 you have it arriving at PRE at 1041, then leaving for WDM at 1025?
    Unless I've read it wrong.

    Sent from my D6603 using Tapatalk
     
    Last edited: 14 Apr 2016
  27. Greybeard33

    Greybeard33 Established Member

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    Yes, well spotted - but I think it is Northern's mistake not mine! There is no previous arrival in Preston Platform 5 that could form the 1025, nor any departure after the 1041 arrival. I hope they sort it out before July, or the 1025 to Windermere will be very late!
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    I think I now understand - they seem to have split the 185 diagram between two 156 diagrams, so the timings do in fact work. Two of the pre-July 156 diagrams have been altered too, so there is no unit swap in the middle of the day. The second withdrawn 3-car 185 is effectively replaced by a single 2-car 156, so there will be a reduction in capacity on some services.

    Post #3 edited accordingly.
     
  28. Philip

    Philip Established Member

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    So will July see the first regular passenger train that isn't a 175 or 185 on the Branch since around 2001? Did Sprinters or 158s ever stand in for 175s or 185s in earlier years?
     
  29. robbeale

    robbeale Member

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    There's never been anything other than 175/185 in the 12 years I've been regularly using the line.

    Sent from my D6603 using Tapatalk
     
  30. Greybeard33

    Greybeard33 Established Member

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    I have not worked out the weekend diagrams, but from RTT it appears you will not have to wait until July to see Sprinters at Windermere. At weekends from 22-23 April until the end of May there is bustitution on the branch because of engineering works, but from 05 June the Sunday evening services are to be worked by a Sprinter, starting with the 18:41 from Oxenholme.

    Saturdays from 04 June there will be no direct services from Windermere to Manchester Airport versus two today, and only one the other way, versus two today. But all Saturday services remain 185 operated until 02 July; Saturdays from 09 July there will be a mix of Sprinter and 185 workings (a 185 will still work the service from the Airport).
     
  31. Greybeard33

    Greybeard33 Established Member

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    Since the above post, the 1025 Preston to Windermere, 11 July to 9 December, has been deleted from the Working Timetable and journey planners, although it is still in Table 82 of the eNRT. So my theory that the current 185 diagram would be split between the 156 Diagrams 2 and 9 now seems to be invalid - Post #3 edited again accordingly.

    Journey planners now indicate that there will be nearly a 2-hour gap between the 1033 and 1226 departures from Oxenholme to Windermere. There is no replacement ECS working to Windermere in the WTT to form the 1147 Windermere to Oxenholme, so it would seem that the Diagram 9 unit will have to be helicoptered from Preston to Windermere! I guess that an ECS working or workings might eventually be added, but we might have to wait till July to find out what will happen.
     

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