Northern Class 195: Construction/Introduction Updates

[507021]

What would make sense would be tarted-up 158s on Northern Connect (e.g. Windermere) and 195s on stopping services like the CLC, as the superior acceleration and door standbacks deal with overcrowding and EMU-style timetables with ease.

Yeah, I think that'd be a good idea to be fair.

 

[507021]

Don't quote me but I've heard rumours there is very little interest being shown in the EMR 156s. Northern would rather have 158s, ScotRail have enough and no one else operates them. One of the two ROSCOs at least is spending only the bare minimum on them.

Oh right, that's a surprise.

 

[JonathanH]

Oh right, that's a surprise.

...but seems plausible as there is now a realisation that 75mph units get in the way of faster trains even if the distance over which they share the faster tracks is short.

 

[js1000]

People commenting on the impressive acceleration of class 195s should perhaps bear in mind that most services are currently being driven with the train in Superpower mode. However, the default operating mode is Eco which gives substantially slower acceleration than Superpower. The units always default to Eco mode on setting up the cab as this is the intended normal operating mode. Superpower mode has to be manually selected. Once all the initial troubles are sorted out I suspect Northern will start looking at the fuel consumption figures and I wouldn't be at all surprised to find all three of the enhanced performance modes either being disabled or requiring special permission for their use.

Doubt it. The timetable is now so tight on many of the routes operated by the 195s it needs all the acceleration it can give. Northern will be looking at the 331s acceleration and thinking they can potentially reduce diagrams/units on some routes which are operated by the 319/323s. Would be surprised if they're looking in the same way with the 195s when compared to Pacers and 150s.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The Class 195 units that I have travelled upon seemed quite comfortable with handling the speed requirements of the WCML from Wigan North Western to Lancaster that only has the single stop in-between at Preston.

 

[Llama]

That another bad design fault then or sets unable to run on one or two engines only. I'm sure they have auto shutdown when stabled with no drivers key in desk.

Why were these not built as diesel electric traction as opposed to that self change auto gearbox? Costs perhaps!

195s need the transmission isolating on a vehicle to disengage it if that vehicle's engine isn't running. If this wasn't done the transmission would end up being damaged before very long. The unit would restrict traction power to ~37mph anyway to try to protect itself/reduce damage if the relevant warnings were ignored.

 

[fulmar]

The Class 195 units that I have travelled upon seemed quite comfortable with handling the speed requirements of the WCML from Wigan North Western to Lancaster that only has the single stop in-between at Preston.

The difference in power between Eco and Superpower modes has no impact on top speed, except on rising gradients in a few places. It just takes a lot longer to get there in Eco mode. You can of course get there quicker in Superpower mode if you are happy to burn more fuel.

 

[EE Andy b1]

195s need the transmission isolating on a vehicle to disengage it if that vehicle's engine isn't running. If this wasn't done the transmission would end up being damaged before very long. The unit would restrict traction power to ~37mph anyway to try to protect itself/reduce damage if the relevant warnings were ignored.

Ok thanks for that.
There a bit like the old conventional DMUs then where when an engine was isolated you had a long metal fork to disengage the manual gearbox. Old tech.
They should have gone down the diesel electric route.

 

[Llama]

Kind of. They're an odd setup, the lube oil for the transmission comes from the engine sump, hence the need to isolate the ARG ('axle reverse gear') if an engine shuts down in service. There's an ARG air isolation cock outside under the solebar and it also needs isolating electrically via the TCMS.

 

[AM9]

195s need the transmission isolating on a vehicle to disengage it if that vehicle's engine isn't running. If this wasn't done the transmission would end up being damaged before very long. The unit would restrict traction power to ~37mph anyway to try to protect itself/reduce damage if the relevant warnings were ignored.

It seems that EE Andy b1 has brought up some further disadvantages of the simple diesel-mechanical system of the class 195s. So we have a trains that can't run with less than it's full complement of engines, and when it is being towed, cannot (easily) go faster than 37mph, as well as being a CO2 generator for the next 35 years.
It may have been cheap, but it doesn't look like value for money. Just what criteria were used to choose this particular product?

 

[The Northern Star]

Some extra ASDO testing for Chester platforms and Ellesmere Port.... Monday 25th....

3Z01 2309 Allerton Depot - Chester:
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/S11700/2019-11-25/detailed

3Z02 0041 Chester - Warrington Bank Quay:
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/S11701/2019-11-26/detailed

3Z03 0126 Warrington Bank Quay - Ellesmere Port:
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/S11702/2019-11-26/detailed

3Z04 0202 Ellesmere Port - Earlestown:
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/S11703/2019-11-26/detailed

3Z05 0258 Earlestown - Chester:
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/S11704/2019-11-26/detailed

3Z06 0426 Chester - Chester (Platform 6/5/4/3A):
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/S11705/2019-11-26/detailed

3Z07 0531 Chester - Allerton Depot:
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/S11706/2019-11-26/detailed

 

[Grumpy Git]

........................................................
It may have been cheap, but it doesn't look like value for money. Just what criteria were used to choose this particular product?

You answered your own question.

 

[AM9]

You answered your own question.

So these brand new trains don't look good for anybody. Which RoSco do they belong to?

 

[Grumpy Git]

So these brand new trains don't look good for anybody. Which RoSco do they belong to?

I disagree, they are light years better than the 14x / 15x they are replacing.

 

[AM9]

I disagree, they are light years better than the 14x / 15x they are replacing.

Yes they should be, but Northern (or some other TOC) will be reliant on these trains for decades, whereas the old BR DMUs will all be scrapped in 5-10 years and they have already given a 'service' for 30+ years.

 

[Grumpy Git]

The big problem is that all UK lines should have had OLE installed years ago. It's farcical that we have so many non-electrified lines in the UK. But that is one of the UK's problems, too many here think somebody else should pay for stuff, particularly those that have the most.

I hear wealthy people say "why should my taxes subsidise the railways, when I don't use them" (similarly they tend to have the same outlook about the NHS when they use private heath), its seems to go right over their heads that it just might help their employees get to work (and recover from illness)?

 

[AM9]

The big problem is that all UK lines should have had OLE installed years ago. It's farcical that we have so many non-electrified lines in the UK. But that is one of the UK's problems, too many here think somebody else should pay for stuff, particularly those that have the most. ...

Whilst I agree that much more should be electrified than is currently so, but these trains were chosen because they had similarities between the DMU and EMU variants, (I think they can even operated coupled together). The fact is though that they have issues with doors that could be a hazard to passengers, they can create severe operational disruption of all engines aren't able to run and despite their claimed commonality with 331s, they don't have much commonality in physical parts apart from the bodies and seats. So both the specifier and the manufacturer are found wanting.

 

[Llama]

Whilst I agree that much more should be electrified than is currently so, but these trains were chosen because they had similarities between the DMU and EMU variants, (I think they can even operated coupled together). The fact is though that they have issues with doors that could be a hazard to passengers, they can create severe operational disruption of all engines aren't able to run and despite their claimed commonality with 331s, they don't have much commonality in physical parts apart from the bodies and seats. So both the specifier and the manufacturer are found wanting.

195s and 331s can't operate together. The mechanical parts of the couplers are compatible but the electrical connections certainly aren't, so the only occasion they would ever couple is to assist a failed unit, max 5mph to clear the line, no brake continuity.

 

[EE Andy b1]

...they are light years better than the 14x / 15x they are replacing.

I totally agree, they are far better than anything Northern have had in 30 years or so, far from perfect like any new rolling stock.
Corners have been cut in the wrong places, the ride quality is not 30 years better and as I was trying to make a point in these environmental critical times, the underfloor tech is old tech and not the best for the next 25 or so years.

Can the 195s be converted to electric units with ease in the future if electrification ever gets further go aheads?

 

[AM9]

I totally agree, they are far better than anything Northern have had in 30 years or so, far from perfect like any new rolling stock.
Corners have been cut in the wrong places, the ride quality is not 30 years better and as I was trying to make a point in these environmental critical times, the underfloor tech is old tech and not the best for the next 25 or so years.

Can the 195s be converted to electric units with ease in the future if electrification ever gets further go aheads?

Well as much as almost any train can be converted to another type. All that would be retained would be the body shells of the driving ends minus their wiring, and the unpowered bogies. For a 3-car EMU, the centre car would need to be replaced by a car with a pantograph well and provision for HV wiring. Not really worth the effort, especially after 10 years or so.
Had the whole thing been planned, it could have been so much better and no more expensive.

 

[Llama]

The poor ride quality of the CAF units is certainly bizarre, no other new stock bar CAFs is anything like as bad.

I can see the 195s having to be extensively re-engineered far before an equivalent unit would normally be.

 

[Grumpy Git]

I've been in three or four 195,1xx and not noticed any noise, but the back cab-end of 195,002 leaving MIA on Friday was incredibly rough over points and generally noisy on normal track (but not track noise). It was like a load of the ancillary kit underfloor was not bolted down.

On an unrelated note, does anyone know why the zig-zag welding on the rail-head at MIA platform 2 comes so far out from the buffer stop? The drivers always run onto it for several yards and it cannot do the wheels much good surely?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The poor ride quality of the CAF units is certainly bizarre, no other new stock bar CAFs is anything like as bad.

I dunno, I was being thrown all over the place in a 350/1 earlier on, and that's on high quality track on the WCML, not the typical Northern ramshackle setup.

 

[Llama]

On an unrelated note, does anyone know why the zig-zag welding on the rail-head at MIA platform 2 comes so far out from the buffer stop? The drivers always run onto it for several yards and it cannot do the wheels much good surely?

Platform 2 was the old platform 1, likewise platform 3 was platform 2 and they were the original platforms when opened in the mid '90s. The eutectic strip was put there for a reason, it won't do the wheelsets any harm though.

 

[superkev]

195 126 and 127 are at Huddersfield presumably on training.
K

 

[superkev]

Have any more 195s been delivered recently. I have 2 car 331 004, 005, 006, 010, 011 and 014 to 025 and 4 car 131, 132, 133 as still outstanding with a number delivered but not yet in use for some reason.
K

 

[Jamesrob637]

195129 was pottering around Wigan today

 

[Llama]

Probably driver practical handling as part of the training, it happens regularly - usually on a Tuesday, Thursday or Saturday and also depends when there's a course on, there aren't three courses a week at Wigan.

 

[J-2739]

Hello.

Are the Class 195s still targeted to enter service on the Leeds-Nottingham/Lincoln C. lines by the 15th December?

 

[js1000]

The poor ride quality of the CAF units is certainly bizarre, no other new stock bar CAFs is anything like as bad.

I can see the 195s having to be extensively re-engineered far before an equivalent unit would normally be.

In my experience, the 195 ride quality is only truly bad when travelling over junctions and where the line/ballast requires replacement. Manchester Piccadilly from the south is particularly bad.