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Northern Class 195: Construction/Introduction Updates

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Andyh82

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I think it's so they can run 5 car formations during peak instead of 4 (God forbid if the 3 car unit fails). Should have ordered them as 2, 3 & 4 car sets.
Seems far too complicated, plus surely they aren’t going to have the 2 cars in the depot waiting until peak time?

Why not just run the full length train all day, so off peak passengers have space, and that includes Saturdays as well (assuming there is a service on a Saturday that is)
 
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JOHNR150

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Has anyone got an identikit parade of seat types? When you don't know your ironing board from your grammar, what can you turn to?

You can turn to a rail system that is operated by the private sector yet has a £5 billion plus debt, far higher than under BR years. Please forgive the grammar I went to school in the Uk.
 

Redmike

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Great! more 2 car sets - that should help clear the crowds on Platform 13 and 14 at Piccadilly.
 

507021

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I think it's so they can run 5 car formations during peak instead of 4 (God forbid if the 3 car unit fails). Should have ordered them as 2, 3 & 4 car sets.

Two car units were ordered with the future in mind as well as now. In the future, I think it's highly likely the two car 195s will be cascaded to operate on quieter branch line routes which are unlikely to be electrified and don't need anything larger than a two car unit.
 

LOL The Irony

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Two car units were ordered with the future in mind as well as now. In the future, I think it's highly likely the two car 195s will be cascaded to operate on quieter branch line routes which are unlikely to be electrified and don't need anything larger than a two car unit.
Well why don't they throw in an extra carriage in each one and order the 2 cars for later in the franchise. Or is it the now part of whacking them on 3 car units during peak?
 

Bletchleyite

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Well I wouldn't want it cycling through all the gears all of the time. Also why does a train need a six speed gearbox? Acceleration?

Why would it cycle through the gears while running at 100mph?

It needs it so the engine can always run at the most efficient speed, same as a car. The mechanical transmission is more efficient as it doesn’t waste energy heating up hydraulic fluid below 40mph like Voith equipped ex BR DMUs do. And it has proven reliable in the Class 172s.
 

LOL The Irony

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Why would it cycle through the gears while running at 100mph?

It needs it so the engine can always run at the most efficient speed, same as a car. The mechanical transmission is more efficient as it doesn’t waste energy heating up hydraulic fluid below 40mph like Voith equipped ex BR DMUs do. And it has proven reliable in the Class 172s.
Well okay but 185's do well with half as many gears and supposedly de-tuned engines.
 

507021

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Well why don't they throw in an extra carriage in each one and order the 2 cars for later in the franchise. Or is it the now part of whacking them on 3 car units during peak?

A pair of two car units offer more operational flexibility than a single four car unit. A two car unit can be used by itself, with another two car unit to create a four car train or with a three car unit to create a five car train.

There are options available to Northern for more carriages, one of which includes extending the 331/1s to five car units.
 

Nymanic

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I think it's so they can run 5 car formations during peak instead of 4 (God forbid if the 3 car unit fails). Should have ordered them as 2, 3 & 4 car sets.

I'm not sure if the stock numbers add up to allow that many 4/5/6 car 195 workings (not that I've crunched the numbers, however). And many Northern stations too small for a 6-car service presently won't fit a 5 either. SDO is a workaround in places, but not universally.

The lack of corridor connections is baffling from a revenue collection point of view, but I wonder if either the corridor connection design wasn't available from CAF in early 2016, or Arriva's order has had to be so basic and no-frills that the cost of connections would have pushed the provincial envelope too far. While no slight on CAF's build quality, any new stock going to Northern would almost inevitably come courtesy of the lowest bidder.

It'd be nice if modified cabs could be retrofitted with connections later, but there's not a chance of that. It'd either be a cascade of non-gangwayed 195s to lesser routes, or - more realistically - make do as is. Plus the 195/331 cabs look very ample from a driving perspective, and I wouldn't get far trying to take those away from drivers!

If CAF were able to make inroads with a bimode 195/331, especially one interworkable with the stock on order, they might just find a use. Even a 90/75mph top speed on diesel could be sufficient.
 

Nymanic

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On what route at what time of day is a 2 car train 195 going to be sufficient and not look like yet another tiny Northern train trundling in already almost full before you even get on.

Off the top of my head, the only Connect route I can imagine would suffice with 2-car 195s is Sheffield to Lincoln - and even that's just off-peak, excluding the Leeds/Bradford stretch, and ignoring any potential increases in patronage.

Liverpool to Manchester Airport might also just cope outside the peaks, but I'm sure many of the standing passengers would much prefer the 2x156 convoy that we regularly see today.
 

PomWombat

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I’d forgotten half were going to be just 2 cars. That’s even worse.

While I do partly agree with you (Waterloo just got rebuilt to deal with 10-car inner suburbans!), you also have to consider the capacity of those cars. Anywhere receiving a 195 (or, to be fair, any of the sprinters) in place of a Pacer is going to see an increase in capacity of maybe 25-30% with no change in the count of carriages.

Judging from the franchise agreement, Northern will only increase their number of units by around 5% by 2020, but increase the number of carriages by 18%, increase the number of seats by 24%, and increase overall capacity by 31%. There's a lot of gain from the fact that pacers are just, well, small.

Having said that, is it really wise that, while gaining 25 new 2-car 195s, Northern will lose 24 2-car 150s in order to create 16 3-car units. Wouldn't it have been better to keep the 24 150s as 2-car, and change that part of the 195 order to 16 3-car 195s instead?
 

Spartacus

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"Should have ordered more/longer units" has me wondering where this magic money tree is, when at the time most people were surprised to hear Northern were actually ordering new units full stop and not just relying on cascades like usual. With CAF opening a British plant I can't see extending them in the future being much of a problem IF the money is there and IF the Government don't mess it up, which is after all the real reason for much of TPE's overcrowding problems, having 4th cars then 172s cancelled while having to cover additional services to Scotland with their existing fleet.
 

notlob.divad

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Given at least some 331's will be at Allerton. I have a feeling some will go through Liverpool at some point. Be that from Manchester Airport or from Blackpool. It seems at this point to be a very bold assumption to say x, y or z will definetly not get new units. Things we know are:
331s have to run where fizzy kniting is strung up.
Connect services will be run by a mixture of the new EMUs, DMUs and refurbished 158s.
A selection of other services will be run by the new units.
Beyond that I am inclined not to rule anything out.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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I did here a whisper that 331's would work the odd Crewe to Liverpool via Manchester Airport service. I don't know if that's still going ahead.
If 331s are going to be based at Allerton they will find it hard not to do some turns from Liverpool.

The 2/3-car 195 thing: W&B have gone the same way for their CAF units (though sadly with gangways).
The 175 fleet (ordered by FNW) was the same.
The plan was 2-car on local lines, 3-car on regional, doubled up (4, 5 or 6) in the peaks and on core sections.
Of course, it ended up with 27 single units with 2-car turning up on what had originally been planned as double sets.
Part of that was of course the dismal reliability of the 175s in the early days, but ATW continues the practice to spread the fleet as thinly as possible.
 

jonesy3001

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If the 331s are replacing the 321,322 and 323s they're going to be based at both allerton and neville hill(?) depots with some probably stabled in the manchester area, like the 195s are going to based at newton heath when they've built the new depot(any pics by the way).
 
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